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Itching for another Coup?

Should Gen Kiyani instigate another coup?


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Neo:

When will the time be ripe for democracy?
Its not a matter of timing, we've had our chances and failed miserably.
Democracy won't hold long in a feudal society as she faild to empower the comon man.
If we want to give true democracy a chance we need to bring structural changes in our political system and eliminate feudalism.

What if the guy after Kiyani is another Zia?
Chances are slim that he'll be an Islamic hardliner, he's even recognised by US to be way too modest.
Check his profile.

Musharraf was in charge and wasn't able to do anything about the food crisis. What rabbit will he pull out of the hat now, when he couldn't even fix the problems to save his government in an election year?
I beg to differ, Musharraf actually almost brought Green Revolution but his attempts were again hampered due feudal system.
Wheat, maize, sugercane, potato and cotton production almost doubled during Musharraf's government.
 
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Z9-ec

Well said.

The whole world is reeling with this crisis and it is not Pakistan alone!

There has been a total mismanagement of crops in the world all because of the false idol - money!!
 
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Are you aware that there is rationing of rice in the US?

I saw it on TV and have no links!

Why blame Musharraf!

Here's the article you're referring to:

Two major US retailers ration rice amid global food crisis

by Virginie Montet
Thu Apr 24, 2008

WASHINGTON, (AFP) - Two major US bulk retailers are rationing the sale of large bags of rice to consumers amid a growing global food crisis marked by skyrocketing prices and heavy pressure on demand.

Sam's Club, a chain owned by retail giant Wal-Mart, announced Wednesday it was placing a limit of four 20-pound (nine-kilogram) bags per person for imported jasmine, basmati and long grain white rices as a "precautionary step."

"This temporary cap is intended to ensure there is plenty of rice for all our members," said Sam's Club, which has 600 stores across the United States, adding that the measure did not apply to smaller bags of rice.

The move follows similar steps taken by its main rival, Costco, which has also limited the sale of rice in its stores.

Both companies insist that they have plenty of rice but say the steps were necessary to ensure there was enough for all of their clients.

The measure appears aimed at preventing over-stocking among customers concerned by the surging prices of commodities worldwide.

Small restaurants and businesses fill their freezers and pantries with products from big-box retailers such as Sam's Club and Costco.

"There is no rice shortage in the US," said David Coia, a spokesman for the industry's USA Rice Federation.

"What happened is because of perception of problems in the world market, a few people try to buy more rice than they usually do, and these two companies have decided they want all their customers to be able to purchase rice."

"What happened was one person bought a three-month supply instead of a two-week supply that they normally buy," Coia told AFP.

He predicted that pressure on the price of rice would ease by the end of next year, noting that more and more fields are being used to grow rice.

US rice production provides 88 percent of the domestic consumption while imports from countries such as Thailand and Vietnam make up the rest.

The rationing steps came as the price of rice has surged worldwide due to the rising costs of energy and fertilizers, droughts in some rice producing countries and higher demand.

Some countries have taken drastic steps such as limiting or suspending rice exports to ensure they meet domestic demand.

The price of certain types of rice rose by 50 percent in recent months, causing tension in the poorest parts of the world.

The high price of rice sparked violent protests in Haiti earlier this month, forcing the government to issue an order to lower prices. In the Philippines, the army distributed rice in impoverished neighborhoods to prevent tension.

The World Bank warned this month that the higher food prices could push 100 million people in poorer developing countries further into poverty.

Two major US retailers ration rice amid global food crisis - Yahoo! News
 
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Brigadier, Agnostic

Sir, I beg to differ.

Why have you forgotten the fact that during President Musharraf's tenure as President we saw record development in infrastucture, investment and other aspects of way of life.

Another fact is, the food crisis began during the time of the elections and we all know who benefited from all this. Before March 9 07, everything was going as planned but all of a sudden everything went wrong.

By the way, there is a global food shortage currently and inflation all over the world.

Throughout his 8 years in office he has served Pakistan well. I will support him even if he uses 58-2(b) and dismiss the current parliament. The incumbent gov, instead of confronting the real issues the economy is facing today they are visiting foreign countries to discuss local politics in huge mansions and 7-star hotels.

Agreed on all accounts! :tup:
 
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Neo, z9-ec:

Please don't take my arguments as criticism of Musharraf's entire tenure. I have supported everything positive he did and he did a lot.

My argument only relates to the possibility of Musharraf or Kiyani being able to do anything to fix the current problems much faster than the coalition can. That he brought about huge improvements in agriculture is true, but that is not what I am criticizing. I am pointing out that despite several months of combating the food crisis (deploying rangers etc.) he was unable to control it - so the solution here isn't a coup.

On the issue of Feudalism, Musharraf wasn't able to end it either. Why do you think he would do it this time around?

I am not saying that Kiyani is another Zia - I am saying that if this proces of coups keeps up then we might end up with an another Zia (not Kiyani) who would destroy the country.
 
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Neo, z9-ec:

Please don't take my arguments as criticism of Musharraf's entire tenure. I have supported everything positive he did and he did a lot.

My argument only relates to the possibility of Musharraf or Kiyani being able to do anything to fix the current problems much faster than the coalition can. That he brought about huge improvements in agriculture is true, but that is not what I am criticizing. I am pointing out that despite several months of combating the food crisis (deploying rangers etc.) he was unable to control it - so the solution here isn't a coup.

On the issue of Feudalism, Musharraf wasn't able to end it either. Why do you think he would do it this time around?

I am not saying that Kiyani is another Zia - I am saying that if this proces of coups keeps up then we might end up with an another Zia (not Kiyani) who would destroy the country.

I believe they will be able to rectify certain fatal mistakes of the incumbent government. All economists agree, rapid action is required to curtail the economic effects of the global oil prices and food shortages that we face today.

Gov of the day, is instead focusing on one issue rather than confronting the real issues this not only effects the economy but also the confidence of the foreign investors. Inaction today will be disastrous.
 
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Gov of the day, is instead focusing on one issue rather than confronting the real issues this not only effects the economy but also the confidence of the foreign investors. Inaction today will be disastrous.

I completely agree. The volatility in the country is in very large part due to the confusion caused over the deadlock over the judiciary restoration issue. Ishaq Dar hasn't been able to implement any policies to bring about quick relief (though he claimed today that wheat is now freely available but at a higher price) and the prices may now perhaps only be controlled and lowered through government subsidies ala India.

But this is how democracy works. The issue isn't feudalism right now, its a matter of getting beyond ideological differences and finding the right policy mix to alleviate the problems.
 
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Neo, z9-ec:

Please don't take my arguments as criticism of Musharraf's entire tenure. I have supported everything positive he did and he did a lot.

My argument only relates to the possibility of Musharraf or Kiyani being able to do anything to fix the current problems much faster than the coalition can. That he brought about huge improvements in agriculture is true, but that is not what I am criticizing. I am pointing out that despite several months of combating the food crisis (deploying rangers etc.) he was unable to control it - so the solution here isn't a coup.

On the issue of Feudalism, Musharraf wasn't able to end it either. Why do you think he would do it this time around?

I am not saying that Kiyani is another Zia - I am saying that if this proces of coups keeps up then we might end up with an another Zia (not Kiyani) who would destroy the country.

Point taken mate, my reaction may have come hard but I know where you're coming from.

First of all I'm convinced PPP and PML-N would have lost big times if Benazir was still alive. PPP cashed in her loss and got millions sympathy votes from our jahill voters. Musharraf would have finished the job and avert another crisis by launching second wave of reforms, something Kiyani or new government are incapable of.Despite having a military tag Musharraf succeeded into attracting billions in FDI, a democratic tag would have atleast trippled the amount within few years under his comand and thats why I'm still supporting Musharraf.

There's still hope for new government if they can succeed in solving five major issues by the end of August:

1- Reconciliation with Musharraf
2- Curb on inflation and bringing it down to 7-8%
3- Providing adhoc solution for power crisis
4- Solving inter-provincial issues on water distribution
5- Cease Fire with militants to minimise terrorist attacks.

First point needs no elaboration, removal of Musharraf isn't something the people want, its a matter of personal issues between politicians in power.

Inflation can be brought down on food items by releasing strategic stocks (atleast 25%) to meet immidiate demand. Rationing on some food items is another option whereas import of luxury food items should be suspended or restricted to absolute milimum from countrie we've FTA with. Import bill on luxurious food items stands at $1.5 billion!!!
Enhancing imports of cheaper farm products from India to five major cities (Karachi, Lahore, Faisalabad, Multan and Rawalpindi) would allow Punjab and Sindh to sell more expansive homegrown products to rest of the countries and bring down imflation. The loss should be subsidised by GoP in form of one time emergency relief financial package to agro SME.

Import of power from Tajikistan and Iran will take another 6-8 months before it can be conected to national grid. Adhoc solution is already there: Sugar Mills have the capacity to generate 2200 MW immidiately reducing power shortage to merely 1000MW and they can easily be connected to the national grid.
A deal should be brokered to purchase power from sugar mills against subsidised fixed fare instead of global price. ADB can provide loans to subsidise the emergency package.

A dicision on water distribution should be centralised or forced upon provinces, we've been quarelling for 60 years and still there's no solution. A rational calculation on distribution is needed, more water to area's with highest yields and again subsidies for arid area's due decline in production caused by water shortage.

A 6-12 month peace deal with the militants to allow further talks. Inorder to build mutual confidence foreign raids should come to an end.
 
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Further more, Current coalition of NS and Z is more focused on destablizing the country. We should rather focus on building an investor friendly environment.

President Musharraf has given unconditional support to them on all issues yet we see NS's continued confrontational mode. Even the -2 judg theory. This is not the way a country progresses. Let aside, the aspects of this coalition continuing in the future if they can't agree on one single issue.
 
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Agnostic Muslim, did you know that military rule has always been popular in Pakistan when ever it comes in? Maybe it is worth remembering that military men are not the only ones capable of becoming 'dictators', take Nawaz Sharif and Z.A. Bhutto if I may say so. Are you so sure democracy would have been so much better under them?
Is it fair to blame those generals who did what they thought was best for the country at that time and undoubtably contributed much to this nation?
 
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My ideal coup is not to empower Musharraf or remove this coalition (which might end in 3 days), but to unpause an entire government.

"Judicial crisis". So sick of that word. Here the entire country is on the brink of several disasters and this government can't figure out whether or not to restore the judges.

Look I'll tell you what. This is the SAME government as Musharraf's, plus PML-N. Remember the NRO? That was an ordinance which never really got to fly, but still noticed that Zardari got off on every charge anyway? If they can't stamp a not guilty by the constitution, they just stamp a not guilty by the judiciary.

To bring in the judges is to agree that ultimately they'd kick off Musharraf. They won't do that. Three countries played guarantor of the NRO. The US, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. If PPP backs off, their word and goes after Musharraf there would be a severe backlash from these three nations. They've already started to show their discontent with the slightest anti-Mush moves.

And why go through the hassle, Mr. Zardari asks. Benazir's dead, she won't let him near politics before, now he's top banana. He gets her entire wealth, her power and Musharraf washes off his sins. Why should he be listening to Nawaz?

But Nawaz is getting popular. The public wanted Musharraf to go and bring in the judges, or so he has managed to create the perception. He holds key positions in Punjab. He'll keep demanding things Zardari can't provide.

Today's epic meeting, went in a deadlock. No further meetings are planned for 12th may.

Will it matter if PML-N leaves? PPP and Mush have bigger plans. Mush and Shujaat just went through an ugly divorce. Mush asked Shujaat to resign as party president and appoint Mr. Chattha. Chatta served with the PPP too and has good relations. Mush is going to try and merge this Zardari led PPP and Chattha led PML-Q together. ANP really has no issues with the President and doesn't care about the judicial nonsense. As long they feel safe, they'll continue.

Today we saw some interesting Photo Ops of Altaf Hussain and Rehman malik. Rehman Malik is the architect of the entire NRO scheme.

The democratic process Agnostic you're talking about will play out like this.

Musharraf
PPP - Zardari
PMLQ - Chattha
MQM
ANP

vs

PMLN - Nawaz
PMLQ - Shujaat
PPP - Led by some of the original Benazir era leadership

Lots of name changes would ensue, I'm guessing.

And tell you what. The whole thing will come down like a house of cards. Since PML-N will continue to dominate punjab, the heart and soul of Pakistan governance, the bread and butter, the 60% population.

The Federal, the remaining provinces would belong to the unholy alliance. Nawaz would be trumped up as an honest man fighting against corrupt politicians, lots of rioting, lots of strikes. Emergencies, rupee hitting the 100:1 parity.

Soooooo

A coup is necessary. If there's a democratic process you're waiting to happen, then that's all you're going to get. A coup that cleanses of these individuals. A coup that makes swift arrests without discrimination and puts the fear of God within the remaining few.

PPP and PML (all factions) should be BARRED from Pakistani politics. IFF a short lived coup did that, it might give us a bumpy rest of the 2008, but 2009 onwards we'd have some sense of direction.
 
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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

No coups! never ever again! It will set Pakistan back by about 10 years if there is another coup. We cannot take international sanctions at this point. Our military strength will be reduced to the 1990s level and the economic situation of 1999 will look like a cakewalk.
 
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But Nawaz is getting popular. The public wanted Musharraf to go and bring in the judges, or so he has managed to create the perception. He holds key positions in Punjab. He'll keep demanding things Zardari can't provide.

Deception created by the media to accommodate one individual with unholy alliance with NS, it is far from the bitter reality NS will face in days to come.

The other day even media anchors admitted that the people are getting frustrated with the "jud crisis"


Musharraf
PPP - Zardari
PMLQ - Chattha
MQM
ANP

vs

PMLN - Nawaz
PMLQ - Shujaat
PPP - Led by some of the original Benazir era leadership

Hopefully sanity will prevail and reconciliation will be pursued by all of them.

And tell you what. The whole thing will come down like a house of cards. Since PML-N will continue to dominate punjab, the heart and soul of Pakistan governance, the bread and butter, the 60% population.

The Federal, the remaining provinces would belong to the unholy alliance. Nawaz would be trumped up as an honest man fighting against corrupt politicians, lots of rioting, lots of strikes. Emergencies, rupee hitting the 100:1 parity.......................


Words cannot describe what I felt reading that. As if Punjab is Pakistan??

I did not expect this from such a senior member.
 
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The problem with all Pakistani military dictators is that they try to become into pseudo democrats who essentially let the cycle of idiocy continue. If a general intends to launch a coup, then he shouldn't give a toss about the constitution, parliament, judiciary, etc, at all - especially if one believes those departments are corrupt or inadequate!

If you are a general and take over...then you should be a real authoritarian who gets rid of the garbage; become a revolutionary and turn the entire 'system' upside down! Get it over with once and for all...use a technocratic supreme cabinet; run the state as a corporation; and resolve your hold until the state is ready for something different from your rule - i.e. the STATE, not the people. If you see the state benefiting from democracy, then switch to democracy...if the state prevails, the masses prevail. IF there a doubts, then screw the rest and keep working.
 
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