J-10 Vs F-16 Technical Comparison

[araz]

AFDP-2019 requirements
what the hell this is

who proposed this single engine idea..

we need a twin engine aircraft.
No single engine aircraft except the the f-35 can be better then Rafale,su 35,EF,

WHY???? Explain why we need a twin engined aircraft.
Araz

 

[araz]

MODS can we please curtail this VS that threads as the relevant information can be discussed in the relevant threads.
Araz

 

[sancho]

oh no! not another bloody comparison

Actually this could be the first vs. thread that could be without any trolling, or biased comments, because it's not about PAF vs IAF. So if the discussion would be neutral and based on facts, it could makes sense, especially for Pakistani members I would say.
J10 and F16 will be the high end of PAF in this decade and it would be interesting to compare, how much more capable the Chinese AESA radar, or avionics for example would be, compared to the APG-68 and US avionics in F16 B52s. Same could be said about t/w ratio, weapon loads, range and so on, because both fighters are exactly in the same class, but the key for a good comparison are facts and not possible, or future capabilities.

 

[jagjitnatt]

I would say the J10 is more advanced than the older F16s, but the newer F16s that the PAF is getting are way more advanced than the earlier blocks.

The F16 Block 52+ are more advanced than the J10. The J10 is a good fighter but F16 is a fighter that has been improved over decades. The latest avionics and missiles make it more deadlier than J10.

Note: Most people believe that an AESA is definitely better than a PESA or a Mechanically steered Radar. It is not so. There are a lot of PESA radars that are more powerful than most AESA radars. It all depends on the number of T/R modules, and the power output of the radar.

 

[gambit]

Note: Most people believe that an AESA is definitely better than a PESA or a Mechanically steered Radar.

Am one of those 'most people'.

It is not so.

It is so.

There are a lot of PESA radars that are more powerful than most AESA radars.

More transmit power does not mean better. The MIG-25's radar was powerful enough to achieve 'burn through' most Western ECM system. But it was practically worthless for anything else.

It all depends on the number of T/R modules, and the power output of the radar.

More precisely, it all depends on the number of T/R modules that are constrained by element spacing which are constrained by antenna size. In other words, each T/R module must be separated from its companion, x and y axis, within a determined criteria, usually half a wavelength apart.

Phazotron Zhuk AE: Assessing Russia's First AESA

This is the basic problem in all AESA designs, insofar as grating lobes require element spacing of less than one half of a wavelength, while the resulting packing density presents heat transfer problems.

Antenna real estate set the final limit on how many elements we can 'array' based upon that element spacing. So the larger that real estate, the more elements we can 'array' and truly the better radar. But a larger antenna mean a larger aircraft.

The superiority of an AESA over a PESA system cannot be overstated. An AESA system offer an inherent flexibility through software upgrades that a PESA system simply cannot match, and that include brute force transmit power if necessary.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Once we will have the 36 J10B we can then compare them to the 40 block c/d f16 and then perhaps we can see which one is better in reality

 

[Manticore]

ive posted this article roughly a year back [as im sure this article is posted many a times here]--- but nowthat j10b has been introduced, its rather useless discussing j10a all over again..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...houldve-invested-more-j-10s-6.html#post365392

please go over the forum once bro--- theres a mighty chance that you will get all of the old articles here anyway.

 

[jagjitnatt]

It is so.

It is not so.

What are the prime important characteristics of a radar? Is it the detection range or is it being flexible enough to be upgraded through software? Or is it being resistant to jamming?


PESA as of today can have detection ranges similar to that of an AESA. The AESA does have other advantages like being resistant to jamming, etc etc.

But the main thing is range and detection. This is where Russian PESA are more powerful than European AESA radars.

Irbis-E is a mechanically steered PESA radar which has more range than western AESA systems in F-35, F-16 and F-18. It rivals the APG-77 in range.

 

[dbc]

It is not so.

What are the prime important characteristics of a radar? Is it the detection range or is it being flexible enough to be upgraded through software? Or is it being resistant to jamming?


PESA as of today can have detection ranges similar to that of an AESA. The AESA does have other advantages like being resistant to jamming, etc etc.

But the main thing is range and detection. This is where Russian PESA are more powerful than European AESA radars.

Irbis-E is a mechanically steered PESA radar which has more range than western AESA systems in F-35, F-16 and F-18. It rivals the APG-77 in range.

OMG...like really! Your stupid BARS radar was shut off at Nellis to save the IAF from embarrassing itself. Do you know why your all powerful Su 30 MKI has canards! go figure that out before you come here and spout nonsense.

 

[jagjitnatt]

OMG...like really! Your stupid BARS radar was shut off at Nellis to save the IAF from embarrassing itself. Do you know why your all powerful Su 30 MKI has canards! go figure that out before you come here and spout nonsense.

This is an absurb comment.

BARS was switched to training mode so that US's surveillance equipment couldn't record the operating frequencies of the radar. Because if it did, it could have created a jamming system to jam BARS.
This is the same reason France was reluctant to bring Rafale to US.

The MKI has canards to provide maneuverability and aid in reducing the min flying speed. It adds stability to the aircraft. It has nothing to do with a radar. What were you thinking when you wrote this?

 

[flanker143]

OMG...like really! Your stupid BARS radar was shut off at Nellis to save the IAF from embarrassing itself.

no it was done to protect the bars working frequencies (the frequencies on which it works )

Do you know why your all powerful Su 30 MKI has canards! go figure that out before you come here and spout nonsense.

canards have been used on mki to even enhance its maneuverability !!!!!

and mister u r the one who is foul language !!! and no one is spouting non sense here !!!!

to some extent jagjit is right but that doesn't mean u r all wrong , mki has got better range than many westrn aesa radars but it hasn't got those new techs like resistance to jamming etc etc , the tech which an aesa has but a pesa hasn't......

luk it all depends upon the opinion. of having advantage......

jagjit feels having more range is an advantage ...
u think having latest tech is better ...

u both r right an d wrong at the same time ...... but actually the jet which has got a mix of both is best !!!!!

so no reason to fight guys !!!!

 

[KEETARP]

What are the prime important characteristics of a radar? Is it the detection range or is it being flexible enough to be upgraded through software? Or is it being resistant to jamming?

1) Back and side- Lobes
2) High Duty cycle to minimize difference between Peak-Power and Avg Power
3) LPI mode of operation

PESA as of today can have detection ranges similar to that of an AESA. The AESA does have other advantages like being resistant to jamming, etc etc.

But the main thing is range and detection. This is where Russian PESA are more powerful than European AESA radars.

Actually , they can not sustain that much peak-power .
Only possible when you have Main beam like this one -

But real main beam is like this -

with that many what we call side-lobes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidelobe

How does it matter -

Look at the graph for 1 and 2 degree side-lobes , it nearly approaches =1/2 Pm , now you have problem
-One is your beam not pencil sharp
-second for every sidelobe nearing 1/2 of P or 1/4 P , you have that many more return to analyze from background
-third sometime sidelobe can be as large as 3dB for first degree , that means you are giving away your position to Jammer/RWR as well .

Irbis-E is a mechanically steered PESA radar which has more range than western AESA systems in F-35, F-16 and F-18. It rivals the APG-77 in range.

See the radome difference ,
hook up that APG80 into the nose of Flanker , and you will have 10 times range of what PESA can give .
Try and fit that IRBIS into F16 , you get a decade old range .

 

[jagjitnatt]

See the radome difference ,
hook up that APG80 into the nose of Flanker , and you will have 10 times range of what PESA can give .
Try and fit that IRBIS into F16 , you get a decade old range .

Are you serious?

what has a radome to do with the radar?

 

[KEETARP]

Are you serious?

what has a radome to do with the radar?

Cmon , i used short-hand meaning - space behind radome to house that antennae

Take it - Nose to be specific

hook up that APG80 into the nose of Flanker

I used exactly that .........

 

[dbc]

This is an absurb comment.

BARS was switched to training mode so that US's surveillance equipment couldn't record the operating frequencies of the radar. Because if it did, it could have created a jamming system to jam BARS.
This is the same reason France was reluctant to bring Rafale to US.

The MKI has canards to provide maneuverability and aid in reducing the min flying speed. It adds stability to the aircraft. It has nothing to do with a radar. What were you thinking when you wrote this?

I think you are deserving of the award presented to you by Growler on the SM-2 thread. A competent radar is capable of frequency agility, if the radar has to be turned off for the fear of revealing operating frequencies then an intelligent person can gauge the radar is incapable of frequency agility and prone to jamming. Will the MKI fly into combat with the radar switched off for the fear of revealing "operating frequencies"? As for the canard the MKI isn't a delta wing to benefit from canards like the Typhoon or Rafale the canards were absent from the first 18 planes received by the IAF these were also missing.. the BARS radar.

The first batch were 8 Su-30MKs , the basic version of Su-30. The second batch were to be 10 Su-30Ks with French and Israeli avionics. The third batch were to be 10 Su-30MKIs featuring canard foreplanes.

Structural changes were required to the forward fuselage to accommodate the larger radar aperture, relocated IRST, aerial refuelling probe and revised avionics. The additional 3,000 lb of empty weight required strengthened undercarriage, dual nosewheels, detail structural changes, and the Su-33's canards were later incorporated. To offset the loss of combat radius due to additional weight the wet portion of the wing was extended to the 13th rib, from the 9th, and a 360 litre tank was added to each vertical tail thus providing a total internal capacity of 22,630 lb (10,250 kg).