JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 - Updates

[SBD-3]

Jangibaaz---Mani---Hasnain,

Here is your assignment---switch ownership----you own the SU 30 and its package----now go to work and prove its worth against your enemy who is bragging about his JF17 which is yet to get an operational BVR missile----and a bvr capable operational radar as well.

Sir if you would read my post, I have not compared JFT viz a viz MKI, and it should logically not the case (unless im not playing HAWX or Over G fighters). The overall airstrategy is a jigsaw puzzle where JFT,AD,F-16,FC-20,AWACS everything has its place. The beauty of the puzzle is how well the parts fitt in it. Thats where I was focusing, JFT should be envisaged with a part of puzzle the capability to fill the shoes, same is the case with F-16 and FC-20. Its just like the more identical blocks you have, the more easy it becomes to solve the puzzle for a clear picture. This is to me, what sets apart PAF from IAF, a more focused airforce which knows what it wants, IAF, to my understanding, still lacks a strategic understanding what it wants from its fleet, they want every operational operational aircraft in this world, operating large number of specialized role aircrafts is a testiment to the fact that they will have every block with a different colour in their jigsaw. PAF's foucus is to negate the number games by operation efficiency, i.e. generation of more storie rate.With regards to BVR and Radar, let me put a simple question, it been a while we have purchases coming for MAR-1 and setting up operational theater for Wild Weasle operations, but have you seen a single picture of it being mounted on any PAF platform? If i correctly recall the words of a PAF expert, he favourable compared KLJ-7 to RC-400. What do you think TEF would have been doing at Kamra for last 4 Years, Having Joy rides on JFTs?

 

[rockstarIN]

Air Forces and aircraft development are moving forward, you have to spend enough to make sure your Aircraft also have equal on par advantage. You are not living in the past. I think you don't know even F-16s and Gripens have composites.
http://www.abdmatrix.com/phcdl/upload/design/Low-cost%20Composite%20Materials%20and%20Structures%20for%20Aircraft%20Applications.pdf

Even the commercial jets have composites in different variations. If you want 15million fighter, have to sacrifice such things.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Even the commercial jets have composites in different variations. If you want 15million fighter, have to sacrifice such things.

$15 million is baseline basic configuration export price tag the real price tag could go beyond $19 million, there is no room and no exception to sacrifice in modern era of fighter development to stay on par or ahead of your opposition may it be enemy or competitor you need to have everything.

 

[rockstarIN]

$15 million is baseline basic configuration export price tag the real price tag could go beyond $19 million, there is no room and no exception to sacrifice in modern era of fighter development to stay on par or ahead of your opposition may it be enemy or competitor you need to have everything.

China is charging around 10 million for K-8, 16 kN trainer.

Bolivia Orders K-8 Karakorum Jet Trainers from China | Defense Update

Will they export 85-95 kN fighter jet in 19 million?

 

[Luftwaffe]

China is charging around 10 million for K-8, 16 kN trainer.

Bolivia Orders K-8 Karakorum Jet Trainers from China | Defense Update

Will they export 85-95 kN fighter jet in 19 million?

And what are you trying to prove? Did I not say the full package Thunder will be above $18M+ the investment will increase as new Blocks comes out. $15M is the basic FC-1 with weapons and other customization the price will increase.

Do me a favor go back read JF-17 Threads.

 

[Storm Force]

Hasnain

Your statement bel;ow is so far off its childish

"This is to me, what sets apart PAF from IAF, a more focused airforce which knows what it wants, IAF, to my understanding,
still lacks a strategic understanding what it wants from its fleet, they want every operational operational aircraft in this world,

Words like PAF is more focused & india lacks strategic understanding is Couldnt be further from the truth

IAF future combat fleet is well planned out and is based upon 3 TYPES MULTI ROLE fighters from the 4 generation era.

SU30MMKI for long range operations tilting towards Air superiority
MMRCA for meduim range but focused on strike
LCA for short range GEARED to point defense and CAS

The 4th is the fifth generation element ie THE FGFA PAK FA

India is also deploying a vast multi layered AIR defense system fat more advanced and far more costly than anything else in the sub continent

starting with AKASH sam system coupled with india rajendra radar system indenguious origin already over 6 battlions deployed

meduim range is the joint indo israeli SAM system based on barak2 & sypder and this wheere the israeli green pine radars and aerostats radars come in.

finally the 3rd phase is again indengious and is INDIA ABM system which is being tested as we speak backed by indian satalite systems like instat series which have been around for over 15 years

The origin of indians air power build up will not change ITS the same tried trusted allies namely RUSSIA, FRANCE UK & ISRAEL.

The USA has got involved BUT not at the cutting edge end just yet.

Finally hasnain one last point ANY nation in this world that organise itself well enough to grow at 8% annually in this recssion and has £325 billion in forex CAN certainly plan and develope its AIR power doctrine effectively.

In constrast i look at Pakistan the nation, the people, the govt and i see caos and dysfunction from the ground up.

SO i ask myself " how can these people have a professional airforce when everthing else is fallling to peices"

 

[Bratva]

Hasnain

Your statement bel;ow is so far off its childish

"This is to me, what sets apart PAF from IAF, a more focused airforce which knows what it wants, IAF, to my understanding,
still lacks a strategic understanding what it wants from its fleet, they want every operational operational aircraft in this world,

Words like PAF is more focused & india lacks strategic understanding is Couldnt be further from the truth

IAF future combat fleet is well planned out and is based upon 3 TYPES MULTI ROLE fighters from the 4 generation era.

SU30MMKI for long range operations tilting towards Air superiority
MMRCA for meduim range but focused on strike
LCA for short range GEARED to point defense and CAS

The 4th is the fifth generation element ie THE FGFA PAK FA

India is also deploying a vast multi layered AIR defense system fat more advanced and far more costly than anything else in the sub continent

starting with AKASH sam system coupled with india rajendra radar system indenguious origin already over 6 battlions deployed

meduim range is the joint indo israeli SAM system based on barak2 & sypder and this wheere the israeli green pine radars and aerostats radars come in.

finally the 3rd phase is again indengious and is INDIA ABM system which is being tested as we speak backed by indian satalite systems like instat series which have been around for over 15 years

The origin of indians air power build up will not change ITS the same tried trusted allies namely RUSSIA, FRANCE UK & ISRAEL.

The USA has got involved BUT not at the cutting edge end just yet.

Finally hasnain one last point ANY nation in this world that organise itself well enough to grow at 8% annually in this recssion and has £325 billion in forex CAN certainly plan and develope its AIR power doctrine effectively.

In constrast i look at Pakistan the nation, the people, the govt and i see caos and dysfunction from the ground up.

SO i ask myself " how can these people have a professional airforce when everthing else is fallling to peices"

Storm Force. You really live in UK? and you don't even know in second world war, Whole UK economy was crumbling, they were falling in to pieces, they fought against all the odds and faced the mighty Missiles and airforce of Hitler? Don't you know that?

And second thing, Don't bother to ask yourself, because of the Indian genes in you never gonna give you a straight answer. Ask neutral sources like American, Turkish ones. They will give you the answer How PAF maintain itself under all these pressures.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hasnain,

This game would have been played very good if paf was able to have added around ---60-70 more of the blk 52's in its fleet---plus another 50 plus MLU'd f 16's----. With a hundred 120---150 f 16's at hand and amraam 120's in stock---paf could have ventured into other projects from a position of strength---.

You young people need to understand something----you can get into life and project from a position of strength---or you can project yourself from a position of weakness----and all through my discussions that is what I have been saying----not as directly as now----paf projected itself extremely poor---150 Blk 52's would have brought pakistan and india closer to peace a little faster.

Major weapons systems are not there to fight the wars----but rather to bring peace to the region.

 

[SBD-3]

Hasnain,

This game would have been played very good if paf was able to have added around ---60-70 more of the blk 52's in its fleet---plus another 50 plus MLU'd f 16's----. With a hundred 120---150 f 16's at hand and amraam 120's in stock---paf could have ventured into other projects from a position of strength---.

You young people need to understand something----you can get into life and project from a position of strength---or you can project yourself from a position of weakness----and all through my discussions that is what I have been saying----not as directly as now----paf projected itself extremely poor---150 Blk 52's would have brought pakistan and india closer to peace a little faster.

Major weapons systems are not there to fight the wars----but rather to bring peace to the region.

Sir, if PAF would have to go for 150 block 52s, then I would rather like them to for Grippen NG, Such a large purchase without ToPT (which is usually the case with US) to reduce potential risks would not make sense. PAF considers Block 52 as bonus aircrafts, why? because they were least expecting it from US, let alone 150. US-PAK realations have been historically fragile. If there is a need, and PAF has JFT and FC-20 in hand, they can always add more platforms to their fleet, rather than more restricted Block 52. to me the reason for Block 52's CFT was that these aircrafts would not be refueled by PAF refuelers. Ideally, had Grippen been chosen with erieye, we could have JFTs talking directly to erieye and Grippens with Chinese data link. PAF's hurried actions to acquire all the pods and stuff is an evidence that PAF wants to sqeeze as much as it can while the sun shines. having 150+ block 52 would mean if there were another 90s, PAF would be more valnurable to then more modernized IAF than we had in 90s. So in short, it should be either JFT or FC-20, not the Block 52.

 

[Mani2020]

Hasnain,

This game would have been played very good if paf was able to have added around ---60-70 more of the blk 52's in its fleet---plus another 50 plus MLU'd f 16's----. With a hundred 120---150 f 16's at hand and amraam 120's in stock---paf could have ventured into other projects from a position of strength---.

You young people need to understand something----you can get into life and project from a position of strength---or you can project yourself from a position of weakness----and all through my discussions that is what I have been saying----not as directly as now----paf projected itself extremely poor---150 Blk 52's would have brought pakistan and india closer to peace a little faster.

Major weapons systems are not there to fight the wars----but rather to bring peace to the region.

So that they would have been embargoed again by your dear yankees and PAF would have once again left on the mercy of enemies and then again people like you would have been yelling "PAF was insane, they should atleast have some sense ,they would have gone for french as they know yankees will once again back-stab , why to test someone time and time again,the people involved should be hanged" and all that lame stuff

I wonder how a person with all his senses can still prefer more yankee stuff specially after the recent chaos and tilt in the PAK-US relations specially after the statements like "US can use bombers on Pakistani soil" by some really high profile people

I am surprised by the fact that how many people just don't have in their nature to agree with someone and how they keep on twisting their own facts just to play safe as a critique

 

[rockstarIN]

And what are you trying to prove? Did I not say the full package Thunder will be above $18M+ the investment will increase as new Blocks comes out. $15M is the basic FC-1 with weapons and other customization the price will increase.

Do me a favor go back read JF-17 Threads.

Dear we are talking about JFT only here.

 

[rockstarIN]

, IAF, to my understanding, still lacks a strategic understanding what it wants from its fleet, they want every operational operational aircraft in this world, operating large number of specialized role aircrafts is a testiment to the fact that they will have every block with a different colour in their jigsaw

If you would say this for 1985-1999 period, I would agree, but now IAF is more focused and know what they want, do not get confused by this MMRCA drama, I'm sure PAF won't.

They are planning well in advance for the future,not expect old junk flying coffins in the coming decades in IAF inventory.

 

[SBD-3]

If you would say this for 1985-1999 period, I would agree, but now IAF is more focused and know what they want, do not get confused by this MMRCA drama, I'm sure PAF won't.

They are planning well in advance for the future,not expect old junk flying coffins in the coming decades in IAF inventory.

What i meant that even though IAF sights future to be the building block of its procurment startegy, it is not willing to let go the past. What i mean is that when it considers MKI to be a multirole platform, it is not willing to let go the now older Mig-29s,Mir-2000s, Jaguars. This leaves the IAF with 7 to 8 combat platforms, thats too scrambbled a fleet to operate and logically maintain.

 

[Mani2020]

If you would say this for 1985-1999 period, I would agree, but now IAF is more focused and know what they want, do not get confused by this MMRCA drama, I'm sure PAF won't.

They are planning well in advance for the future,not expect old junk flying coffins in the coming decades in IAF inventory.

What i understand of him is that he meant to say IAF is trying to gulp everything that come in their way without realizing what their true needs are ,

That may be because they now have big budget than ever before that may have hypnotized them verging them to grab whatever they can . I don't want to sound offensive neither i am , just to clarify to IAF lovers that may take my post as an offence without being rational to it .

Look at the types of aircraft IAF is operating . You can go with the names m2k,mig-29,mki, mig21, LCA, jaguars, mig-27. Now these are 7 types many may argue that they are going to retire soon but the question is they are still in service as of yet and what will happen tomorrow is still a far fetched thing specially the way your guys are going with MRCA . Even the USAF with its all might is not operating that many fighter types (not including the b-2s, sr-71s etc, just about conventional fighters).

The question is not about the modernization , they can modernize even by keeping the types less Look at the Saudi, Turkish, Israeli air-forces they have less fighter types but still effective and modern airforces even when Saudia has more defence budget than india. The thing is IAF is not willing to retire the old aircrafts as of yet just to maintain that status quo of having one of the largest number of fighter aircrafts. They would have easily satisfied with quality . Why not to induct systematically by replacing 2-3 old types with 1 new type rather then keep on increasing the types. The modernization can also be done with less types while more numbers while protecting the squadron strength as well ,

To maintain 7 different types of aircrafts may be easy in peace time but wouldn't it be a nightmare during war time

 

[ziaulislam]

What i understand of him is that he meant to say IAF is trying to gulp everything that come in their way without realizing what their true needs are ,

That may be because they now have big budget than ever before that may have hypnotized them verging them to grab whatever they can . I don't want to sound offensive neither i am , just to clarify to IAF lovers that may take my post as an offence without being rational to it .

Look at the types of aircraft IAF is operating . You can go with the names m2k,mig-29,mki, mig21, LCA, jaguars, mig-27. Now these are 7 types many may argue that they are going to retire soon but the question is they are still in service as of yet and what will happen tomorrow is still a far fetched thing specially the way your guys are going with MRCA . Even the USAF with its all might is not operating that many fighter types (not including the b-2s, sr-71s etc, just about conventional fighters).

The question is not about the modernization , they can modernize even by keeping the types less Look at the Saudi, Turkish, Israeli air-forces they have less fighter types but still effective and modern airforces even when Saudia has more defence budget than india. The thing is IAF is not willing to retire the old aircrafts as of yet just to maintain that status quo of having one of the largest number of fighter aircrafts. They would have easily satisfied with quality . Why not to induct systematically by replacing 2-3 old types with 1 new type rather then keep on increasing the types. The modernization can also be done with less types while more numbers while protecting the squadron strength as well ,

To maintain 7 different types of aircrafts may be easy in peace time but wouldn't it be a nightmare during war time

problem with keeping so many aircrafts is the maintence charges and costs..IAF is wasting a huge sum on these...
to be honest IAF could have acheived their requirements with su 30 and lca in 300,300 numbers without really needing any other aircraft.. and then later adding 250 stealth aircrafts..but somehow they rejected LCA and went for MRCA
thats what all airforces are doing keeping 1 heavy and 1 light catergery..
they could have satisfied theri western aircraft quota by using western equipment on LCA and updating their mirage 2000