Japan to Develop 6th Generation Fighter With US Help

[Suika]

Japan's been a US vassal since the end of WW2. Nothing new.

Japan has freedom of expression in the political realm as well as on the internet. Japan has democratic process of elections. Japan has a multi-party political structure. All these mean that if the US applies overbearing influence on Japanese, then the Japanese can speak up and have a guaranteed path towards altering path regards to the US. Citizens of the PRC do not have these rights. So pro-CCP posters have no say in the matter.

Yes I know that Japan is the most advanced in engine tech behind the UN P5, but it would probably struggle to develop a truly competitive engine for a 6th gen fighter so would need to incorporate some US tech into this fighter in the areas of stealth and engines. Rest of the plane it can do itself.

This is the engine going to be used. Its right up there in the same class as the engines in the F-22. The European countries nor the PRC have this class of engine yet. Only the US and Russia, and now Japan.

6th generation isn't so much about further evolution of jet engines. It's about networking, electronic warfare, and wingmen drones. Long term upgradability will be important too. That's were the US will help.

Ridiculous Japan cant develop 5th generation plane and now planning to do 6th generation.

Japan is buying 5th generation F-35s. So no need to develop and deploy domestically made 5th generation fighter. But many of the technologies for 5th generation have been developed and tested in the X-2 tech demonstrator/"Shinshin" program. So that development is used for going to 6th generation.

 

[Suika]

It's a shame how China cornered JAPAN into working with a western hegemon.
China somehow started believing their own propaganda bureau's anti Japanese facade and than made some serious political blunders out of pure spite ,in very dumb manner .

Japan and the US share common security interests regarding China. It is good to keep relations with the US good. Having a partner country involved in the program is a good way of getting international support for the program. Many of the Pro-CCP posters here like to value the "PRC can do all alone" approach, but by going at it alone and going against geopolitical interests of many other countries puts them at strategic disadvantage in the end.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Japan can well afford 20-30 billion dollars over the next 15 years if it wanted to.

Track record? F-2, Kawasaki P1 and C2 among others.

F-2 was derived from F-16, not an original design. Kawasaki P1 uses the laughably underpowered IHI powerplants with merely 60 kN while C2 uses imported GE engines. For reference, similar high bypass turbofans like the GE/Safran LEAP is at 140 kN.

That's a mediocre track record of no original high performance tactical aircraft. Just because they can make some mediore transports and copy a F-16 doesn't mean they can make a high performance tactical aircraft.

The cost of a tactical fighter program is nowhere near 30 billion. Try 300 billion, minimum. And knowing Japan, they'd triple the cost, double the time, cover up mistakes like they did for coronavirus, and come out with a wooden model like the Shinshin.

 

[zhxy]

If there was a war between the United States and China, Japan would join the United States in attacking China. To prevent the second Nanjing massacre, China needs to develop a new stealth bomber and build at least 1 million MOABs to destroy Japan's war machine.

The final solution is a nuclear weapon.

 

[IblinI]

If there was a war between the United States and China, Japan would join the United States in attacking China. To prevent the second Nanjing massacre, China needs to develop a new stealth bomber and build at least 1 million MOABs to destroy Japan's war machine.

The world is economically and physically over by the time any foreign soldiers step into the mainland.

 

[Suika]

"Japan will be developing its next-generation fighter jet, the Mitsubishi F-3, in conjunction with American companies. The F-3 is set to replace the currently serving Mitsubishi F-2 starting in the 2030s."
At least read the article before you typed.

Well "Next-generation" could be understood as next generation after F-35 because that's the order of aircraft introduction.

F-4 and F-1 --> F-15 --> F-2 --> F-35 --> F-3

While I suspect that you are another Pro-CCP poster that cares more about smearing what is counter to CCP China's geopolitical interest rather than taking an unbiased approach with interest in just knowing how things are, but coming straight from Ministry of Defense documents shows the progression plan of fighter procurement and the F-3 is step up above F-35.

It's on page 14.
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/agenda/guideline/2019/pdf/20190801.pdf

Granted, "6th generation" is a loose interpretation. The F-3 is going to be designed as air-superiority fighter and will clearly be superior to the F-35 in that regard and for that mission, it may include 6th generation elements such as drone wingman support. F-35 was designed as general multi-role and less empahsis on air superiority with the F-22 maintaining that role. But drone wingman support may end up be upgrading into the F-35 later anyway, thus bringing F-35 to 5.5 generation or 5++ generation or just plain 6th generation, however people want to apply fancy terms.

If there was a war between the United States and China, Japan would join the United States in attacking China. To prevent the second Nanjing massacre, China needs to develop a new stealth bomber and build at least 1 million MOABs to destroy Japan's war machine.

The final solution is a nuclear weapon.

Japan's ground forces has no hope of a land invasion of China. That old history isn't going to be repeated.

 

[IblinI]

Well "Next-generation" could be understood as next generation after F-35 because that's the order of aircraft introduction.

F-4 and F-1 --> F-15 --> F-2 --> F-35 --> F-3

While I suspect that you are another Pro-CCP poster that cares more about smearing what is counter to CCP China's geopolitical interest rather than taking an unbiased approach with interest in just knowing how things are, but coming straight from Ministry of Defense documents shows the progression plan of fighter procurement and the F-3 is step up above F-35.

It's on page 14.
https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/agenda/guideline/2019/pdf/20190801.pdf

Granted, "6th generation" is a loose interpretation. The F-3 is going to be designed as air-superiority fighter and will clearly be superior to the F-35 in that regard and for that mission, it may include 6th generation elements such as drone wingman support. F-35 was designed as general multi-role and less empahsis on air superiority with the F-22 maintaining that role. But drone wingman support may end up be upgrading into the F-35 later anyway, thus bringing F-35 to 5.5 generation or 5++ generation or just plain 6th generation, however people want to apply fancy terms.

Leaves politics out of the technological discussion, oh wait, but ofc this is too much to expect from you.
There is nothing to discuss anyway as nothing will be solid until the claimed 2030s.

 

[tower9]

Japan has freedom of expression in the political realm as well as on the internet. Japan has democratic process of elections. Japan has a multi-party political structure. All these mean that if the US applies overbearing influence on Japanese, then the Japanese can speak up and have a guaranteed path towards altering path regards to the US. Citizens of the PRC do not have these rights. So pro-CCP posters have no say in the matter.

.

I don't agree. Even if Japan spoke up, they would only have limited space to demonstrate their autonomy from US foreign policy.

As for China, the world should be glad that the CCP muzzles its citizens because China's netizens are incorrigible nationalists, China's foreign policy would be far more hawkish if it was a democracy.

 

[Suika]

F-2 was derived from F-16, not an original design. Kawasaki P1 uses the laughably underpowered IHI powerplants with merely 60 kN while C2 uses imported GE engines. For reference, similar high bypass turbofans like the GE/Safran LEAP is at 140 kN.

That's a mediocre track record of no original high performance tactical aircraft. Just because they can make some mediore transports and copy a F-16 doesn't mean they can make a high performance tactical aircraft.

The cost of a tactical fighter program is nowhere near 30 billion. Try 300 billion, minimum. And knowing Japan, they'd triple the cost, double the time, cover up mistakes like they did for coronavirus, and come out with a wooden model like the Shinshin.

The F-2 used new wing material for the first time and new ASEA radar type for the first time, both of which were Japanese technology. The engine and avionics were of the of the F-16. SO it was not a straight copy. The material and in particular the radar technology passed on the to the US.

This time with the F-3, in addition to again Japanese radar and air frame materials is Japanese engine and Japanese weapon bay.

There's an advantage with using 4 engines in the P-1 instead of two which is that the aircraft has more redundancy incase of an engine failure or if an engine is destroyed. And they enable slower cruising speeds. Both redundancy and slower cruising speeds are keep design points for maritime patrol aircraft. It's actually an advantage the P-1 has over the P-8.

C-2 imports US engines, that's true, if it's the best engine available, then why not. Japanese share in other commercial air high pass engines shows Japanese experience with engines. CF-34-8 and-10 are 30% Japanese share. Japanese share in V2500 and PW1100G are 23%. And 15.5% in Trent 1000.

Leaves politics out of the technological discussion, oh wait, but ofc this is too much to expect from you.
There is nothing to discuss anyway as nothing will be solid until the claimed 2030s.

Which also works the otherway towards claims that say nothing will come out of the program because of false arguments about "no engine history, etc".

I don't agree. Even if Japan spoke up, they would only have limited space to demonstrate their autonomy from US foreign policy.

As for China, the world should be glad that the CCP muzzles its citizens because China's netizens are incorrigible nationalists, China's foreign policy would be far more hawkish if it was a democracy.

A prime example of Japanese policy taking a different direction from the US is the CPTPP. It was a US-led program, but the US left. Japan took the mantlet and continued the negotiation process and now CPTPP is live with 7 active member countries with other countries such as Thailand and Taiwan looking to join.

 

[Leishangthem]

Japan's been a US vassal since the end of WW2. Nothing new.

Japan wouldn't have a reason to be if China was more amiable toward them.

Japan fully realizes how countries like S.Korea and China have constantly vilified Japan and used japan to stroke nationalism through relentless propaganda and divert blame from their own gov.
In the Korean political scene, the anti-japanese propaganda has spiralled out of control.
In Korea from their political sphere to the movie industry all depends on anti-Japanese rhetoric.Even old people get beaten to death randomly for holding favourable view of japan's colonial past(based on historical records most koreans were pro-japanese ,no reason to not be).

The old propaganda bureau of china has also invested heavily in anti-Japanese propaganda and made a whole museum with fake pictures about the Japanese invasion.

Japan realises that Chinese has actually started believing some of that facade by the propaganda bureau,and have a very insidious will of harming japan in the name of vengeance and retribution.

When Japan arrested some chinese fishermen ,the way Chinese tackled the matter was totally dumb.China had threatened Japan into releasing the fishermen, Japan did release the fishermen under coercion and was humiliated on international stage,but China wasn't satisfied they even went on and on and asked Japan to apologize. Totally unnecessary and very spiteful.
This has sent a very bad precedent about china as a superpower for the nation all across the world, especially Japan.

This clearly signified how belligerent China is when it comes to Japan,now since China has upper hand in some industry sectors and greater military might but China is extensively meek when it comes to UK ,the country that had actually set the scene for the 200 years humiliation and caused millions of casualties,meanwhile the belligerence toward Japan is something else.Because they aren't a western nation...
So how can japan feel safe and trust the Chinese ?

 

[IblinI]

Which also works the otherway towards claims that say nothing will come out of the program because of false arguments about "no engine history, etc".

Then what is the point for you to be here, at least come back when there is a prototype.

The United States, Japan and South Korea want China to collapse and weaken permanently
Taiwan wants independence
India wants Tibet
Turkey wants XinJiang
Vietnam wants Guangdong
Philippines wants China Sea
Mongolia with support from Russia will attack China to annex Inner Mongolia into their territory.
Heilongjiang will become Manchuria state.

Pakistan and North Korea choose neutral. The countries of South America and Africa will support anti-China coalition. Indonesia will carry out the genocide of Chinese descent as they did in the past ...

China should not be arrogant and underestimate the enemy.

Well, firstly I don't see what we said here reflect anything in the real world, secondly, being the most hard workers in the globe doesn't sound arrogant to me at all, we are one of the least to be honest, nothing close to the west.

 

[Suika]

Japan wouldn't have a reason to be if China was more amiable toward them.

Japan fully realizes how countries like S.Korea and China have constantly vilified Japan and used japan to stroke nationalism through relentless propaganda and divert blame from their own gov.
In the Korean political scene, the anti-japanese propaganda has spiralled out of control.
In Korea from their political sphere to the movie industry all depends on anti-Japanese rhetoric.Even old people get beaten to death randomly for holding favourable view of japan's colonial past(based on historical records most koreans were pro-japanese ,no reason to not be).

The old propaganda bureau of china has also invested heavily in anti-Chinese propaganda and made a whole museum with fake pictures about the Japanese invasion.

Japan realises that Chinese has actually started believing some of that facade by the propaganda bureau,and have a very insidious will of harming japan in the name of vengeance and retribution.

When Japan arrested some chinese fishermen ,the way Chinese tackled the matter was totally dumb.China had threatened Japan into releasing the fishermen, Japan did release the fishermen and was humiliated on international stage,but China wasn't satisfied they even went on and on and asked Japan to apologize. Totally unnecessary and very spiteful.
This has sent very bad precedent about china as a superpower for the nation all across the world,especially japan.

This clearly signified how belligerent China is when it comes to Japan,now since it has upper hand in some sector and greater military might but China is extensively meek when it comes to UK ,the country that had actually set the scene for the 200 years humiliation and caused millions of casualties,meanwhile the belligerence toward Japan is something else.Because they aren't a western nation...
So how can japan feel safe and trust the Chinese ?

Those are all points I agree much with. The history has been vilified and took advantage of "winner's write history". It doesn't mean hasn't conducted any crimes against humanity. Unit 731 certainly crossed the line. Some of the rape and massacre incidents also crossed the line. But "war crimes" about "Japanese aggression" greatly wash out the full context of history, such as Japanese movement into Manchuria was partly in competition with the Soviet Union (Soviet invasion in Mongolia in early 1920s and Soviet attack of Manchuria area in 1929). But nowhere is the mention of Soviet activities in current media and history narrative. There'S a context to everything that gets washed out. If China and Korea recognized history in the full context and stop introducing exaggerations and false claims, then a greater harmony in East Asia could certainly be achieved, or at least between ROK and Japan. With China there are other matters such as the 9 dash line claim and claim on Taiwan.

 

[tower9]

Japan wouldn't have a reason to be if China was more amiable toward them.

Japan fully realizes how countries like S.Korea and China have constantly vilified Japan and used japan to stroke nationalism through relentless propaganda and divert blame from their own gov.
In the Korean political scene, the anti-japanese propaganda has spiralled out of control.
In Korea from their political sphere to the movie industry all depends on anti-Japanese rhetoric.Even old people get beaten to death randomly for holding favourable view of japan's colonial past(based on historical records most koreans were pro-japanese ,no reason to not be).

The old propaganda bureau of china has also invested heavily in anti-Chinese propaganda and made a whole museum with fake pictures about the Japanese invasion.

Japan realises that Chinese has actually started believing some of that facade by the propaganda bureau,and have a very insidious will of harming japan in the name of vengeance and retribution.

When Japan arrested some chinese fishermen ,the way Chinese tackled the matter was totally dumb.China had threatened Japan into releasing the fishermen, Japan did release the fishermen under coercion and was humiliated on international stage,but China wasn't satisfied they even went on and on and asked Japan to apologize. Totally unnecessary and very spiteful.
This has sent a very bad precedent about china as a superpower for the nation all across the world, especially Japan.

This clearly signified how belligerent China is when it comes to Japan,now since China has upper hand in some industry sectors and greater military might but China is extensively meek when it comes to UK ,the country that had actually set the scene for the 200 years humiliation and caused millions of casualties,meanwhile the belligerence toward Japan is something else.Because they aren't a western nation...
So how can japan feel safe and trust the Chinese ?

The Nanking massacre was not a fabrication and it is ridiculous to assert so.

With that said, I do agree that anti-Japanese propaganda in China has been too extreme and I actually dislike how many Chinese nationalists go out of their way to bash Japan specifically. I think both China and Korea should put aside old grievances and work with Japan in building a sustainable and peaceful East Asian order.

 

[IblinI]

Those are all points I agree much with. The history has been vilified and took advantage of "winner's write history". It doesn't mean hasn't conducted any crimes against humanity. Unit 731 certainly crossed the line. Some of the rape and massacre incidents also crossed the line. But "war crimes" about "Japanese aggression" greatly wash out the full context of history, such as Japanese movement into Manchuria was partly in competition with the Soviet Union (Soviet invasion in Mongolia in early 1920s and Soviet attack of Manchuria area in 1929). But nowhere is the mention of Soviet activities in current media and history narrative. There'S a context to everything that gets washed out. If China and Korea recognized history in the full context and stop introducing exaggerations and false claims, then a greater harmony in East Asia could certainly be achieved, or at least between ROK and Japan. With China there are other matters such as the 9 dash line claim and claim on Taiwan.

Sounds very rational when you are using terms such as " crossed the line" on unit 731, as if there is a line from those creatures.
Hoped there is an emoji vomit.jpg
See you in 2030s, if there is this f3.

 

[Suika]

Sounds very ration when you are using terms such as " crossed the line" on 731 units.
Hoped there is an emoji vomit.jpg

Well in all honesty, there is a history of human live experimentation else where too including both the US and the Soviet Union. But because Japan was defeated, that closet of bones was fully opened for the world too see while other majors powers are hush hush about their closet of bones. So on one hand, Unit 731 needs to not be forgotten be cause have general shared view about it being human experimentation being unethical, but at the same time, Japan shouldn't be so often singled out when others have done similar things. Sadly, it seems to be a side effect of big power countries in global competition. It be kind of naive to assume nothing like it has happened in the PRC it could be said.