JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[Quwa]

Hi Notorious Eagle,
Why are you claiming TWR of 1.1 for JF-17.
Refer below the Official specifications given by PAC Karma.
Now Lets calculate the TWR with given figures.

-TWR with Full afterburner= Max Combat Thrust/ (Empty weight + Internal Fuel)
= 19200/ (14520 +5100)
= 0.987 TWR

-TWR with Max Dry Thrust= Max Dry Thrust / (Empty weight + Internal Fuel)
= 11100/ (14520 + 5100)
= 0.565 TWR

Although it is often claim that the max speed of JF-17 is 1.8 mach. However the official manufacturer's document is stating it as 1.6 Mach .

Sadly...Pakistan is quite the backwards country...PAC did a shoddy job with its marketing of JF-17: For example, the figure of engine thrust with A/B is 1000 lbs higher than what Klimov lists. In Pakistan, we take the word of respected defence analysts and journalists such as Usman Shabbir and Usman Ansari more so than others...simple fact is that they routinely interview military officials and have consistently made factual claims.

According to Usman Ansari, JF-17 max speed is Mach 1.8 (link). That said, even PAC isn't clear on the top speed...it uses both Mach 1.6 and Mach 1.8 (link).

 

[mjnaushad]

Guys their is 1 more thing india has that JF 17 nor F16 has...this weapon has far more lethal then SU30 and MRCA. i bet it can bet the hell out of JF17

here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw0T0pejEN0...layer_embedded#!

 

[Dash]

I am going to say something that maybe i shouldn't but to shut some members once and for all...

The actual RCS of JFT is Classified but what i know, it is MUCH less than even the Falcons and goes in mere fractions! To such an extent that during simulated engagements, Falcon pilots were having difficulty to trace it ! The biggest contribution to this is the DSI intake which reduces the RCS to a great extent. About the radar, KLJ-7 is based on RP-35 zhemchug series which itself was specifically made as a high performance, multirole radar for Mig-35. Though still mechanical pulse doppler, it is one hell of a radar that includes technologies from IAFs favorite ELAT 2032 and RP-35s joined by Chinese expertise in electronics and PCB, micro processors. Keep under estimating this fighter folks, it will benefit us. On the topic, MIG-29 versions before the SMT are inferior to JFT in terms of avionics, radar, weapon and sensor fusion. This is a reality that India at the moment DOES NOT have any SMTS and till they do, theirs are inferior to JFT. Bitter pill to swallow for them but i trust my source a lot.

There is nothing called as RCS, even RCS of F-22 is classified, a better RCS can be augmented by a better atnenna power. Please dont bring RCS into calculation

 

[Dash]

Amazing to see that Indians are not believing Russians this time around but were jumping up and down when Russian said that Russian PAK-FA will excel it rivals in all departments. lol

Let me give a heads up-

Russians are saying this because its their business, so nothing wrong with it.
You cant win a war by just JF-17 for sure, neither it will give you air dominance over Mig-29 and they are not exactly air dominance fighters.
Anyway i am not against your JF-17 it may be a good fighter as its never left its field for a combat.

Where Migs and its radar are combat proven, if not directly but yet evolved from a cmpbat experience of earlier migs. China has no combat experience in using fighters.

Now if Russians planes and techs were inferior to others then iam sure US wouldnt have advanced si much in firepower and tech.

 

[mjnaushad]

Hi Notorious Eagle,

Although it is often claim that the max speed of JF-17 is 1.8 mach. However the official manufacturer's document is stating it as 1.6 Mach .

Max speed: 1350 KPH (Mach 1.8)

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....

 

[Quwa]

I think KARMA is producer so what picture Hindustan Fighter shows that is from KARMA not from PAC

PAC and Kamra AMF are the same thing dude.

 

[Hulk]

This thread has become timepass either we should have serious discussion with people having knowledge or just be in view mode. Although my knowledge is limited but as far I have read the arguments I feel JF17 can give tough time to Mig29(I know very little just my take on arguments).

 

[linkinpark]

Those who are claiming that Jf-17 has equivalent maneuverability as F-16s (citing PAF pilots) need to understand there are certain factors which determine maneuverability in close-combat fights. Based on data available it can be said that JF-17 will not be able to match F-16 maneuvers do to its low Thrust/weight ratio (0.95 of JF-17 Vs 1.09 of F-16), low max.speed (1.8mach of JF-17 vs 2+mach of F-16) and low load factor (8G of JF-17 vs 9G of F-16).

So it is a fallacious argument to say that JF-17 and Mig-29 are equal in terms of maneuverability by indirectly equating JF-17 to F-16's maneuverability.

 

[Hindustan Fighter]

Max speed: 1350 KPH (Mach 1.8)

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....

Hi mjnaushad,

1350 KPH = 1.1 Mach not 1.8 Mach

 

[was]

Those who are claiming that Jf-17 has equivalent maneuverability as F-16s (citing PAF pilots) need to understand there are certain factors which determine maneuverability in close-combat fights. Based on data available it can be said that JF-17 will not be able to match F-16 maneuvers do to its low Thrust/weight ratio (0.95 of JF-17 Vs 1.09 of F-16), low max.speed (1.8mach of JF-17 vs 2+mach of F-16) and low load factor (8G of JF-17 vs 9G of F-16).

So it is a fallacious argument to say that JF-17 and Mig-29 are equal in terms of maneuverability by indirectly equating JF-17 to F-16's maneuverability.

jft has a TWR of 1:.1:1

here i am qouting sir munirs post http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/61184-paf-jf-17-farnborough-air-show-2010-a-46.html
he asked this to jft pilot

Concerning the TWR, he said this after I specifically asked about the thrust of the RD-93. I was asking this because I still find it hard that the RD-93 is based on RD-33 Series 1. The pilot then said to me, "What I can tell you is the thrust-to-weight ratio. Do you know what that is?" I said "yes". And he said, the RD-93 will give the plane a TWR of over 1:.1.1." I started asking about the loading conditions (how much fuel and minutions) it will be carrying to come to this figure. He got his attention take away by other ppl and then they had to go and do a TV interview.

 

[linkinpark]

jft has a TWR of 1:.1:1

here i am qouting sir munirs post http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/61184-paf-jf-17-farnborough-air-show-2010-a-46.html
he asked this to jft pilot

Concerning the TWR, he said this after I specifically asked about the thrust of the RD-93. I was asking this because I still find it hard that the RD-93 is based on RD-33 Series 1. The pilot then said to me, "What I can tell you is the thrust-to-weight ratio. Do you know what that is?" I said "yes". And he said, the RD-93 will give the plane a TWR of over 1:.1.1." I started asking about the loading conditions (how much fuel and minutions) it will be carrying to come to this figure. He got his attention take away by other ppl and then they had to go and do a TV interview.

But the facts from PAC and the Kilmov are different. The thrust with after burner as listed by them is around 18,969 lbf. JF-17 with a loaded weight of 20062 lb, the thrust to weight ratio comes to 0.945 (18969lbf/20062lb) not even 1.0 and forget about 1.1.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....

 

[mjnaushad]

And also if JF-17 has high maneuverability as some people claim almost as good as F-16 and Mig-29, then it should be a able to do a simple vertical loop which is one of the important maneuver of dogfight. So, I request them to post video of such a maneuver done by JF-17. Until then people should stop claiming about JF-17s maneuverability.

FYI JF 17 is new platform and it just started to show in air shows.....No parade was held in country either because of situation inside the country from past few years....It was expected this time but cancelled because of flood and money was donated to flood which was going to spent on Parade.......

So if you want to self-satisfy then yes we dont have any video as yet. the one airshow JFT attended with static display was a huge hit. Wait till it fly in next airshow. But then i wont see you here i know......Because you are the same mentality member who was jumping with joy on engine news but later when news proved false he didn't even came near to comment......

 

[Donatello]

Is it just me, or that all of a sudden we have newbie Indian members....like loads of them in this thread?

 

[Areesh]

Fair enough. Come back when it shows such capabilities in an air show.

Well JF-17 is participating in Air show in China. So it would surely show it capabilities their. But even that won't keep the mouth of you guys shut so we would take the words of PAF pilots and other senior members about JF-17 maneuverability for now. Of course their input is much important than some dumb keyboard analysts from India.

 

[Areesh]

Is it just me, or that all of a sudden we have newbie Indian members....like loads of them in this thread?

Yeah I was also feeling the same. I think it is because of the title of the thread. For Indians every equipment in the arsenal of the Indian military is out of this world much above any human can even think of.

Mig29 is an alien technology how can you compare aircraft like JF-17 to it.