Japan’s Anti-China Coalition Is Dangerous

[VietHome]

Crazy you said that but when your countryman say something similar (post 131) you just ignore it.

I didn't ignore it, just that your countryman sweetgrape here as been spamming this letter by Pham Van Dong everywhere without reading all the explanations. So I figure he would need a longer and a little more convincing statement.

 

[Jlaw]

I didn't ignore it, just that your countryman sweetgrape here as been spamming this letter by Pham Van Dong everywhere without reading all the explanations. So I figure he would need a longer and a little more convincing statement.

At least he has the copy of the letter, better than spewing garbage with no backup, which unfortunately is what a lot of Vietnamese do in this forum. In reality it makes you people look bad.

 

[VietHome]

At least he has the copy of the letter, better than spewing garbage with no backup, which unfortunately is what a lot of Vietnamese do in this forum. In reality it makes you people look bad.

He is copying the letter, but his inference from the letter is garbage without back-ups from international law. I have shown you just that. Alright, write you intelligent rebuff here. I will wait for your response. Answer a simple question: what makes Pham Van Dong's letter a legally bidding treaty between two nations?

 

[Peter]

The American won't agree with you. Otherwise, why did they sent their fighters to bomb NV territory? So I'll let our American friends to answer this historical version What American view of this matter? South Vietnam was willing to join NV or they was annexed by NV?

Yes, NiceGuy ... don't lie like that man!

Yes, there was a political organization and army in South Vietnam and Cambodia that fought the United States and South Vietnamese governments during the Vietnam War called "Viet Cong" whom were trained and military supported from the North VN party.

Therefore, what NiceGuy said that "North and the South was united by general election. The North didnt invaded the South" is completely FALSE!!!

Taken "Tet Offensive" for instance, was one of the largest military campaigns of the Vietnam War, launched on January 30, 1968 by forces of the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army against the forces of South Vietnam, the United States, and their allies.

In the spring of 1975, four-star General Văn Tiến Dũng to launch the deadliest attack on Buôn Ma Thuột. This town sat at the intersection of the important routes of Central Highland and it was a weak point for the enemy forces. The sudden strike frightened the southern leaders and generals, worsened the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) morale, and shook the ARVN defence system.

General Lê Trọng Tấn to launch series of attacks against Đà Nẵng, where nearly 100,000 well-equipped troops of the best southern divisions were camped. In three days, Đà Nẵng was seized. Giáp appointed[citation needed] General Văn Tiến Dũng as 1st Commander and General Lê Trọng Tấn as 2nd Commander of the "Hồ Chí Minh Campaign", a massive conventional operation that utilized armor and heavy artillery. The goal of the operation was to take over Saigon from two directions, Central Highland and coastal no.1 highway. These attacks were done in coordination with General Lê Đức Anh and Snr. Lt. General Trần Văn Trà. After important areas such as Buôn Ma Thuột, Đà Nẵng and Huế were lost in March, panic swept through the ARVN and its high command. President Thiệu attempted to abandon the northern half of the nation while pulling his troops back to defensive positions in the south.

General Lê Trọng Tấn's force was first to enter Saigon and Tấn captured Dương Văn Minh alive. Minh was the president of South Vietnam until 30 April 1975 and was also the last president of South Vietnam.

Wrong, there was a civil war in South VN, and pro-North VN party ( National Liberation Front of South Vietnam) in the South won the war.

the North and the South was united by general election. The North didnt invaded the South.

U can see the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam use different flag with North VN.

So what, flag of Viet Cong or flag of North VN is not an issue but South VN was annexed by North Vietnam undeniable.

 

[silverblade]

Did China and North Vietnam govt signed in to Geneva Accords 1954 or not ?

They did as a team. The South/US team didn't.

Frankly I don't see any linkage between Geneva Accords 1954 and the territorial disputes at all. Anyway, Let's dissect the information.

The Final Declarations of the Geneva Conference July 21, 1954

4. The Conference takes note of the clauses in the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities in Viet-Nam prohibiting the introduction into Vietnam of foreign troops and military personnel as well as all kinds of arms and munitions. The Conference also takes note of the declarations made by the Governments of Cambodia and Laos of their resolution not to request foreign aid, whether in war material, in personnel or in instructors except for the purpose of the effective defence of their territory and, in the case of Laos, to the extent defined by the Agreements on the cessation of hostilities in Laos.

- The foreign troops were China for North, US for South/French. China signed the accord because of its assistance to
the North, not because China/North were sorting out territorial dispute friends.

5. The Conference takes note of the clauses in the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities in Viet-nam to the effect that no military base under the control of a foreign State may be established
in the regrouping zones of the two parties, the latter having the obligation to see that the zones allotted to them shall not constitute part of any military alliance and shall not be utilized for
the resumption of hostilities or in the service of an aggressive policy. The Conference also takes note of the declarations of the Governments of Cambodia and Laos to the effect that they will not
join in any agreement with other States if this agreement includes the obligation to participate in a military alliance not in conformity with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations or,
in the case of Laos, with the principles of the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities in Laos or, so long as their security is not threatened, the obligation to establish bases on Cambodian or
Laotian territory for the military forces of foreign powers.

6. The Conference recognizes that the essential purpose of the Agreement relating to Viet-nam is to settle military questions with a view to ending hostilities and that the military demarcation line
is provisional and should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary. The Conference expresses its conviction that the execution of the provisions set out in the
present Declaration and in the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities creates the necessary basis for the achievement in the near future of a political settlement in Viet-Nam.

- Obviously the demarcation line is solely for the North/South Vietnam forces to comply - sort of no crossing line, and the line did not constitute territorial boundary at all.

 

[VietHome]

So what, flag of Viet Cong or flag of North VN is not an issue but South VN was annexed by North Vietnam undeniable.

You are wrong on this one Peter because the two entities, while separated, have always been considered to be untied under a free election as stated in the Geneva Accords

Political and administrative measures in the two regrouping zones, on either side of the provisional military demarcation line:

(a) Pending the general elections which will bring about the unification of Viet-Nam, the conduct of civil administration in each regrouping zone shall be in the hands of the party whose forces are to be regrouped there in virtue of the present Agreement

As such, after signing the Agreement on Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam, signed in Paris and entered into force January 17, 1973. Peace Accords, the US and South Vietnam has agreed to follow that letter

The United States and all other countries respect the independence, sovereignty, unity, and territorial integrity of Viet-Nam as recognized by the 1954 Geneva Agreements on Viet-Nam.

As such, Vietnam is officially untied as long as a general election is held, which they did after the 1975 victory. There is no "annexation" since the country is considered to be temporary divided and all the requirements were met in 1975 to trigger that Clause from the Geneva Accords.

So to sum up, North Vietnam and South Vietnam were separated entities with their own territorial problem against foreign countries. In this case, South Vietnam fought the Chinese in 1974, but North Vietnam did not. However both can fight to gain each other's territory until the country-wide election is held.

 

[Jlaw]

He is copying the letter, but his inference from the letter is garbage without back-ups from international law. I have shown you just that. Alright, write you intelligent rebuff here. I will wait for your response. Answer a simple question: what makes Pham Van Dong's letter a legally bidding treaty between two nations?

As supposed to post 151, where he simply states "Zhou Enlai discussed secretly in back of Vietnam with France.."

 

[Peter]

You are wrong on this one Peter because the two entities, while separated, have always been considered to be untied under a free election as stated in the Geneva Accords

Who are you kidding VietHome?

Did you not read:

1. Taken "Tet Offensive" for instance, was one of the largest military campaigns of the Vietnam War, launched on January 30, 1968 by forces of the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army against the forces of South Vietnam, the United States, and their allies.

2. General Lê Trọng Tấn's force was first to enter Saigon and Tấn captured Dương Văn Minh alive. Minh was the president of South Vietnam until 30 April 1975 and was also the last president of South Vietnam.

If the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army were not captured South VN President Dương Văn Minh by force then how could VN had held a general election? Therefore, you can't say that both sides would willingly to have a general election without WAR so to force the other side (actually, the other side can't vote because they were imprisoned in concentrate camps)!

As such, after signing the Agreement on Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam, signed in Paris and entered into force January 17, 1973. Peace Accords, the US and South Vietnam has agreed to follow that letter

As such, Vietnam is officially untied as long as a general election is held, which they did after the 1975 victory. There is no "annexation" since the country is considered to be temporary divided and all the requirements were met in 1975 to trigger that Clause from the Geneva Accords.

So to sum up, North Vietnam and South Vietnam were separated entities with their own territorial problem against foreign countries. In this case, South Vietnam fought the Chinese in 1974, but North Vietnam did not. However both can fight to gain each other's territory until the country-wide election is held.

So, who is wrong here!?

 

[VietHome]

As supposed to post 151, where he simply states "Zhou Enlai discussed secretly in back of Vietnam with France.."

Why are you trying to skirt away from the point? My focus is in the issue of the Paracel island where sweetgrap has been spamming the "evidences" and I have to correct him. You have not answered my simple question, so I see no point in continue talking.

I'm not here to discuss other political gossips, or cover for all the statements Vietnamese made in this board. You are a capable person, discuss with them if you feel that they don't have proof. If you want to discuss with me, talk about the issue of the Paracel.

Who are you kidding VietHome?

Did you not read:

1. Taken "Tet Offensive" for instance, was one of the largest military campaigns of the Vietnam War, launched on January 30, 1968 by forces of the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army against the forces of South Vietnam, the United States, and their allies.

2. General Lê Trọng Tấn's force was first to enter Saigon and Tấn captured Dương Văn Minh alive. Minh was the president of South Vietnam until 30 April 1975 and was also the last president of South Vietnam.

If the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army were not captured South VN President Dương Văn Minh by force then how could VN had held a general election? Therefore, you can't say that both sides would willingly to have a general election without WAR so to force the other side (actually, the other side can't vote because they were imprisoned in concentrate camps)!

I am not sure what are you trying the say. The Geneva Accords made a point about general election that can legally reunified Vietnam, and that the two sides were not two separated countries but two separated parts administered by two different political entities, sort of like what the PRC is claiming the status to Taiwan as. So the reunification is no "annexation," which is what you claimed. It is a Vietnam civil war, just like American Civil war. One cannot say the Union annexed the Confederate because those two are not legally separated nations according to the US Constitution.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

ha ha, you are Hua. Chu Hao was Hua who owned first Majestic hotel in Saigon.

The different is that China and North Vietnam signed in to Geneva Accords 1954. Following to term and condition of Geneva Accords, In fact China recognized sovereignity of South Vietnam over Paracel and Spratly. China have to respect the international aggreement what China has been signed.

WTF is Hua? What has the ownership of a hotel to do with me?

Why did your VP write such a document if he was sure that it's Vietnamese territory?

 

[VietHome]

Why did your VP write such a document if he was sure that it's Vietnamese territory?

That letter was a political bluff to appease the Chinese during the height of the war. It has no legal bearing or any practical meaning and that's why it was written in such a way. Pham Van Dong made a diplomatic maneuver and now all the Chinese posters are clinging to it as some holy relic. It's really ironic.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

That letter was a political bluff to appease the Chinese during the height of the war. It has no legal bearing or any practical meaning and that's why it was written in such a way. Pham Van Dong made a diplomatic maneuver and now all the Chinese posters are clinging to it as some holy relic. It's really ironic.

OK, so your VP lied in an official document. Interesting.

 

[VietHome]

OK, so your VP lied in an official document. Interesting.

Sure if you'd like to call it that way. In the end, it's like this:

While running down the housing development.

China: all these houses in this lot are mine.
Pham Van Dong: I respect your ownership of houses in general and the backyard around those.
Chinese posters: Pham Van Dong transfer the ownership of house B within the lot to China.

The Pham Van Dong statement has
a) No specific name for the ownership transfer. Vietnam has always called House B, Hoang Sa while its international name is Paracel, so the Chinese name does not match any Vietnam or international document. Thus, the name China gave to house B means nothing to both Vietnam and the international community so what China understands does not match everyone else's, making that statement useless.
b) Pham Van Dong was not authorized to transfer anything. The Vietnam General Assembly has the final say and Pham Van Dong is just their representative. Most country decide the matter of land transfer through their Congress as it should be.
c) House B in this lot was not owned by Vietnam General Assembly at the time either! They are just neighbors to house B while South Vietnam legally owned it. You cannot transfer or sell what you don't own.

 

[xunzi]

How is it instigation when we did not shoot at you and that the territory is a legal transfer from South Vietnam to the Untied Vietnam? Show me the proof that you owe the Spratly. The war started by the one making the first shot. China did, Vietnam didn't. So your original claim that China has not made war in 30 years is false.

Learn history, my friend.

During the 14th UNESCOIntergovernmental Oceanographic Commission (IOC), it was agreed upon that China would establish five observation posts, including one at the Spratly Islands, for worldwide ocean survey.[6] In March 1987, the UNESCO IOC commissioned China to build the observation post at the Spratly Islands.[6] In April 1987, after numerous surveys and patrols, China chose the Fiery Cross Reef as the ideal location for the observation post because the unoccupied reef was remote from other claims and it was large enough for the observation post.[6] Between January and February, Vietnamese forces began establishing a presence at surrounding reefs to monitor the Chinese activity.[6] That led to a series of confrontations as the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) began defending its position.[6]

Either you can't express your logic in English or you have problem with logical mind in general, Sunzi!

Nope. I gave a very short and simple analogy and you're trying to be a smartass and interpret in ways nobody understands. LOL Next time, don't be a smartass and embarrass yourself.

 

[xunzi]

Here is the Accords for you: Geneva Accords

Article 4

The provisional military demarcation line between the two final regrouping zones is extended into the territorial waters by a line perpendicular to the general line of the coast.

All coastal islands north of this boundary shall be evacuated by the armed forces of the French union, and all islands south of it shall he evacuated by the forces of the People's Army of Viet-Nam.

At that point, both Hoang Sa (Paracel) and Truong Sa (Spratly) are perpendicular to South Vietnam's coast and France was administrating the islands so both of those islands belong to South Vietnam.

1) No direct mention of Paracel and Spratly.
2) The Article SPECIFICALLY postulated that France force and South VN force shall be removed from said islands.
3) At the time, France occupied the Southern half of Paracel, while PRC/ROC administered the northern half of Paracel. Both continues to fight and dispute until we retake everything in 1974.

The Woody Island is the biggest island in Paracel and we administered with military Garrison dating to 1945 when Japan surrendered and return to us., before Geneva Accord took place. So this is enough evidence to debunk the theory that you own Paracel. Let also remember the France is the real occupying owner of the Southern half. You own nothing.

Don't try to be cute. Stick to fact.