JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[Frankenstein]

Awesome aerodynamics, dont you dare call it a bird, call it a "Dragon" instead, after ten years this dragon will rule the skies inshaAllah

 

[WAQAS119]

This is ridiculous Mig 29 is twin engine aircraft. It will be unwise to compare these two aircraft's. But if said so, jf-17 is single engine aircraft therefore, the payload it will take will be much less. The other thing is that its thrust/weight ratio will directly depend upon the engine it carries. Currently it is said that the engine of JF-17 will be RD-93 which is used as one of the two engines in Mig-29 so in principle JF-17 should have atleast half the weight of MiG-29. JF-17 will be primarily used as air superiority aircraft on the other hand MiG-29 is a multi-role aircraft. The main advantages JF-17 will have over MiG-29 is the low maintenance cost and new airframe with composite materials that's all.

Mr. Defence Analyst I am really impressed with you and your post.

As I caught you red handed!!!!!!

you copied it from here::::

 

[TaimiKhan]

Pls Speak facts .

Spoken a lot of times, with no end result or success.

Even this time, its not gonna be fruitful.

 

[alibaz]

Mr. Defence Analyst I am really impressed with you and your post.

As I caught you read handed!!!!!!

you copied it from here::::

Well caught, Love it
Naqal karta hai

May be he uses some other name on other forum

 

[TaimiKhan]

Everyone knows, Mig-29 is superior in lot of things when compared to JF-17, especially the newer versions.

But its not about just specifications, how much thrust, how much weapon load, how much range it can go to etc etc etc.

These are some other factors also (repeatedly highlighted by members) which are to be considered when operators go for an aircraft.

Based on these factors, JF-17 is competing with Mig-29 without taking into consideration the thrust, load, range, etc etc.

So it would be helpful if members talk with regard to these other factors, rather then bringing in Zhuk Phuk, 2-engines, load, etc etc etc.

 

[muse]

Since, a lot of us here are newbies, what other way to learn than Search on Google, Read up on the relevant Topics, and Use our Intellect to discern the facts from the fabrications.

And by the way, you being a "Think Tank" should at least give us Indians some credit

I do give you guys a lot of credit - but some of you do not bring your A game - if you fimnd some Pakistanis saying it's good, some of you guys are automatically against it - it's just plain silly.

I asked you guys, if affordablity is a good thing for air forces ? Is it a net positive? ---- careful now, cuz it's a trick question, there is only one right answer - Obviously it's a good thing --- So what's the logic of opposing it????????

Does the thread say that JF17 is same as MiG29?? Does it say that it has the same avionics? same armaments?? All it says is that one Russian says that JF17 offers competative capablity at a more affordable price -- blame the Russian why blame anybody else??


What are you guys always so angry about, why are you guys ever ready to take offence even when you are not even involved?? No really, why?

Spoken a lot of times, with no end result or success.
Even this time, its not gonna be fruitful

Pay attention to the quote above, don't allow this impression to become pervasive. These comments are not oiffered by someone who does not weigh or consider his comments.

 

[inddef]

dude, someone should post a definitive price list on this very thread. how can you keep that out of a discussion like this?

 

[Donatello]

If JF17 is better than F16 stop buying F16. Just order more JF17.

As stupid as you might be, JF-17 has confirmed orders of 250 aircraft.

F-16s only 60+ so far.

 

[Donatello]

SU-30 and their deadly crashes? How many SU-30s have crashed? India has only had 2 crashes in 13 years and one was pilot error, besides those i don't know of any other SU-30's that crashed besides a few at airshows that were caused by pilot error, which would make the SU-30 one of the safest aircrafts today. I can also find videos of F-16's, F-14's, F-18, B-52's and Harriers crashing at airshows.

Most Mig-21 crashes have accured in the IAF and it is well know that half have been pilot error because the aircraft is difficult to fly and because the IAF lacks trainers, many more were from maintenance issues, bird strikes, and poor quality spares.

The Mig-23 have been retired from the Russian airforce for a long time, so the once that are crashing are due to the fact that they have old and unreliable engines, the older the aircraft/engine the higher the attrition rate, if you don't beleive me there has been 23 F-16 crashes in one year, that was back in 1988, so the older the aircraft, the higher the attrition.

Out of the thousands of MIG 21 made, probably more crashed in Soviet union but no one got to know of them because of Iron Curtain.

I am not going to say that IAF is so inefficient that only they had such large crashes.

 

[inddef]

Please ban Indians members for wasting our times. Use Google or find previous threads thousands discussions.

Otherwise, keep shut up and grow up!

since the numbers of posts are in thousands, thats exactly why a crisp summary would be useful.

 

[Hulk]

@Muse and Taimi while you have no problem when people ask question about things India buy why are you aggressive when we are asking questions or put our POV. I am not an expert so my questions might not be that techical, does that mean I cannot ask question. Someone said JF17 is better than F16 hence better than Mig29 and I want to know in what aspects it is better than F16? Radar does it have AESA? How about BVR? EW suit? Etc. Please help this civilian. I want to add that I feel JF17 is good plane but not convinced it is better than F16 and MIG29. China is neither ahead of US nor Russia in Aeronautical engineering. Hopefully people with less knowledge can ask simple questions without being threatened.

 

[Donatello]

@Muse and Taimi while you have no problem when people ask question about things India buy why are you aggressive when we are asking questions or put our POV. I am not an expert so my questions might not be that techical, does that mean I cannot ask question. Someone said JF17 is better than F16 hence better than Mig29 and I want to know in what aspects it is better than F16? Radar does it have AESA? How about BVR? EW suit? Etc. Please help this civilian. I want to add that I feel JF17 is good plane but not convinced it is better than F16 and MIG29. China is neither ahead of US nor Russia in Aeronautical engineering. Hopefully people with less knowledge can ask simple questions without being threatened.

The fall of soviet union resulted in scrapping of many funding programs. Because during the cold war government controlled all the funding and man power including intellectuals, these people had no means to do what was really needed.

After the fall of soviet union many of them left for USA, so you cannot compare USA Aeronautics or any engineering with Russian.

Look what they have right now.....T-50 thats still way off. USA has been playing with stealth since like 60s. Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics have no parallel either in China or Russia.


But because Chinese are investing heavily, they may be at par or above Russians. The reason why i say is that Russians shared their knowledge of aircraft like MIG 19/21 with Chinese way back which Helped China learn a lot.

Remember this sharing of knowledge was more than a mere license to manufacture which they give to HAL or some other nation.

 

[razgriz19]

During Saab Group's Press Coference in Farnborough Airshow, a journalist asked question from Saab authorities that CATIC and PAC are offereing same capabilities of Gripen in JFT at much lower cost, then how saab can justify Gripens cost. They were speech less.

well ONE VERY BIG FACT is that man power for a/c manufacturing is available at $10/hr in pakistan and im pretty sure its quite same in china.....

BUT in western countries its $45+/hr!!!

SEE THE DIFFERENCE!

(btw PAC uses retired PAF engineers/mechanics)

 

[Hulk]

I still did not have my answer how is it better than F16? If it was so good then why Pakistan was looking to add more F16 even after having JF17? Hope someone having knowledge of planes can help me understand. Maybe DBC or Gambit.

 

[anathema]

The question shouldn't be whether JF17 is close to Mig29 ..The question should be what would make JF17 compete with Mig 29. I can very well safely say that JF17 offers attractive capabilities with a affordable price. A rag tag african militia would look no further where the Generals are only interested in buying military products to boost their ego and keep it in reserve. However ignoring those nations , lets say a serious nation comes along to buy JF17 -

A vanilla JF17 (Block 1) is rumored to cost between 17-20 Million a piece (a figure thrown around in sinodefence). Now lets say you add all the goodies on the plane -- to make it a truly revered platform . For example - Aesa radar (selex no doubt) , MAWS , Advanced EW suite , IRST , recce pods ,etc....Pakistani's currently call this Block 2 JF17. Now should we consider the price would remain the same ? After adding all the goodies is it safe to say that price would be in the range of 25 - 30 million a piece (I am being fairly conservative) ? Now this is a Mig 29 territory --

Now the question that needs to be asked to ourselves are -- Will a nation prefer to buy a souped up JF17 ( a new fighter) or will nation buy Mig 29's which has years of operational service ? Furthermore it would be extremely prudent to think that by the time Block 2 of JF17 comes out -- Mig 29/35 would be the same, it would offer definetly better capabilities at that time.

Last question -- I asked this before also , but i didnt receive a convincing answer -- but i believe that is understandable for lack of information.

How can JF17 be so cheap ? A J10 is rumored to cost between 40-45 million dollars (sinodefence figure)....A J10 is single engined fighter , it shares practically the same avionics with JF17 -- infact based on the JF17 thread, its said that it is JF17 which is the test bed for avionics for J10 -- so if anything JF17's avionics are more advanced. Then why is the difference in price so high ? What additional capabilities J10 offers visa vi JF17 ? Shoudnt JF17 be a direct competitor to J10 instead of Mig29 hysteria ?

I have got some answers like J10 has composites and it uses AL engines and the high price is to compensate the R&D process...and i dont think that explains this high increase in price, i am not looking for an answer, i dont think internet warriors have access to these information -- this just a food for thought !!