Its Official: JXX is going to test fly in the next few days

[Speeder 2]

No one said RAM wasn't based on material science, my problem is that you label countries that are high on material science as "superior" and at the same time dissmiss countries that are ranked lower on material science

Correct that ranking matters, which is bang on in theory.

I see you finally learned something, in light of my shining examples of course.

That's what all those rankings for.

That's why Putin is ranked as PM, you not.

As a consequence of that, under normal circunstances, and mostly likely that Putin is more authoritive than you, unless one day you somehow hit a "jackpot", or unless you rank considerablely higher than you are now being something like Deputy PM of Russia, in which case probably , sometimes you might have a better odds beating Putin (even though statistically you'll lose to him by a big margin); thus unless in the first scenario (hitting a jackpot), you would loss to Putin in most cases statistically speaking.

Got it?

Now use China replace Putin; and use Russia replace deputy PM or a lesser rank , setting the stage as General Materials Science.

----explain Israel, how does Israel come up with some of the best technologies?

"some of the best", huh? why you dare not say the best?? becuase Isreal ranks in top 3 in materials science? LOL


That is because of US's massive millitary asistance and large economic aids to Israel mainly; with a tiny part due to Israel's "hit a jackpot" factor (a normal "bingo" in fact) .

Without the US, Israel? lol, Iswho?

You have poor reading comprehension, i used Kopustin-Yar to demonstate that Russia doesn't always rely on civilian firms which usually patent their finds for marketing and profit, thus their work is know by everyone---and don't say China also has these firms because everyone know that already. My point is that established military firms usually create superior products compared to most civilian firms. Moreover, material science can mean anything from recycable toothbrushes to the soles in your shoes, so don't brag.

again and again, mind you again that russia is not the only one here, as all other major countries act like this, tell me ONE exception where a top military tech is used by a civilian industry ( of any country) and could be purchased in consumer market freely??

What's your point?

Thanks for pointing out the obvious--captain obvious

You're very welcome, soilder, if that could make you wiser, by all means... -- but don't let me do it again as my patience and time here are limited.

but i used Japan as an example, let me repeat myself since you couldn't understand the first time around. Japan is ranked 3rd in material science, the UK is ranked 9th, so can Japan create superior jet engines compared to the UK?

I repeat: #3 is almost always better than #9 statisticaly; that's why it's called 3 , not 9.

However, sometimes, when hitting a jackpot, even any dog could has its day, let along #9. That's not important; what's important, howevr, is the point that no every dog can hit jackpot every day.

So in the long run, #3 has still better odds than #9, ok?




Now let me tell you the long version of why:

Your engine example on Japan is an extreme case: no country can afford to stop top level millitary engine research for more than 10 years. When being completely cut off from the "best practice" of the market, almost no country could sustain its engine development along while maintaining at the top standard.

The best example for that is Germany of WWI and WWII. Germans in WWI got one of the best world class aero engine techs; but it had been CUT off from millitary reseach after losing WWI; in a short space of 10 years, German aero engines went from the top class to the most lousy one among its peer powers, which has been reflectly fully for the whole course of WWII , despite of its dire catch-up efforts.

Japan is almost the same story - it has been cut off from top millitary engine research after WWII ( up to now, at least publicly), limited by its constitutions set up by the US, while the Brits have always maintained its own engine research throughout the course, particularly in combination with massive direct US imput due to " THE special relationship " branding of the two.


China's current bottleneck, namrly slow engine development, is almost the similar story again: despite of being a winner of WWII, China became communist and had soon been boycotted by both the US and int'l community (in both millitary and civilian techs); after split with Soviet in 60s, China was completely isolated until earlier 1980s, which made its millitary engine tech generations behind the world standard. The new US hi-tech embargo placed after 1989 is still ongoing today.

China and mainland chinese even are not allowed to take a look at high tech a world-class western engine roadshow, let alone being allowed to purchase them and study them, hence there is no communication whatsoever btw PLA researchers and the rest of the world ( except some Russian assistance, but to a limited extent, as Russia itself also lacks behind the West in engine tech; further, Russians will not disclose their best to the Chinese either).

This is the reason why China's engine tech is behind - don't raise another "example" on this point, because engines are an special case; it doesn't serve you well in your rebuttal case arguing against China's materials science.

Clear?

Don't pick and choose what suits you best, by your logic me and everyone else can dissmiss China as not being ranked 2nd and claim it's all all lie just like you just did.

What "pick and choose "?

I quoted what I said and I mean what I say!

My grandfather spend most of his life in the KGB and an old family friend was in the FSB, not to mention i knew people in the Russian military everyone from pilots to tankers so i know a thing or two but how does this relate to anything? And how am i using uducated guesses when i say Russia has esstablished military institutions? That's not a guess but rather reality.

what, your grandpa?

so no "area 51 " this time?

I would appreciate your courage if you could copy above statement and send it to KGB HQ with your personal mailing address.

No one is arguing RAM tech is not cutting edge, and i fail to see what you're trying to prove, Russia has RAM and very good RAM, parts of the SU-35 even utilizes RAM and if Russia can build cutting edge radars, engines and other technologies than why would Russia have problems with RAM?

No one is dismissing Russia's ram tech entirely cuz that would be ignorant. I was saying statisticaly speaking, China would most likely edge ahead over Russia on that one.

Don't put words in my mouth, although Russia has RAM and other technologies Russia doesn't reveal the science behind it, thus the technology doesn't get to scientific journals. Got it?

Got what? Got my foot !

Again ? what's wrong with you? China does that then? or US does that ?

tell me on which civilian tech in the market you can find applications of top ram tech used by China (or by USA's F-22) ready 4 purchase ?

Gun powder was discovered accidentally correct? Was the first rocket that reached outerspace accidental? Was the first satelite accidental? Was the first space station accidental? Was a Mars probe accidental? And don't compare something as simple as gunpower to space exploration.

After consulting with those Chinese gunpowder inventors via telepathic communication, I regret to inform you that gun powder was not discovered by accident. So your further analogies from there are invalid. Sorry!

Statistics mean nothing,

Man, do you go to college?

how are countries such as France, Germany and the UK so advanced? Hell the UK is barely ahead on India on the material science ranking and their scientific discoveries and technologies are amazing, the same thing goes for Israel, so i think your argument is mute.

Learn what is called stastistics and what it's used for, then you 'll know.


One thing:

I 'll get my PhD degree in Finance this year. Statistically speaking, as an imminent PhDer tup, I can beat any finance undergraduate hands down and with my eyes closed in most finance-related topics.

But, but, even some piece of sh*t finance understangrad or high schooler, somehow, might hit a jackpot by finding that he is more knowldgeable than I am in some very niche financial topics from some dark corners.


BUT STILL, in gerneal I'll beat him MOST of other times. This is decided by my "Finance or my materials science ranking" and "statistics". That's the WHOLE point !

Say, isn't that beautiful?

Let me repeat myself. Since China is well ahead of countries such as Israel, France, German, and the UK in material science shouldn't Chinese technology be way ahead of the said countries? According to you they should be, unfortunately things arn't black and white.


The official range of the early ZHUK was 148km and it's an official quote. The 200km range was quoted by the companies general director. As for the radar being operational it was installed on a RAF Mig-29 and it's installed on a fleet of Mig-35's although they are not operational in the sence that they serve under the RAF, and full scale production of the radar has already begun earlier this year, so it's likely that the radar is equiped on operational fighters.

Again, stop picking and choosing what sources suit you best, the link i provided was with someone that actually worked on Russia's RAM technology. By your standards i can dissmiss 80% of the Chinese claims because most are not official.

so most of above are your repeated claims which I have rebuttaled in my previous post.

See ya!

 

[gambit]

tell me on which civilian tech in the market you can find applications of top ram tech used by China (or by USA's F-22) ready 4 purchase ?

Radar absorbers technology have been around for decades -- the radome. It is the formula for a specific application and its usage that are secrets. The formula's secrecy is like the Coca-Cola versus Pepsi versus Dr. Pepper rivalry. Absorbers are essentially pass through material be it in the usage of radomes worldwide, or on the surface of an aircraft.

 

[gambit]

After consulting with those Chinese gunpowder inventors via telepathic communication, I regret to inform you that gun powder was not discovered by accident. So your further analogies from there are invalid. Sorry!

Still mired in superstitions? What next? Tea leaves? Animal entrails? Cracked bones? Gunpowder as we know and called it, came after the original formulation, which was for medicinal purposes -- immortality. The mixture has a property -- combustibility. The rate of combustibility and its exploitation give us 'gunpowder' as we know and call it today. So yes...The original mixture was very much a discovery and a peripheral one from the original intent -- immortality. The mixture's usage, based upon the exploitation of its property -- combustibility -- is the process, which implied foresight, that gave us fireworks and related inventions.

 

[Speeder 2]

Still mired in superstitions? What next? Tea leaves? Animal entrails? Cracked bones? Gunpowder as we know and called it, came after the original formulation, which was for medicinal purposes -- immortality. The mixture has a property -- combustibility. The rate of combustibility and its exploitation give us 'gunpowder' as we know and call it today. So yes...The original mixture was very much a discovery and a peripheral one from the original intent -- immortality. The mixture's usage, based upon the exploitation of its property -- combustibility -- is the process, which implied foresight, that gave us fireworks and related inventions.

Superstitions? Nein! Gunpowder is the cumulative knowledge/knowhow & expericences for over millenium in materials science...

Immortality is only a trival by-product. You should try it sometimes btw, it's cool!

 

[no_name]

^^ he was talking about you consulting with the ancestors

 

[Sanchez]

Speeder, one should not argue with idiots or fanatics. Just give it up to professional fighters.

 

[Speeder 2]

^^ he was talking about you consulting with the ancestors

^^ never heard about parallel universe?

 

[gambit]

Still mired in superstitions? What next? Tea leaves? Animal entrails? Cracked bones? Gunpowder as we know and called it, came after the original formulation, which was for medicinal purposes -- immortality. The mixture has a property -- combustibility. The rate of combustibility and its exploitation give us 'gunpowder' as we know and call it today. So yes...The original mixture was very much a discovery and a peripheral one from the original intent -- immortality. The mixture's usage, based upon the exploitation of its property -- combustibility -- is the process, which implied foresight, that gave us fireworks and related inventions.

Superstitions? Nein! Gunpowder is the cumulative knowledge/knowhow & expericences for over millenium in materials science...

Immortality is only a trival by-product. You should try it sometimes btw, it's cool!

^^ he was talking about you consulting with the ancestors

^^ never heard about parallel universe?

Looky here...You have been proven wrong about gunpowder being an invention. Stop being silly. An invention imply foresight, deliberation, methodical processes and everything associated with a goal. A discovery is generally accidental and often is peripheral to the inventive and methodical processes. A discovery seldom has a specific goal in mind. There is no legitimate intellectual comparison between the discovery of 'gunpowder' and the deliberate and methodical processes of space exploration.

 

[Speeder 2]

Looky here...You have been proven wrong about gunpowder being an invention. Stop being silly. An invention imply foresight, deliberation, methodical processes and everything associated with a goal. A discovery is generally accidental and often is peripheral to the inventive and methodical processes. A discovery seldom has a specific goal in mind. There is no legitimate intellectual comparison between the discovery of 'gunpowder' and the deliberate and methodical processes of space exploration.

then Speeder 2 must have invented gambit during his coffee break!

 

[Speeder 2]

Speeder, one should not argue with idiots or fanatics. Just give it up to professional fighters.

Consider it done.



@ ptldM3

So we call it off here, shall we?

 

[ptldM3]

Correct that ranking matters, which is bang on in theory.

I see you finally learned something, in light of my shining examples of course.

That's what all those rankings for.

Material science could be literally anything and as so a country ranked high on material science doesn't mean it will produce superior products to countries that are ranked lower on material science. An esstablished and well funded defence industry, backed with previous knowlede and supported by experienced persons will beat out countries higher on material science--again lets look at Israel, Israel is ranked 31st on material science, yet their technology is ahead of most other countries ranked in the top ten in material science.

"some of the best", huh? why you dare not say the best?? becuase Isreal ranks in top 3 in materials science? LOL

Saying someone is the best is subjective, there are a number of countries that are extreemly competitive in similar feilds, hence it would be difficult to say this country is better than that country (of course there are exceptions such as the F-22 for obvious reasons). Israeli UAV's, jammers, radars, tanks and everything else is considered world class even by Americans standards, i can honestly say that Israel makes some of the best systems in the world, and many military experts whether they are American, Russian or German will agree.

That is because of US's massive millitary asistance and large economic aids to Israel mainly; with a tiny part due to Israel's "hit a jackpot" factor (a normal "bingo" in fact) .

Without the US, Israel? lol, Iswho?

And Israeli ingenuity and engineering had nothing to do with it?

I repeat: #3 is almost always better than #9 statisticaly; that's why it's called 3 , not 9.

However, sometimes, when hitting a jackpot, even any dog could has its day, let along #9. That's not important; what's important, howevr, is the point that no every dog can hit jackpot every day.

So in the long run, #3 has still better odds than #9, ok?

The probability of hitting a jackpot repeatedly is astronomically low, almost impossible. Israel and the UK need to go to Las Vagas with the odds they have.

Now let me tell you the long version of why:

Your engine example on Japan is an extreme case: no country can afford to stop top level millitary engine research for more than 10 years. When being completely cut off from the "best practice" of the market, almost no country could sustain its engine development along while maintaining at the top standard.

The best example for that is Germany of WWI and WWII. Germans in WWI got one of the best world class aero engine techs; but it had been CUT off from millitary reseach after losing WWI; in a short space of 10 years, German aero engines went from the top class to the most lousy one among its peer powers, which has been reflectly fully for the whole course of WWII , despite of its dire catch-up efforts.

Japan is almost the same story - it has been cut off from top millitary engine research after WWII ( up to now, at least publicly), limited by its constitutions set up by the US, while the Brits have always maintained its own engine research throughout the course, particularly in combination with massive direct US imput due to " THE special relationship " branding of the two.


China's current bottleneck, namrly slow engine development, is almost the similar story again: despite of being a winner of WWII, China became communist and had soon been boycotted by both the US and int'l community (in both millitary and civilian techs); after split with Soviet in 60s, China was completely isolated until earlier 1980s, which made its millitary engine tech generations behind the world standard. The new US hi-tech embargo placed after 1989 is still ongoing today.

China and mainland chinese even are not allowed to take a look at high tech a world-class western engine roadshow, let alone being allowed to purchase them and study them, hence there is no communication whatsoever btw PLA researchers and the rest of the world ( except some Russian assistance, but to a limited extent, as Russia itself also lacks behind the West in engine tech; further, Russians will not disclose their best to the Chinese either).

This is the reason why China's engine tech is behind - don't raise another "example" on this point, because engines are an special case; it doesn't serve you well in your rebuttal case arguing against China's materials science.

Clear?

I'm aware that Japan was restricted to a defence force but i'm also aware that Japan still had a military industry after WWII, Mitsubishi aviation ring a bell? What about Japanese tanks such as the Type 90?

If you don't like Japan we can always use different examples....say China, China is ranked second in material science but what about technology such as jet engines? Mind you China has had decades of experience with jet engines whether it was a licenced copies or Indigenous, so why arn't Chinese jet engines superior to 9th ranked UK and their Rolls-Royce engines?

What "pick and choose "?

I quoted what I said and I mean what I say!

You dissmised my source because you felt the Netherlands was ranked too high, that is what's called picking and choosing what suits you best.

After consulting with those Chinese gunpowder inventors via telepathic communication, I regret to inform you that gun powder was not discovered by accident. So your further analogies from there are invalid. Sorry!

Discovery of Gunpowder

It is believed that the Chinese alchemists of the 9th Century, discovered gunpowder accidentally when an experiment for the search of elixir of life went haywire

One thing:

I 'll get my PhD degree in Finance this year. Statistically speaking, as an imminent PhDer tup, I can beat any finance undergraduate hands down and with my eyes closed in most finance-related topics.

But, but, even some piece of sh*t finance understangrad or high schooler, somehow, might hit a jackpot by finding that he is more knowldgeable than I am in some very niche financial topics from some dark corners.


BUT STILL, in gerneal I'll beat him MOST of other times. This is decided by my "Finance or my materials science ranking" and "statistics". That's the WHOLE point !

Say, isn't that beautiful?

I think i speak for everyone when i say, i dont care about your personal life.

so most of above are your repeated claims which I have rebuttaled in my previous post.

See ya!

How did you "rebutt" a source that i just posted? Also how do you rebutt the Fazotron deputy general director and general designer? He is a liar when he said the ZHUK went into serial production? Was general director Vyacheslav Tishchenko lying when he gave a quote for the range?

 

[ptldM3]

Consider it done.



@ ptldM3

So we call it off here, shall we?

I didn't see this until my last post, i'm basically done, our arguments are counter productive and i got things to do.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

Consider it done.



@ ptldM3

So we call it off here, shall we?

What someone "believes" may or may not be true. The core issue that is bothering many of our fellow PDFers is that:

(1) J-XX exists

(2) J-XX is set to fly 'soon'

(3) J-XX likely to surpass T-50, F-35 and possible F-22 (this is contentious)



Thus, their actions and remarks reflect their uneasiness to accept the 'possibility' any or all of the above may be true.

However, for PLA fans (and their beneficiaries) unless we can directly contribute our skills, our bantering is counter-productive (unless it is used as a stress relief).

 

[gambit]

What someone "believes" may or may not be true. The core issue that is bothering many of our fellow PDFers is that:

(1) J-XX exists

(2) J-XX is set to fly 'soon'

(3) J-XX likely to surpass T-50, F-35 and possible F-22 (this is contentious)



Thus, their actions and remarks reflect their uneasiness to accept the 'possibility' any or all of the above may be true.

However, for PLA fans (and their beneficiaries) unless we can directly contribute our skills, our bantering is counter-productive (unless it is used as a stress relief).

In other words, Chinese 'fanboys' should be as gullible as possible to whatever come out of China.

 

[Speeder 2]

In other words, Chinese 'fanboys' should be as gullible as possible to whatever come out of China.

That is so typical of your BS!

Anticipation, discussion, agree or disagree before news and after news are what any open forum is all about. It's perfectly legitimate and normal.


In fact, as the thread shows, it was mainly Speeder 2 alone, a pure millitary amateur, who has been engaging in this side of the argument, with other Chinese members reacting with a great contraint and a high degree of objectivity and humbleness.

On the contrary, it is you, a so called PRO in this field, has been engaging recklessly in cheap stunts and snides against any Chinese member when every tiny "opportunity" presents itself.

If the fact turns out not as I expected, so what? It'll be the fact against Speeder 2's expectation, not other Chinese members.

Yet if the fact turns out to be closer to my side of the arguement, I 'll see in which dark corner you gonna hide your humiliated ugly "old" face, a "PRO" one on top?