Japanese warship arrives Vietnam

[BoQ77]

You only need that tactic if you really want a stealth attack or you are using a short range missile.

The Su-30MK2 + KH-59 dont need that tactic. Su-30 can give guidance to the missile from the safe stand off distance of >150km. When the KH-59 gets closer to the ship, it turns on its opto-electro sensor for pinpoint accuracy.

The 052D will need to intercept the KH-59 before this happen. It can intercept the missile but it can never intercept the Su-30. It can only intercept a Orion size plane from 150km-200km range, not a fighter.

Bottom line is, 052D still can't deal with a fighter. It still needs other fighters for aerial coverage from 150km range.

Not offending, but if it was Brahmos-M (Mach 3.5), not KH-59 ... air launched from Su-30MK2 or Su-27 ( distance 290 km ), that means the vital moments come to 052D or any other warships.

That's why Vietnam ordered more Su-30MK2 and start to order Brahmos missiles.

 

[Aepsilons]

LCA from Kunisaki to Vietnam beach or island? Never heard. So it's surprise to me.

I believe our forces were given a complete tour of Danang!

 

[hans]

Brahmos is not effective against modern anti-air warship like 052D.
a super nice target for the 052D anti-air missile..
Also how many missile can you buy?
052D has 64 anti-air missiles loaded....
Can Vietnam buy that number of Brahmos ?

Not offending, but if it was Brahmos-M (Mach 3.5), not KH-59 ... air launched from Su-30MK2 or Su-27 ( distance 290 km ), that means the vital moments come to 052D or any other warships.

That's why Vietnam ordered more Su-30MK2 and start to order Brahmos missiles.

View attachment 154394

 

[The Great One]

Brahmos is not effective against modern anti-air warship like 052D.
a super nice target for the 052D anti-air missile..
Also how many missile can you buy?
052D has 64 anti-air missiles loaded....
Can Vietnam buy that number of Brahmos ?

So far only Aster 30, SM 3, Barak 8 have shown and claimed decisive capability against Brahmos class missiles. Which of these does 052D have?

 

[BoQ77]

Brahmos is not effective against modern anti-air warship like 052D.
a super nice target for the 052D anti-air missile..
Also how many missile can you buy?
052D has 64 anti-air missiles loaded....
Can Vietnam buy that number of Brahmos ?

@hans: let believe your own statement and you woud sleep well.

 

[sicsheep]

So far only Aster 30, SM 3, Barak 8 have shown and claimed decisive capability against Brahmos class missiles. Which of these does 052D have?

could you show some source, Barak 8 is designed to equip Israeli corvette, even upgraded they have very short range compared to missile in its class,(HQ-9 is upgraded S-300) , not to mention your EL/M-2248 MF-STAR radar can only detect sea skimming targets at 25 km, giving you very little to no reaction time.

052D on the other hand is our 2nd generation "Aegis" system, the radar has somewhat twice the range, so I say if Kolkata can defeat Brahmos type missiles, what do we have to worry about?

 

[The Great One]

could you show some source, Barak 8 is designed to equip Israeli corvette, even upgraded they have very short range compared to missile in its class,(HQ-9 is upgraded S-300) , not to mention your EL/M-2248 MF-STAR radar can only detect sea skimming targets at 25 km, giving you very little to no reaction time.

052D on the other hand is our 2nd generation "Aegis" system, the radar has somewhat twice the range, so I say if Kolkata can defeat Brahmos type missiles, what do we have to worry about?

Aster 30 and SM-3 have been tested against GQM 163A Coyote > Sea skimming M2.5+ drone. Barak-8's users (IAI and DRDO) say that it can defeat Yakhont-class some 98% of the time. Since India has BrahMos, I think they know what they are talking about.
And as I said S-300 (or its copies) are not capable of defending against a terminal steep-diving Mach 3 missile so your radar range (of which a link is needed) is useless here.

 

[sicsheep]

Aster 30 and SM-3 have been tested against GQM 163A Coyote > Sea skimming M2.5+ drone. Barak-8's users (IAI and DRDO) say that it can defeat Yakhont-class some 98% of the time. Since India has BrahMos, I think they know what they are talking about.
And as I said S-300 (or its copies) are not capable of defending against a terminal steep-diving Mach 3 missile so your radar range (of which a link is needed) is useless here.

Yes i am aware, but i dont think it is fair to comapre Barak 8 to HHQ-9, barak 8 is a terminal stage defense upgraded with longer range, (like say sea sparrow), while HHQ-9 is in the same class of SM-2 if not better, with it's range, it will be intercepting the incoming target way before it is in the "terminal steep-diving" stage?

Yes, India has both Barak-8 and brahmos no question, but if any test is done the condition is unknown, regarding what radar was used and weather if the incoming direction was known, how much warning was given...etc. 98% should be a computer simulated test giving very very good radar performance so the performance of the missile itself can be evaluated. I highly doubt they fired 100 yakhont/brahmos to test it?

also link for you below.

Quote
"
The Type 052D carries a Type 346 AESA radar and a Type 518 L-band radar paired with the CPMIEC HQ-9B surface-to-air missile defense system. The HQ-9B is thought to have an effective range of about 200 kilometers or roughly 108 nautical miles"
Unquote

Can China's New Destroyer Find U.S. Stealth Fighters? - USNI News

 

[BoQ77]

I believe our forces were given a complete tour of Danang!

I only think about this, before.

 

[The Great One]

Yes i am aware, but i dont think it is fair to comapre Barak 8 to HHQ-9, barak 8 is a terminal stage defense upgraded with longer range, (like say sea sparrow), while HHQ-9 is in the same class of SM-2 if not better, with it's range, it will be intercepting the incoming target way before it is in the "terminal steep-diving" stage?

Yes, India has both Barak-8 and brahmos no question, but if any test is done the condition is unknown, regarding what radar was used and weather if the incoming direction was known, how much warning was given...etc. 98% should be a computer simulated test giving very very good radar performance so the performance of the missile itself can be evaluated. I highly doubt they fired 100 yakhont/brahmos to test it?

also link for you below.

Quote
"
The Type 052D carries a Type 346 AESA radar and a Type 518 L-band radar paired with the CPMIEC HQ-9B surface-to-air missile defense system. The HQ-9B is thought to have an effective range of about 200 kilometers or roughly 108 nautical miles"
Unquote

Can China's New Destroyer Find U.S. Stealth Fighters? - USNI News

Your link doesn't give any range for the radar.
While HQ-9 does have the tremendous range advantage, it is not in Barak-8's class >>Barak-8 has lateral acceleration of 80G. Even S-400's most manouverable missile - 9M96E does only 40G, longer range ones are worst.

As for testing BrahMos against Barak-8. Although flight characteristics of BrahMos/Yakhont will be made known in the designing phase, they aren't going to actually let the Israeli's test BrahMos. You aren't going to see any tests for now untill it is inducted in the Indian Navy.
And don't forget any real-world limitations you put on the MF-STAR shall be equally applicable on your Type-346.

 

[William Hung]

Quote
"
The Type 052D carries a Type 346 AESA radar and a Type 518 L-band radar paired with the CPMIEC HQ-9B surface-to-air missile defense system. The HQ-9B is thought to have an effective range of about 200 kilometers or roughly 108 nautical miles"
Unquote

Can China's New Destroyer Find U.S. Stealth Fighters? - USNI News

200km range against what? do you know?

 

[BoQ77]

200km range against what? do you know?

Sorry , I corrected it.

125 km to 27,000m aircraft
50 km to 18,000m air-ground missiles
15 km to surface lauched cruise missiles
25 km to 15,000m ballistic missiles ( easier to estimate the coordinates )

Brahmos is one of the best supersonic cruise missile, use sea skimming technique to hide from radar.

I'm not sure which range Type 052D could detect coming Brahmos.

Brahmos missiles would leave very little time for target to react.

 

[William Hung]

I guess 200km against ballistic missiles at altitude 30 kilometers.

No way, thats very hard to believe. S-400 (which uses better missiles than HQ-9) can only intercept ballistic missiles at under 50km range.

200km sounds more like the interception range against a Boeing 767. But I'm waiting for my friend to answer.

 

[BoQ77]

No way, thats very hard to believe. S-400 (which uses better missiles than HQ-9) can only intercept ballistic missiles at under 50km range.

200km sounds more like the interception range against a Boeing 767. But I'm waiting for my friend to answer.

I mean tactical ballistic missile

 

[sicsheep]

Your link doesn't give any range for the radar.
While HQ-9 does have the tremendous range advantage, it is not in Barak-8's class >>Barak-8 has lateral acceleration of 80G. Even S-400's most manouverable missile - 9M96E does only 40G, longer range ones are worst.

As for testing BrahMos against Barak-8. Although flight characteristics of BrahMos/Yakhont will be made known in the designing phase, they aren't going to actually let the Israeli's test BrahMos. You aren't going to see any tests for now untill it is inducted in the Indian Navy.
And don't forget any real-world limitations you put on the MF-STAR shall be equally applicable on your Type-346.

Unlike a land based SAM system, Maneuverability does not mean alot if the missile is coming at you, and you are it's target.
the incoming missile unlike aircraft does not have jamming or countermeasure, neither does it change path very often, there is almost no need , or no time to re-acquire target for and circle around, reaction time is always more important than maneuverability.
also one advantage of vertical launched SAM is to go for target head on once it gains energy, and not needing to adjust launch direction.
lateral acceleration means the missile is fast and capable of taking Gs, so does a 18th century cannon ball, but doesn't mean it flies backwards or makes 90 degrees turns like UFOs,

if it is 052D we are talking about, the west estimate the 346A is on par with US SPY-1, which ranges around 100+NM or 200 KM. since the ship is new there is no official numbers on it.