Japan to Develop 6th Generation Fighter With US Help

[UKBengali]

Because of this....

It shows Japan ahead of USA.

You want to downplay USA military industrial capabilities then?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Why not criticise France and Germany for expensive tanks though?

Your point is invalid.

more expensive, same performance = bad. Would you pay BMW prices for a Toyota? Also, Leopard 2A6 is 5.7M USD, still cheaper than Type 10.

 

[UKBengali]

more expensive, same performance = bad. Would you pay BMW prices for a Toyota? Also, Leopard 2A6 is 5.7M USD, still cheaper than Type 10.

Yes as Japan has far more military equipment export restrictions in place unlike Germany.

French Leclerc tank costs similar to Japanese Type-10

We are gradually seeing Japan allowing export of more and more of their military equipment.

F-3 is likely to be marketed abroad aggressively hence bringing down it's cost.

I think your criticism of Japan is unfair and they are well capable of making a next-gen fighter as long as there is assistance from USA in the areas of engines and stealth. They however cannot make something competitive if they tried to do it all alone and it would end up like the J-20 is now with underpowered engines and some compromises in areas like stealth.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Yes as Japan has far more military equipment export restrictions in place unlike Germany.

French Leclerc tank costs similar to Japanese Type-10

We are gradually seeing Japan allowing export of more and more of their military equipment.

F-3 is likely to be marketed abroad aggressively hence bringing down it's cost.

I think your criticism of Japan is unfair and they are well capable of making a next-gen fighter as long as there is assistance from USA in the areas of engines and stealth. They however cannot make something competitive if they tried to do it all alone and it would end up like the J-20 is now with underpowered engines and some compromises in areas like stealth.

J-20 can have new engines integrated. So can the Japanese 6th gen, if it makes it that far. but stealth is a whole different story.

"Help in stealth" = help in designing the whole plane because shaping is the #1 contributor to RF signature reduction. You can't just bolt "stealth modules" on like some accessory, it's either there from the start or it's not. If Japan can't handle the stealth part it can't make the plane at all, simple as that.

 

[UKBengali]

J-20 can have new engines integrated. So can the Japanese 6th gen, if it makes it that far. but stealth is a whole different story.

"Help in stealth" = help in designing the whole plane because shaping is the #1 contributor to RF signature reduction. You can't just bolt "stealth modules" on like some accessory, it's either there from the start or it's not. If Japan can't handle the stealth part it can't make the plane at all, simple as that.

If China can design a decent stealth airframe so can Japan.

I am talking about stealth materials that Japan would need help on.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

If China can design a decent stealth airframe so can Japan.

I am talking about stealth materials that Japan would need help on.

What evidence is there that Japan can design any airframe? Have they designed any tactical aircraft airframes? No. F-2 = F-16.

 

[UKBengali]

What evidence is there that Japan can design any airframe? Have they designed any tactical aircraft airframes? No. F-2 = F-16.

F-2 partially counts as Japan designed the 25% larger wings themselves from the base F-16 and as you know wings are the most difficult part of the airframe. It is not the same as what countries like Turkey do which is simply assembly and manufacture of a pre-existing design.

Experience? T-4 trainer, Kawasaki C1 and C2 transport aircraft, Kawasaki P1 maritime patrol aircraft etc.

In the non-military field Mitsubishi have the Spacejet passenger jet in service.

Yes they do not have as much experience as China has, but there is enough there for them to succeed and make a superb next-gen fighter with assistance from US in engine and stealth materials.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

F-2 partially counts as Japan designed the 25% larger wings themselves from the base F-16 and as you know wings are the most difficult part of the airframe.

Experience? T-4 trainer, Kawasaki C1 and C2 transport aircraft, Kawasaki P1 maritime patrol aircraft etc.

In the non-military field Mitsubishi have the Spacejet passenger jet in service.

Yes they do not have as much experience as China has, but there is enough there for them to succeed and make a superb next-gen fighter with assistance from US in engine and stealth materials.

those aren't tactical aircraft. they're transports or trainers. the performance is very different because their requirements are different i.e. tactical aircraft requires maneuverability and speed, transports require fuel efficiency. the shaping requirements are likewise very different.

 

[UKBengali]

those aren't tactical aircraft. they're transports or trainers. the performance is very different because their requirements are different i.e. tactical aircraft requires maneuverability and speed, transports require fuel efficiency. the shaping requirements are likewise very different.

Yeah I know but they are aircraft at the end of the day.

Let us leave this now as we will not agree for sure - if Turkey and S Korea with less experience than Japan are developing next-gen aircraft then at least we may be able to agree that richer Japan has more chances than them.

Although to add, the Japanese plan on using their own 15 ton class engine. Development of the prototype jet engine model called XF9-1 was completed in 2018 and was handed over to the Ministry of Defense for evaluation in June 2018.

https://www.ihi.co.jp/ihi/all_news/2018/aeroengine_space_defense/2018-6-29/index.html
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/pinup/pinup300629.pdf

The XF9-1 was developed from the XF5-1 pictured below which was used in the X-2 tech demonstrator.

The experience with developing the XF5-1 was used not only for developing the XF9-1 but also for the development of the engine used in the P-1 maritime patrol aircraft, the X7 engine.

So there's been a lot of jet engine development activities going on in the past 15 years. Here's a video of the XF9-1 for the new F-3 fighter carrying out acceleration phased testing.

Here's a general review about the FX9-1 engine.

Thanks for this very informative post.

I was surprised when I found out just how much experience that Japan has in independent engine manufacture - it is only behind the UN's P5, with China only recently overtaking it with massive efforts in the field over the last decade.

Apart from this Japan has a major stake in commercial jet engines in the IAE partnership.

 

[gambit]

Avionics is definitely not leading edge. I was simply mentioning a now mature node that Japan does not have as an example of how far they're falling behind. It is also a fact that Japan does not have leading edge foundries or even one for the mature 14 nm node. This is seen throughout every business practice Japan does, ranging from using fax machines to still using 1990's Yahoo.

If you want to talk semiconductor, we can always talk semiconductor. Here's one thing we can talk about: GaN RF devices being touted as some secret sauce when ALD GaN has been commercially available for years. Is it so secret and amazing when Qorvo, Cree and Sanan are advertising commercial foundry services for it? Hmm.

Am just going to say one thing: You do not know what you are talking about.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Am just going to say one thing: You do not know what you are talking about.

lol sure. that's why you copy/paste Wikipedia articles instead of demonstrating any inside knowledge, because you're an expert, instead of someone that's been washed out of the industry for 20+ years if you were ever in it in the first place. you mentioned something about you being some equipment installation technician?

 

[Suika]

Yeah I know but they are aircraft at the end of the day.

Let us leave this now as we will not agree for sure - if Turkey and S Korea with less experience than Japan are developing next-gen aircraft then at least we may be able to agree that richer Japan has more chances than them.




Thanks for this very informative post.

I was surprised when I found out just how much experience that Japan has in independent engine manufacture - it is only behind the UN's P5, with China only recently overtaking it with massive efforts in the field over the last decade.

Apart from this Japan has a major stake in commercial jet engines in the IAE partnership.

Thx, but the trolls get me to make an informative post once in while though.. so not to happy to share actually.

Am just going to say one thing: You do not know what you are talking about.

Exactly.

Except for one thing, as a troll, he's applying the win by exhaustion to the other side. That's all he's doing now.

Sincere: 2+2 = 4

Troll: NO!! It does not.

Sincere: And 1+2 = 3

Troll: No it doesn't. Also the first three letters in the alphabet is ABC so your wrong.

Sincere: But that's not related. That's not math.

Troll: 2+2 does not equal 4.

Sincere: Of course it does, 1 2 and 1 2 makes 4.

Troll: No it doesn't. Also the next letters are DEF.

Sincere: That's also not math, that's English or language in general, and is not related.

Troll: Math is said to be a language and ABC is used in formulas.

Sincere: Well yes but your previous point about ABC and DEF is not related to the subject of math, the point is strictly related to addition in Math.

Troll: 2+2 does not equal 4.

Sincere: Yeah, whatever troll.

Troll: See you buddy. Learn how to count. You were wrong.



He's just trying to win by exhausting the other side.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

A lot of countries are trying to skip 5th gen and go directly for 6th gen.

so US will help Japan develop a Japanese 6th gen, when Japan doesn't even have 5th gen, and US does not even have a bid for 6th gen up? lol.

 

[Suika]

...

Yes they do not have as much experience as China has, but there is enough there for them to succeed and make a superb next-gen fighter with assistance from US in engine and stealth materials.

Sometimes senior members of a forums try to mediate two sides (regardless whether or not one side is trolling) just for the sake of fostering posting. Sorry to apply the suspicion here, but I've seen that a lot up until now.

My previous post shows that Japan has the engine. So assistance from the US for the engine is not necessary.

Furthermore, Japan demonstrated stealth material capability in a stealth testing facility in France with a mock up. Japan originally asked the US to conduct the stealth test but the US declined to offer, so Japan went to France. It was back in 2007/2008. US assistance might help make the stealth quality a little better. But that's a might, we don't know. Stealth is a big topic on its own.

 

[dbc]

Because of this....

what is industrial design applications?