J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[CHACHA"G"]

Wah Chacha G wah, what an analogy you have given. But how an Su 30 will will do it once both fighters drop their tanks to get in a merge. Is it a better energy fighter than F-16 or JF-17?
I'll not mention JF-17 here for reasons but look at design of both F-16 and JF-17 and if you know about what I am talking about you will get the idea. Now, I'll need to smash my head in a wall for my ignorance for so long if I find out that Su-30 is a better energy fighter than F-16. It is actually vipers which are re-knowned for this, nothing even to this day beats them in this quality and may be the reason they start getting called vipers. In a long fight they'll happily keep sucking you energy while maintaining their own. If you end up facing a viper in another jet and cannot get a quick result, you absolutely hate them for this. your "bhaga bhaga ke marna" is actually viper's favourite tactic. I do not know for what reason you think otherwise. Dogfights are not about absolute Kgs of fuel you are pushing around with.



Chacha G, I asked how?
Numbers are all not important even if we are talking about BVR combat. All BVR combat is going to occur in 15-50 kms at best depending upon altitude and speed. How will 500 Su 30s be able to even get a track on a J-31 before it actually is useless as they'll have ended in VWR range. Even if a J-31 pilot is stupid or too confident and decides to approach them head-on with radar blazing at full power, with 4 BVR missile how much chance a very large Su 30 has to even try getting in VWR range to have a chance of getting in a fight.
And where will they hide, in calcutta or madras, why the hell will J-31s even need to go there, PAF can just happily and merrily rip apart all air defences and land formations.



If you are mentioning the 1973 war than it is not correct, EAF did well in it, actually Hosni Mubarak I think EAF commander at that time became such a hero that he ended up becoming President later. I do not remember the numbers but I have read in an analysis in staff course material that a significant number of EAF losses in that war was because of fratricide by there own air-defences. Saturating too much air-defence has its cost as well.

Where did I say F16 , I was talking about JF17, and after droop tanks off ,Man do you know how much internal fuel JF17 can carry , and what about SU30 , its almost double ,
And for F16 yes they do have advantage but Newer Blocks Like F16 Block and F16 Block V forget our old F16 which we done MLU, F16 are good Dog fighters but they will face SU30 with SU35 kit and how do you know there will be a dog fight (su35 kit will come aesa radar ).

LOL do you know how many BVR can J31 take in her bailey and how long it can stay in air with out extra fuel tanks , because that will make it a true 5th Gen and also add Radar absorbent material to airframe , J31 with weapons on outer pods and extra fuel tanks and less RAM in airframe is just like an other 4.5++Gen bird .
And y you are imaging that SU30 BVR wont work or it will only work under 50km and all of Pakistani vwr will work and also All of over BVR will work.

You are indirectly just saying that SU30 With SU35 kit are baby toys there BVR wont work , There Radar Wont work , There long Loitering Time wont work , There capacity of Carrying more weapons and advance pods wont work, There advance jamming systems wont work, and there VWR also wont work, and IAF pilots skills to our run PAF Birds also wont work in any type of engagement ,
Please brother Find out about F16 , JF17,J31 there characteristics there load taking ability , there EW suits , there missiles and the range of the missiles, There radars (power) and there RCS , there material of air frame, there engine , the thrust ratio , speed , climbing rate , afterburning thrust ,and list goes on
If we are upgrading our JF17 and having F16 Block 52 then IAF also upgrading SU30 and increasing there numbers , and also keep one more thing in mind IAF will also have 500 other birds ,
Thank you



@Blabla Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa , haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa , Sir this is not 1980 and we don't have any Advance bird that is better then IAF, now we will never have that edge ,

IAF already going for Rafal , if they don't screw up French Avionics for there Tejas, They already have 300 Su30 and they want to have 500 of them and they also planning to upgrade them with SU35 kit, There Next Gen Pak FA will be with them until 2025 . They have advance upgraded MIG29 , USA is ready for selling them F35,
And our JF17 Block 3 will come in 2018 and we not even sure about there Radar and avionics , FC31 No idea or time line for that , F16 majority of our birds are very old They have MLU to bring them Block 52 level , and we have to keep 5 years of stock pile of there spear parts ,
Rest you think again, And please let me know which advance birds you are talking about when they will be in Pakistan colours and how much they will cost us and don't forget telling there numbers,
Thank you

 

[Super Falcon]

Going to a new platform is no easy task we will have to setup an entire infrastructure for that and from what i remember j10 was rejected for future fc 31 deal

Than why u went for F 16 in 83 this mentality is called justification

If suppose u r right than why u invested in JF 17 New platform when u have F 16

It's about what ur enemies have u can't destroy

SU 30 MKI with mirage

Pilot is not everything it's machine also

U can't put worlds best driver on mehran car and worlds worst driver to Lamborghini who wins

Please use some minds

 

[ghazi768]

Where did I say F16 , I was talking about JF17, and after droop tanks off ,Man do you know how much internal fuel JF17 can carry , and what about SU30 , its almost double ,
And for F16 yes they do have advantage but Newer Blocks Like F16 Block and F16 Block V forget our old F16 which we done MLU, F16 are good Dog fighters but they will face SU30 with SU35 kit and how do you know there will be a dog fight (su35 kit will come aesa radar ).

Cacha G, you started this "bhaga bhaga ke marna" analogy, which I think only works in VWR combat. It's not bad to have more internal fuel but Jf-17 will be fine with its internal fuel, its fuel fraction for a single engine is not bad. Also it will have much less drag and most importantly far less drag in turns.
Earlier F-16 models actually performed better in dogfights, they are lighter and have less wing loading. Actually the F-16 production prototype without radar had 25% better performance than F-15 A with a radar added. Adding a radar resulted in enlarging the nose which resulted in lateral instability at higher AOA, this is why F-16A software limit for AOA was changed from a higher to lower degrees. Size, weight or latest block does not mean flight performance will also be better.

LOL do you know how many BVR can J31 take in her bailey and how long it can stay in air with out extra fuel tanks , because that will make it a true 5th Gen and also add Radar absorbent material to airframe , J31 with weapons on outer pods and extra fuel tanks and less RAM in airframe is just like an other 4.5++Gen bird .
And y you are imaging that SU30 BVR wont work or it will only work under 50km and all of Pakistani vwr will work and also All of over BVR will work.

I compared Su 30 BVR strictly against J-31, not against other fighters. You understood me incorrectly, I did not say Su30 will acquire a track lock at 50 kms. I said it will NOT acquire a track lock at 50 kms, if it ever acquires a track lock that will be in VWR range, 15 and below. J31 will carry four BVR inside not outside, I do not know its exact fuel fractions but from its design it should be a 10-12 tons empty with 5-7 tons internal fuel capacity. and that will be very good.

 

[Xerxes1]

[QUOTE="Manticore, post:





''The Northrop Grumman X-47C is

Lol no offense but u make me laugh air chief is waiting for an air raft better than j20 who is gonna give probably he is in contact with some aliens waiting for ufo,s its so easy to fool pak nation no funds no aircraft to hit enemy deep I side their terrorit and ACM is waiting for sixth generation later he ll say no six generation we ll directlly induct seven generation lol

 

[sady]

Pakistani dilemma. Empty pockets+big dreams
The scenario where India decides to go in an all out war or air confrontation, India will surely be in a position of all out dominance otherwise it will not think about such an adventure. US of A will be in total support of such an action.We have to understand this on a strategic level rather than airforce to airforce.
Our best bet is regional alliances starting with China and Turkey and building on it.
Modest numbers of J10s +/- j20 or J31 maybe worthwhile but we have to understand we will never be able to have even credible min deterence to Indian might untill we take care of our corrupt regimes and poor economy. We have to act and live like Israel. No mercy.

 

[MastanKhan]

Wah Chacha G wah, what an analogy you have given. But how an Su 30 will will do it once both fighters drop their tanks to get in a merge. Is it a better energy fighter than F-16 or JF-17?
I'll not mention JF-17 here for reasons but look at design of both F-16 and JF-17 and if you know about what I am talking about you will get the idea. Now, I'll need to smash my head in a wall for my ignorance for so long if I find out that Su-30 is a better energy fighter than F-16. It is actually vipers which are re-knowned for this, nothing even to this day beats them in this quality and may be the reason they start getting called vipers. In a long fight they'll happily keep sucking you energy while maintaining their own. If you end up facing a viper in another jet and cannot get a quick result, you absolutely hate them for this. your "bhaga bhaga ke marna" is actually viper's favourite tactic. I do not know for what reason you think otherwise. Dogfights are not about absolute Kgs of fuel you are pushing around with.



Chacha G, I asked how?
Numbers are all not important even if we are talking about BVR combat. All BVR combat is going to occur in 15-50 kms at best depending upon altitude and speed. How will 500 Su 30s be able to even get a track on a J-31 before it actually is useless as they'll have ended in VWR range. Even if a J-31 pilot is stupid or too confident and decides to approach them head-on with radar blazing at full power, with 4 BVR missile how much chance a very large Su 30 has to even try getting in VWR range to have a chance of getting in a fight.
And where will they hide, in calcutta or madras, why the hell will J-31s even need to go there, PAF can just happily and merrily rip apart all air defences and land formations.



If you are mentioning the 1973 war than it is not correct, EAF did well in it, actually Hosni Mubarak I think EAF commander at that time became such a hero that he ended up becoming President later. I do not remember the numbers but I have read in an analysis in staff course material that a significant number of EAF losses in that war was because of fratricide by there own air-defences. Saturating too much air-defence has its cost as well.

Hi,

You are talking about the suez invasion---okay---till the time---as long the egyptian military stayed in that arena of the suez embankments---they were protected by the SA batteries that were dug in and the israelis suffered heavy aircraft losses----.

But the egyptian air force was decimated otherwise in air to air contact---the mig had to land every 1/2 hour to refuel----the phantoms could stay up for around 3 1/2 hours---the equation was very simple for the Idaf.

Sir Correct me if I m wrong PAF's F16 Pilots and Ground Staff helps Chines in Building J10 , At least that was in media in Mushi Times like around 2002.
So Basically J10 is advance Chinese version of F16 with Delta Wings *(these wings do have some short comings but the advantages they have you wont find them in F16 ).
Thank you


HAHAHAHAHAHA , Sir now you are just putting salt on our wounds

Hi,

Actually the J10 is the advanced version of the israeli Lavi aircraft---lavi was and upgrade of the F16's.

Yes there was initially the news about paf engineers assisting the chinese---. The reason being---the chinese did not have any access to finess of the american and european weapons systems--and pakistan being in the know---knew about the ergonomics of a well made design.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

Its the shining sword that sends the shiver down the enemy's spine not the daggers. PAF need a shining sword we have our daggers(jf.17,f16). I think we are doing good in regards to the project JF17 with Chinese and therefore stay focsed on it while keeping a very close eye on J20. Which are the platforms that PAF can acquire which will really make Indians nervous and shake their confidence. I don't think Indians are worried about J10C in PAF inventory but if the choice is SU35 or EF2000. I prefer EF2000 because it does diversify our capabilities especially regarding the electronic and weapons systems. Indians will have to counter and develop counter strategies against 3 different types of technology systems which is bit complicated, J10C in this regards makes it easy for Indians.US will most certainly help Indian to counter SU35 and Indians knowledge of SU30s makes it a easy for Indians. Eurofighter however is completely different platform and US is not focused on developing counter strategies to counter EF or its not their primary objective compare to J10c and SU35. EF will make it very hard and put tremendous pressure on Indian AF. An example is MBDA Meteor in our inventory and possibility of having it on JF17. Going Russian and Chinese way shuts the door of western war proven weapon systems but if we bring EF in our air fleet then we can keep a door open in acquiring western weapon systems of future and also a chance to make JF17 more deadly.
Just a humble opinion.

 

[Blabla]

Its the shining sword that sends the shiver down the enemy's spine not the daggers. PAF need a shining sword we have our daggers(jf.17,f16). I think we are doing good in regards to the project JF17 with Chinese and therefore stay focsed on it while keeping a very close eye on J20. Which are the platforms that PAF can acquire which will really make Indians nervous and shake their confidence. I don't think Indians are worried about J10C in PAF inventory but if the choice is SU35 or EF2000. I prefer EF2000 because it does diversify our capabilities especially regarding the electronic and weapons systems. Indians will have to counter and develop counter strategies against 3 different types of technology systems which is bit complicated, J10C in this regards makes it easy for Indians.US will most certainly help Indian to counter SU35 and Indians knowledge of SU30s makes it a easy for Indians. Eurofighter however is completely different platform and US is not focused on developing counter strategies to counter EF or its not their primary objective compare to J10c and SU35. EF will make it very hard and put tremendous pressure on Indian AF. An example is MBDA Meteor in our inventory and possibility of having it on JF17. Going Russian and Chinese way shuts the door of western war proven weapon systems but if we bring EF in our air fleet then we can keep a door open in acquiring western weapon systems of future and also a chance to make JF17 more deadly.
Just a humble opinion.

obsolete EF 2000 price of one unit is 400 million can you imagine ? PAF cannot afford sorry

 

[Humble Analyst]

Its the shining sword that sends the shiver down the enemy's spine not the daggers. PAF need a shining sword we have our daggers(jf.17,f16). I think we are doing good in regards to the project JF17 with Chinese and therefore stay focsed on it while keeping a very close eye on J20. Which are the platforms that PAF can acquire which will really make Indians nervous and shake their confidence. I don't think Indians are worried about J10C in PAF inventory but if the choice is SU35 or EF2000. I prefer EF2000 because it does diversify our capabilities especially regarding the electronic and weapons systems. Indians will have to counter and develop counter strategies against 3 different types of technology systems which is bit complicated, J10C in this regards makes it easy for Indians.US will most certainly help Indian to counter SU35 and Indians knowledge of SU30s makes it a easy for Indians. Eurofighter however is completely different platform and US is not focused on developing counter strategies to counter EF or its not their primary objective compare to J10c and SU35. EF will make it very hard and put tremendous pressure on Indian AF. An example is MBDA Meteor in our inventory and possibility of having it on JF17. Going Russian and Chinese way shuts the door of western war proven weapon systems but if we bring EF in our air fleet then we can keep a door open in acquiring western weapon systems of future and also a chance to make JF17 more deadly.
Just a humble opinion.

Hey nice analysis, somebody withn a brain and he uses it too but the problem is money bro

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

obsolete EF 2000 price of one unit is 400 million can you imagine ? PAF cannot afford sorry

Give me one fighter in PAF inventory that can match EF Tranche 3A upgrade? Any in Indian inventory? 400 million a unit but we already have half of the weapons that EF uses. Add the easier access to radars and weapon systems for JF17 from Europe(Itlay). Consider again lol.

 

[Blabla]

Give me one fighter in PAF inventory that can match EF Tranche 3A upgrade? Any in Indian inventory? 400 million a unit but we already have half of the weapons that EF uses. Add the easier access to radars and weapon systems for JF17 from Europe(Itlay). Consider again lol.

Acquiring new EF 2000 PAF cannot afford ( Qatar has paid 9 billion dollar for 28 EF 2000 Tranche 3A )personally I am a fan of Eurofighter there is only one way to acquire such birds is get used one or maybe Saudi Arabia can subsides or the EU which I don't think will likely to happen. But if PAF want to spend 9 billion dollar with 2 billion 24 SU 35s ,1.5 billion 24 Su34 , 2 billion dollar 50-60 JF 17 block III at least , with 2 Billion dollar at least (24) J-20 or J-31 can be acquired (2+2+2+1.5=7.5 billion) 124 atleast state of jets Pakistan navy can also acquire Advance Covettes or Nuclear submarines so its pointless to spend money on EF 2000

 

[Viper0011.]

Acquiring new EF 2000 PAF cannot afford ( Qatar has paid 9 billion dollar for 28 EF 2000 Tranche 3A )personally I am a fan of Eurofighter there is only one way to acquire such birds is get used one or maybe Saudi Arabia can subsides or the EU which I don't think will likely to happen. But if PAF want to spend 9 billion dollar with 2 billion 24 SU 35s ,1.5 billion 24 Su34 , 2 billion dollar 50-60 JF 17 block III at least , with 2 Billion dollar at least (24) J-20 or J-31 can be acquired (2+2+2+1.5=7.5 billion) 124 atleast state of jets Pakistan navy can also acquire Advance Covettes or Nuclear submarines so its pointless to spend money on EF 2000

Why go in so many directions? There is a much simpler option. The US hasn't put any sanctions on Pakistan. They are just saying pay cash. I understand the sentiment in Pakistan so its fine. Don't pay cash. But here's what I'd do. You have to look at both, short term and long term needs. Long term because as the economy grows, by 2018, you'd have $ 2-4 billion easily to buy jets on cash. So here's what I'd do:

1) Buy F-16 spared for 7-10 years (the PAF currently maintains about 5 years worth of spares up front to avoid sanctions impact, just in case).

2) Buy used 20-40 F-16's from other countries on cash. You should be able to get Block 40+ easily for half the price. That would give you immediate boost in numbers and capability. Plus having 5-7 years worth of spares would ensure proper capability for close to a decade, even in sanctions.

3) Buy advance AMRAAMS, etc, for the newly acquired block 52 F-16's. Use C5 versions on these used F-16's, and upgrade the used ones with SNIPER POD, etc.

4) Make sure you keep trade, education, military and other relations with the US as it would definitely help investing in Pakistan's growing economy. So an aircraft deal doesn't need to cause animosity when the US can help Pakistan get billions in economic investments. Its in Pakistan's best interest as she's a growing country. This is how mature nations handle disputes with grace.

5) Advance JFT block III with advanced tech from J-10B (AESA, etc). And increase air-frame slightly to add 2-3 more hard points for block IV with tech stuff miniaturized from FC-31 so you are almost on par with the F-16 block 52 about 90-95% (more in some cases, like AESA, etc).

6) Go for an advanced option, whether FC-31, J-11D or J-15 or SU-35 (Russia), either one should be good. I know many Chinese members would say that the J-11 and 16 aren't available for export, but I am VERY sure, if push comes to shove, the Russians would either allow it, or would rather give SU-35's.

Its just how it would play out. Russians, Pakistanis, Indians and the Chinese all four want to connect through railroads and roads to create a bigger economic block at the end (around 2.8 BILLION people connected through one road, the largest populated economic block of the world from 2020, based on some research studies I've read through).

 

[MastanKhan]

Its the shining sword that sends the shiver down the enemy's spine not the daggers. PAF need a shining sword we have our daggers(jf.17,f16). I think we are doing good in regards to the project JF17 with Chinese and therefore stay focsed on it while keeping a very close eye on J20. Which are the platforms that PAF can acquire which will really make Indians nervous and shake their confidence. I don't think Indians are worried about J10C in PAF inventory but if the choice is SU35 or EF2000. I prefer EF2000 because it does diversify our capabilities especially regarding the electronic and weapons systems. Indians will have to counter and develop counter strategies against 3 different types of technology systems which is bit complicated, J10C in this regards makes it easy for Indians.US will most certainly help Indian to counter SU35 and Indians knowledge of SU30s makes it a easy for Indians. Eurofighter however is completely different platform and US is not focused on developing counter strategies to counter EF or its not their primary objective compare to J10c and SU35. EF will make it very hard and put tremendous pressure on Indian AF. An example is MBDA Meteor in our inventory and possibility of having it on JF17. Going Russian and Chinese way shuts the door of western war proven weapon systems but if we bring EF in our air fleet then we can keep a door open in acquiring western weapon systems of future and also a chance to make JF17 more deadly.
Just a humble opinion.

Hi,

Thank you---you explained it in two words---that I have a miserable time explaining in 10 years----SHINING SWORD-----.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Ab is "baby" ke siwa kuch kabool nahi......

Now reluctantly we will haveto go for J-31 fighter jet sooner then planned

Now the plane was on runway track since 2014 , should be ready now its 2016

Ready or not here it comes

Is this plane beautiful or what ?

 

[omega supremme]

How many more years You or Us or PAF need to bring numbers of F16 on required level,
come on man,,,

Well we don't to have many platforms or afford to have like indians so they will try if they can to have F-16 in the numbers they wished for