JF-17 Block 3 vs. J-10C:

[Beast]

I understand but my question is why didn't Pakistan choose J-10B but went for JF-17 instead but now buying J-10C. That is where I am confused.

Rafale is not inducted by IAF that time, there is no such urgent need. Plus the engine offered will be Russian AL-31F. The avionics offered by J-10b may not be the best because J-20 havent enter service. China will still reserve about offering their best on J-10b.

J-10C likely will have same radar as PLAAF used and engine is higher thrust WS-10B. There is no need for another rd of negotiate for re-export of engine agreement with Russian.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

Rafale is not inducted by IAF that time, there is no such urgent need. Plus the engine offered will be Russian AL-31F. The avionics offered by J-10b may not be the best because J-20 havent enter service. China will still reserve about offering their best on J-10b.

J-10C likely will have same radar as PLAAF used and engine is higher thrust WS-10B. There is no need for another rd of negotiate for re-export of engine agreement with Russian.

I think Pakistan erred in picking JF-17.

They could have procured more capable 150 J-10 for the price of 200 JF-17

 

[MH.Yang]

disagree with the part in bold, blk52s aren't even close to combat capabilities of the J10Cs, blk52s lack IRST, AESA radar, while the J10Cs have then and on top of that they are also armed with the 155km range PL15s and HOBS PL10s, it outclasses the blk52s that carry the AIM120Cs with a max range of 110km and don't carry any HOBS missiles. Plus the J10Cs carry fast more offensive sensors than the blk52s do.

PAF's F16s are destined for a purely defensive role supplemented by F7PGs, the offensive punches will be delivered by the JF17, J10C & Mirage trio.

Why are all countries studying single middle push and double middle push instead of single big push except China's J-10?
Because the F16 has brought the performance of single big push fighter to the extreme.

The aerodynamic design of F16 is the most balanced aerodynamic design so far. It highlights the mobility in subsonic and transonic segments, taking into account the low altitude mobility and supersonic performance.
The maximum flight speed of F16 is 2M, and the horizontal growth rate before 1.5M is also good.
F16 has high lift coefficient, low wing load and high thrust weight ratio, which makes F16 very stable.
the subsystem of F16 is reliable, including engine, radar and cockpit (perfect bubble cockpit, giving the driver excellent cockpit vision).
F16 is also cheap, strong and durable. The service life of F16 is 6000 hours, and the service life of some F16 is more than 10000 hours
F16 also experienced a lot of actual combat. For example, from 1985 to 1989, Pakistan's F16 shot down 10 Soviet fighters in the border area, including 4 Su22, 2 an26, 1 an24, 1 Su2 and 2 MIG23.

F16b50 / 52 is a very important upgrade. It is equipped with 130kN high thrust engine (f110-ge-129 or f-100-pw-229), which enables F16 to increase the empty weight to 9 tons when ensuring the thrust weight ratio.
Conformal oil tank is added at the back of F16b50 / 52, which increases the internal oil volume by 1.5 times.
F16b50 / 52 can use harpoon anti-ship missile.
Yes, the F16b50 / 52 radar has not been replaced, not electric scanning. F16b50/52's radar and missile range is not as good as J10C, but its low altitude mobility is better than J10C, and F16b50/52 is more multifunctional, and it also has the conformal oil tank.
Comprehensive technical level, J10c and F16b50 / 52 are at the same level.

 

[zhxy]

I think Pakistan erred in picking JF-17.

They could have procured more capable 150 J-10 for the price of 200 JF-17

Depending on the situation and the purpose of use. For many countries, 200 JF-17 will be better than 150 J-10

“Quantity has a Quality of its own”

 

[jupiter2007]

I think Pakistan erred in picking JF-17.

They could have procured more capable 150 J-10 for the price of 200 JF-17

I am not sure why you are asking dumb questions. Please do some research and come back if you don’t understand.

 

[MH.Yang]

I think Pakistan erred in picking JF-17.

They could have procured more capable 150 J-10 for the price of 200 JF-17

JF-17 is a qualified second-line fighter, it has the ability to shoot down MIG21 and SU30, and it also can maintain a certain number of fighter pilots.
Pakistan usually only needs to maintain about 10 squadrons of first-line fighters. Once a large-scale war breaks out, Pakistan has enough qualified pilots to accept hundreds of J10c from China at any time.

BTW: China also has some squadrons using J8 fighters, with more than 15 squadrons.


J8 fighters

 

[jupiter2007]

J-10C is a medium weight fighter. Apparently, people don’t understand the difference between KG and LB. Even Sumira Khan missed it in her Vlog and she was corrected.


J-10C (Medium weight)

• Empty weight: 21,495 lb (9,750 kg)
• Gross weight: 30,865 lb (14,000 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 42,499 lb (19,277 kg)
• Fuel capacity: 4950 L (3860 Kg)

F-16 (Medium weight)

• Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,573 kg)
• Gross weight: 26,500 lb (12,020 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,187 kg)
• Fuel capacity: 7,000 pounds (3,200 kg)

JF-17 (Light weight)

• Empty weight: 14,520 lb (6,586 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 27,302 lb (12,384 kg)
• Fuel capacity: 5,137 lb (2,330 kg)

 

[MastanKhan]

I understand but my question is why didn't Pakistan choose J-10B but went for JF-17 instead but now buying J-10C. That is where I am confused.

Hi,

The JF17 Blk 1 cost pakistan 15 mil a piece---the BLK2 cost about 17.5 mil a piece.

The BLK 3's cost is about 24 mil a piece.

The reason for getting the J10C----.

The BLK 3 JF17 is not fully weapons and electronics equipment integrated aircraft yet.

The J10 C however is fully integrated & functional aircraft with all its weapons and electronics---.

Pakistan is facing a threat now---and in order to meet the threat head on---J10 are procured.

If Paf had enough time at hand---the J10 would not have been procured.

 

[maverick1977]

In this world, there are only two kinds of high thrust single engine fighters, F16 and J10.
JAS39 and JF17 are medium thrust single engine fighters. Therefore, they should not be compared with F16 and J10. It's not fair.

There are many block of F16, and there is a big gap in combat effectiveness. The combat effectiveness of J10C is similar to that of F16block50 / 52.

nope it is f16 block 70

 

[jupiter2007]

Hi,

The JF17 Blk 1 cost pakistan 15 mil a piece---the BLK2 cost about 17.5 mil a piece.

The BLK 3's cost is about 24 mil a piece.

The reason for getting the J10C----.

The BLK 3 JF17 is not fully weapons and electronics equipment integrated aircraft yet.

The J10 C however is fully integrated & functional aircraft with all its weapons and electronics---.

Pakistan is facing a threat now---and in order to meet the threat head on---J10 are procured.

If Paf had enough time at hand---the J10 would not have been procured.

Could you explain what you mean by “If Paf had enough time at hand---the J10 would not have been procured.”?

Let me know if this is a correct timeline….

• Pakistan attempted to purchase 8 F-16 block52 in February 2016.
• India signed a contract to purchase 36 Rafale in September 2016.
• Since 2016 Pakistan attempted to Purchase new and used F-16s but all attempts failed due shifting in USA foreign policies.
• After Uncle Sam refused to allow purchase of F-16 on FMF and CSF, Pakistan signed a contract to purchase 36 J-10C.

 

[jupiter2007]

Depending on the situation and the purpose of use. For many countries, 200 JF-17 will be better than 150 J-10

It’s not about quantity.
It’s about requirements, roles, maintenance cost, operational cost and reliability of the platform

 

[Chak Bamu]

I think Pakistan erred in picking JF-17.

They could have procured more capable 150 J-10 for the price of 200 JF-17

Nope.

JF-17 took Pakistan's aerospace industry at another level. JF-17 is a numbers fighter & it was needed when it came. PAF did not have time to wait for J-10C. PAF would still be procuring advanced variants of F-16 if these were available. J-10C is the right decision at the right time. It has no bearing on JF-17, which has its own role to fill.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

How different are Pakistan's requirements versus China's? Both are operating against India in similar conditions.

First of all, China's main threat comes in Southern China sea (US Navy) not Himalayas (IAF) where as Pakistan threat is soley IAF from north, south,west. China needs more powerful engine as their air combat radius is far higher than Pakistan and also a plane which can carry more weapon load. For us, light weight category fighter planes, as a fast interceptor, perfectly fits the picture since India-Pakistan land mass is completely joined together. Also scope of the JF17 project was to replace Mirages, F7s/PGs NOT F16s. J10s are now incoporated only when we see we ain't getting more F16s. If supply of latest F16s kept rolling in then perhaps we would had not gone for J10s.

All in all, we are very happy with JF17 program, and with block 3s, we are getting capabilities almost equivalent to F16block 52s/J10s, especially PL15 firing capability, coupled with AESA radar which depicts that our both first (MLUed F16s + J10Cs) and the second tier fighter planes (thunders + Mirages) are almost at par in many ways.

 

[serenity]

I understand but my question is why didn't Pakistan choose J-10B but went for JF-17 instead but now buying J-10C. That is where I am confused.

Because J-10B wasn't even around when JF-17 was already serving in PAF. Your question doesn't make sense. It is the same as asking why RAF bought EF Typhoon but now buying F-35. Does that mean EF Typhoon is something something (whatever you might want to suggest or imply).

J-10B wasn't available to PAF even after it entered Chinese service. Despite what you might find people saying here. J-10 was not easily exportable until only recently when WS-10B is used on J-10C since a few years ago when it became even exportable without having the Russian connection and leverage behind AL-31.

So basically PAF now is supposedly buying J-10C because 1. it is now available (since around 2019) for them to buy without negotiating yes or no for AL-31 export to Pakistan and 2. because J-10C came out years after JF-17 block 1 so before J-10C's existence, PAF can't exactly buy it, in fact it couldn't even buy J-10B as J-10B was not offered for export at all back then despite rumors and what is often claimed on this forum full of false information along with some accurate information.

 

[CriticalThought]

Without ever seeing a J-10 flying in public with PAF colors, this entire discussion is useless. I strongly advise people to wait for more information to come forth. Around 74 or so days left before 23rd March. Now just imagine, how hilarious would it be if the parade gets cancelled because of corona virus or security situation?