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JF-17: a major achievement

To my understanding from your source, Hal only producing parts and

futher overhaul, does it mean manufacture an engine ? :smitten:
:pakistan::china:

Stop doing selective reading.......look at the top of the page it says:

Products in Current Manufacturing Range


Highlighted for you ...in your favorite color.:pop:
 
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Tell them India has achieved it in 1961.

HAL HF-24 Marut

I agree ... India is far ahead of Pakistan in Aircraft hardware manufacturing, but it does not mean that we are not able to do the same. The main bottle neck is financing, which not only hinders Pakistan but also India, China, Europe and even USA (F22 is an example). With our economy in ruin, we are not able to measure up to our full potential, but we are trying our best.

Pakistan has been using imported stuff for a long long time ... now its time to used domestically produced fighters, and that's a milestone achievement for us, whether you like it or not.

Regards,
Sapper
 
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firstly kindly read the article at the top and you will get the answers. if not then....

currently pakistans share in the manufacturing is around 20% and mainly on the airframe -

in the next 2-3 years it will be upped to 60% to also include all the avionics (Grifo-7 for the F-7PG is 100% locally built so there is enough experience)

eventually pakistan's share will reach 80% - only the powerplant will continue to be imported either from china or via russia (thru china).

most of the weapons load except for a2a missiles will also be manufactured locally at the Air Weapons Complex.

have a nice day!

Every pakistani is talking in generic terms that 20% is manufactured in pakistan and it will rise to 60 % and son on, but that's just parts manufacturing with technology transfer from china.

Tell me what technologies developed by pakistan is used on JF17.
 
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Every pakistani is talking in generic terms that 20% is manufactured in pakistan and it will rise to 60 % and son on, but that's just parts manufacturing with technology transfer from china.

Tell me what technologies developed by pakistan is used on JF17.

i still haven’t found even one part that is made in Pakistan in the whole jet, maybe our Pakistani brothers have links that I dont have, considering the fact that i work in the aviation industry lol
:cheers:
 
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I agree ... India is far ahead of Pakistan in Aircraft hardware manufacturing, but it does not mean that we are not able to do the same. The main bottle neck is financing, which not only hinders Pakistan but also India, China, Europe and even USA (F22 is an example). With our economy in ruin, we are not able to measure up to our full potential, but we are trying our best.

Pakistan has been using imported stuff for a long long time ... now its time to used domestically produced fighters, and that's a milestone achievement for us, whether you like it or not.

Regards,
Sapper

Finally a smart comment, Sapper you never fail to impress me lol Sometimes your comments are truly enlightening lol The Jf-17 is a start for the Pakistani aviation industry and not the pinnacle, still a long way to go but im sure you guys are on the right track :cheers:
 
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Finally a smart comment, Sapper you never fail to impress me lol Sometimes your comments are truly enlightening lol The Jf-17 is a start for the Pakistani aviation industry and not the pinnacle, still a long way to go but im sure you guys are on the right track :cheers:

No country makes fighter jets indigenously 100%. F-22 Raptors parts are outsourced to countries like Turkey and Canada. Eurofighter is made by a consortium of european countries. Even modern light weight fighter jets like the Grippin imports engines from the US.

So why should Pak make parts that would cost hell a lot more than importing them from China?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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i still haven’t found even one part that is made in Pakistan in the whole jet, maybe our Pakistani brothers have links that I dont have, considering the fact that i work in the aviation industry lol
:cheers:


I am laughing on your ignorance as you claim to work for the aviation industry. You don’t have to make parts yourself. You either provide specifications and let someone else design and make parts for you or you can use off shelf parts if available and meet your needs. In this era, it will be very stupid to reinvent the wheel (have you ever heard this saying?) and make everything from scratch. Do you think Boeing is making all the parts herself? No. The parts for 787 are being manufactured all over the world according to Boeing’s specification and being shipped to Seattle for assembly. Same is true for IBM, GM and many other companies. They all assemble parts made by other companies and then sell their products under their own label. No wonder it’s taking you folks to design and build LCA for the last 25 years.

You have your way of doing things in India and we have our way of doing things in Pakistan. We at Pakistan work smartly. We provided the specifications for JF-17 to china and luckily they had the design that with some modifications met our needs and within a short period of time we were building the planes while you folks were still struggling with your LCA. Good Luck!
 
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i still haven’t found even one part that is made in Pakistan in the whole jet, maybe our Pakistani brothers have links that I dont have, considering the fact that i work in the aviation industry lol
:cheers:

That's strange, if that is so, you should have known the answers you or other Indian members are seeking here.

As said in my previous post, did u knew the HUD technology and programming for a HUD were given to China by PAF while F-7P was being designed as per PAF requirements. Don't think so.

Just to make you guys brood over, DSI came on the JF-17 first a joint fighter a/c and now its being used for J-10B, ever wonder why it wasn't used by China on its aircrafts before or made an aircraft with DSI?? how did the first aircraft JF-17 came with it??

So try to get the answer yourself.
 
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btw
how many LCA or LACs are there in india? 20?
I mean in the air force not in the hot air.
 
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No country makes fighter jets indigenously 100%. F-22 Raptors parts are outsourced to countries like Turkey and Canada. Eurofighter is made by a consortium of european countries. Even modern light weight fighter jets like the Grippin imports engines from the US.

So why should Pak make parts that would cost hell a lot more than importing them from China?


DESIKUTTA - STOP TROLLING.

you're name is very befitting :lol:

Ok let me enlighten you a bit, i wont go into specifics because kids like you will never learn
the process of designing and manufacturing a jet -

1) the regulatory body or governing authority express interest or concern on acquiring or manufacturing a jet to meet its requirements.
2) the requirements are then translated into a dossier that is sent to the major engineering body involved.
3)the engineering body is then told to design the jet and its specifications keeping in mind cost and manufacturing constraints, which is very important without which the project is a no go
4) after all the specs are drawn up the jet is split into different jobs ranging from the pneumatics parts to the electrical parts to every other part involved in making the jet
5)Purchasing is handed over the various bill of materials and THEN ITS THEIR DECISION where the parts are bought from, only keeping in mind the quality and cost.
6) then after everything is bought comes production and w.e.

Pakistan was only involved mainly in step 1,2 and 6 till now. All the major design steps were done in China and till now I have not heard of any major Pakistani involvement in there. Parts are always bought from everywhere in the world, it is merely a purchasing decision. On the other hand the LCA is 100% designed by HAL and the purchasing is done from all over the world to increase the quality. I hope someone now understood what I meant by parts. The parts still have to be approved by engineering and has to fit the BOM perfectly. That is why detailed drawings and simulations are done before a BOM is produced. So I recommend you do not test my knowledge or patience, AND BETTER WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE, I am not personally saying anything to u so please don’t try that on me. If you want even more specific details about designing an aircraft just ask.
:cheers:
 
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This will be an interesting reading.

On March 23 2007, two JF-17 “Thunder” fighters took to the skies for the first time in Pakistan as a part of the Pakistan Day celebrations. Touted to be Pakistan's first home made fighter, the JF-17 is expected to be the Pakistan Air Force's frontline fighter well into the future. With this article, I’ve made an attempt to examine the JF-17 in the Indo-Pak context. But first, some background information on the program.

The program began in 1986 as the Super-7, when China signed a $550 million deal with Grumman to modernise its fleet of J-7 (MiG-21s manufactured in China under license) fighters. The United States ceased technical assistance following the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989, and the project almost ground to a halt. However, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) managed to keep the program alive with its own resources, as the FC-1. The project got a new lease of life in 1999, when Pakistan and China signed an agreement to “jointly” develop and produce the FC-1 with both countries contributing 50% of the funds. Russia’s Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group provided technical assistance. The FC-1 (Designated JF-17 “Thunder” by Pakistan) was supposed to be a lightweight all-weather multi-role fighter, which would replace Pakistan’s fleet of Mirage-III, F-7, and A-5 aircraft, whose safety record is going downhill by the day. The Pakistani version would sport a Western avionics suite, which included the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 radar, a variant of which is already in service with the Pakistan Air Force on its F-7 fighters. It would be powered by one Russian Klimov RD-93 turbofan. The “Aviation Week & Space Technology” magazine reported in November 2006 that “Pakistani officials expect the first contract for 16 aircraft (split equally with China) to be awarded next year, with deliveries as early as 2007. A full-rate production contract would follow around 2009. Initially, Pakistan will provide 58% of the parts, but that is supposed to increase gradually to 100%.” The overall Pakistani requirement is expected to be around 150 fighters.

Although the Pakistanis tried to demonstrate with the Pakistan Day flypast that everything was tickety-boo, this is far from the truth. The Western avionics are nowhere to be seen, and supplier decisions do not appear to have been made. Radar integration, a challenging job under the best of circumstances, seems to have run into problems. The task is complicated in no small part by the lack of space available in the JF-17’s radome. It is now widely claimed that the first batch of Pakistani JF-17s will be equipped with Chinese avionics and radar. The weapons package is yet to be finalised. While China is expected to push its PL-9 dogfight missile and the yet untested SD-10 beyond visual range air to air missile, the South Africans have reportedly offered their A-Darter and T-Darter missiles. In January 2007, the head of the Russian Defence Ministry's International Cooperation Department, Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich, announced that Russia had “denied China the right to supply its JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines to third countries, asking it to sign an end-user certificate for the engines”. In Indian circles, this was taken to be a total Russian denial. Sinodefence.com, a Chinese military website reports that while five RD-93s have been purchased to power the prototypes, an agreement on the further purchase and re-export of the engine is still pending. To make things worse, the Chinese have yet to make any firm commitments, and appear to have lost interest in inducting the FC-1, preferring the more capable J-10 instead.

Given development time-frame and mission profile, comparisons between the JF-17 and India’s “Tejas” light combat aircraft are inevitable. But similarities, if any, are merely superficial. The Tejas, meant to replace India’s massive fleet of MiG-21s, is a wholly different project as far as technology is concerned. Its airframe, made of advanced carbon fibre composites, is light years ahead of the Thunder’s all-metal airframe. The ADA, HAL, and NAL invested considerable time, effort, and resources in its development, and came up with what is arguably one of the finest airframes in the world. The same goes for the Tejas’ aerodynamics which, because of the compound delta-wing, extensive wing-body blending, and low wing loading are superior to those of the Thunder, which has a more conventional layout along the lines of the F-16 and a rejected Soviet light fighter design. As far as flight dynamics and control go, the Tejas, with its relaxed static stability and quadruplex, full authority fly-by-wire digital flight control system, is far more advanced than the Thunder, which still features conventional controls (fly-by-wire exists only for pitch control). The Tejas then, is a state of the art combat aircraft which will be India’s first step towards self-reliance. Program wise, it is more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, considering not just the technology involved, but also the scope of the project. In the light of this argument, its longer timeline is hardly surprising. But the Thunder, despite Pakistan’s best efforts to package it as “indigenous”, is anything but. Pakistan’s contribution to the design and development of the project is close to nothing. Even today, it does not sport any Pakistani systems. It is at best a cheap and low-tech Chinese aircraft that Pakistan can mass produce. As Siva, a contributor on Bharat Rakshak points out, the JF-17 is more comparable to the HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer – since both have an all-metal airframe, conventional controls, and an externally sourced engine. And the Sitara was developed even faster than the Thunder.

This is not to say that the JF-17 is a bad aircraft. It will serve a very important purpose by giving Pakistan valuable experience in fighter aircraft manufacturing. It will help Pakistan rid itself of dependence on American weapons. It will give the Pakistan Air Force a shot in the arm by beefing up numbers and providing it with decent beyond visual range combat capability. Dismissing it as “worthless” would be nothing short of stupid. My friend and aviation enthusiast Kartik sums it up beautifully: “If the Pakistanis integrate even a medium performance radar and use the SD-10 with it, it is a big threat to the Indian Air Force – just look at the MiG-21 Bison to see what an underestimated fighter can turn out to be. The Sukhoi Su-30K was also found to be a poor aircraft when the IAF first evaluated it, and then after all sweat and toil put into getting its avionics in place and the thrust vector controls, the Su-30MKI is a completely different beast! I somehow fear that the JF-17 shouldn’t prove to be a fighter that makes the Fulcrums, Mirages, Bisons almost on-par or just a little superior. Which is why the IAF needs a true fourth generation fighter to stay ahead – both airframe wise as well as avionics wise."


Soure : Livefist
 
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One Mr. Abhiman has given some interesting information.

Hello Mihir Shah. The article which you have written is very informative. To your article, I may add a few smaller "nuggets" :

1] Nomenclature : The JF in JF-17 stands for Joint-Fighter, because it was jointly developed by China and Pak. The '17' in its name is an increment over the 16 of F-16, to signify that the JF-17 shall be a modern successor to the F-16 in the PAF. It is sometimes referred to as just F-17 also.

2] The JF-17 had suffered drawbacks in its design in 2005, after which DSI and LERX were added. The CAC claimed that the DSI (Divertless Section Intake) is a feature that is present only in the JSF. This feature has been claimed to have reduced weight by 200-300 kgs, besides increasing stealth (as the engine blades are claimed to have been substantially shielded from direct view).

This was incorporated in Pt-04 (Prototype-04). Pt-06 is apparently the production version.

3] As per the statement of PAF CAS, the total requirement of JF-17s in PAF is upto 250 instead of the initial 150.

4] As per a Chinese media report, there are 2 Chinese and 1 European company in contention for the radar system. The first batch of 8 JF-17 fighters (all to be delivered in 2007) shall be equipped with the Chinese KJL-10 radar.

As per the news report, I quote, "“Pakistan is very clever. They will allow two Chinese companies to compete with each other first, and then get the Chinese compete with Western companies. If Pakistan requests, Galileo Avionica will provide Pakistan with the radar system for testing on JF17,” a source from Galileo Avionica said.

5] As per the same news report, the weapons that are most likely to be integrated are Chinese only, namely LT-2 Laser Guided Bombs, LS-6 GPS guided bombs and SD10 active radar guided AAMs.

6] As rightly mentioned by you that the PLAAF itself may be more committed to the J-10 rather than FC-1 (for which it has not placed firm orders), however it is widely speculated that the JF-17 may have a tremendous export market in third-world nations which may not be able to afford expensive fighters like F-16 and MiG-29. It also has modern 4th generation avionics and a "decent" weapon suite.

7] Although as mentioned by you that the JF-17 is rumoured to have been developed from a cancelled fighter project of the USSR (termed Project-33), it is not true. The protrusion which runs along the uppermost part of the fuselage (can be termed as the spine) is a "vestige" that has been inherited from the MiG-21. No other Russian fighter too has that distinct feature.

Thank you.

References :
First post by saf2000 in the following page from a discussion board :
Pics Of PAF Receiving JF-17 - Page 2 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
 
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This will be an interesting reading.

On March 23 2007, two JF-17 “Thunder” fighters took to the skies for the first time in Pakistan as a part of the Pakistan Day celebrations. Touted to be Pakistan's first home made fighter, the JF-17 is expected to be the Pakistan Air Force's frontline fighter well into the future. With this article, I’ve made an attempt to examine the JF-17 in the Indo-Pak context. But first, some background information on the program.

The program began in 1986 as the Super-7, when China signed a $550 million deal with Grumman to modernise its fleet of J-7 (MiG-21s manufactured in China under license) fighters. The United States ceased technical assistance following the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989, and the project almost ground to a halt. However, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) managed to keep the program alive with its own resources, as the FC-1. The project got a new lease of life in 1999, when Pakistan and China signed an agreement to “jointly” develop and produce the FC-1 with both countries contributing 50% of the funds. Russia’s Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group provided technical assistance. The FC-1 (Designated JF-17 “Thunder” by Pakistan) was supposed to be a lightweight all-weather multi-role fighter, which would replace Pakistan’s fleet of Mirage-III, F-7, and A-5 aircraft, whose safety record is going downhill by the day. The Pakistani version would sport a Western avionics suite, which included the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 radar, a variant of which is already in service with the Pakistan Air Force on its F-7 fighters. It would be powered by one Russian Klimov RD-93 turbofan. The “Aviation Week & Space Technology” magazine reported in November 2006 that “Pakistani officials expect the first contract for 16 aircraft (split equally with China) to be awarded next year, with deliveries as early as 2007. A full-rate production contract would follow around 2009. Initially, Pakistan will provide 58% of the parts, but that is supposed to increase gradually to 100%.” The overall Pakistani requirement is expected to be around 150 fighters.

Although the Pakistanis tried to demonstrate with the Pakistan Day flypast that everything was tickety-boo, this is far from the truth. The Western avionics are nowhere to be seen, and supplier decisions do not appear to have been made. Radar integration, a challenging job under the best of circumstances, seems to have run into problems. The task is complicated in no small part by the lack of space available in the JF-17’s radome. It is now widely claimed that the first batch of Pakistani JF-17s will be equipped with Chinese avionics and radar. The weapons package is yet to be finalised. While China is expected to push its PL-9 dogfight missile and the yet untested SD-10 beyond visual range air to air missile, the South Africans have reportedly offered their A-Darter and T-Darter missiles. In January 2007, the head of the Russian Defence Ministry's International Cooperation Department, Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich, announced that Russia had “denied China the right to supply its JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines to third countries, asking it to sign an end-user certificate for the engines”. In Indian circles, this was taken to be a total Russian denial. Sinodefence.com, a Chinese military website reports that while five RD-93s have been purchased to power the prototypes, an agreement on the further purchase and re-export of the engine is still pending. To make things worse, the Chinese have yet to make any firm commitments, and appear to have lost interest in inducting the FC-1, preferring the more capable J-10 instead.

Given development time-frame and mission profile, comparisons between the JF-17 and India’s “Tejas” light combat aircraft are inevitable. But similarities, if any, are merely superficial. The Tejas, meant to replace India’s massive fleet of MiG-21s, is a wholly different project as far as technology is concerned. Its airframe, made of advanced carbon fibre composites, is light years ahead of the Thunder’s all-metal airframe. The ADA, HAL, and NAL invested considerable time, effort, and resources in its development, and came up with what is arguably one of the finest airframes in the world. The same goes for the Tejas’ aerodynamics which, because of the compound delta-wing, extensive wing-body blending, and low wing loading are superior to those of the Thunder, which has a more conventional layout along the lines of the F-16 and a rejected Soviet light fighter design. As far as flight dynamics and control go, the Tejas, with its relaxed static stability and quadruplex, full authority fly-by-wire digital flight control system, is far more advanced than the Thunder, which still features conventional controls (fly-by-wire exists only for pitch control). The Tejas then, is a state of the art combat aircraft which will be India’s first step towards self-reliance. Program wise, it is more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, considering not just the technology involved, but also the scope of the project. In the light of this argument, its longer timeline is hardly surprising. But the Thunder, despite Pakistan’s best efforts to package it as “indigenous”, is anything but. Pakistan’s contribution to the design and development of the project is close to nothing. Even today, it does not sport any Pakistani systems. It is at best a cheap and low-tech Chinese aircraft that Pakistan can mass produce. As Siva, a contributor on Bharat Rakshak points out, the JF-17 is more comparable to the HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer – since both have an all-metal airframe, conventional controls, and an externally sourced engine. And the Sitara was developed even faster than the Thunder.

This is not to say that the JF-17 is a bad aircraft. It will serve a very important purpose by giving Pakistan valuable experience in fighter aircraft manufacturing. It will help Pakistan rid itself of dependence on American weapons. It will give the Pakistan Air Force a shot in the arm by beefing up numbers and providing it with decent beyond visual range combat capability. Dismissing it as “worthless” would be nothing short of stupid. My friend and aviation enthusiast Kartik sums it up beautifully: “If the Pakistanis integrate even a medium performance radar and use the SD-10 with it, it is a big threat to the Indian Air Force – just look at the MiG-21 Bison to see what an underestimated fighter can turn out to be. The Sukhoi Su-30K was also found to be a poor aircraft when the IAF first evaluated it, and then after all sweat and toil put into getting its avionics in place and the thrust vector controls, the Su-30MKI is a completely different beast! I somehow fear that the JF-17 shouldn’t prove to be a fighter that makes the Fulcrums, Mirages, Bisons almost on-par or just a little superior. Which is why the IAF needs a true fourth generation fighter to stay ahead – both airframe wise as well as avionics wise."


Soure : Livefist

A typical analysis provided on an Indian blog most probably by the blogger himself, with some very outdated and incorrect information.

Height of ignorance is, that the blogger has all praises for the still prototype or LSP Tejas while making JF-17 a crap which soon will take a squadron form, with many countries showing interest in JF-17, while the interest by the original operator IAF in Tejas is lackluster at best.

Typical Indian analysis, what else can we expect from them.
 
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