Itching for another Coup?

[asaad-ul-islam]

the military cannot withstand another coup, their image has been ruined to such a degree where they have been made enemies of the state (courtesy of GEO TV).

I've always been all up for a charismatic leader who will rule this land with an iron fist. He not only strikes fear into the hearts of corrupt people, but also encourages people to work for the common dream that we share, having a great and powerful nation.

I remember watching something on China which gave me a good look into what everyone there is thinking, you know with the "superpower" phenomenon and all. A few undergraduate students were job searching and were interviewed.

They were asked about income as an important factor and replied, "money is not a problem, I'm willing to work for free. Our nation is rising to greatness and we want to work for our nation."

Hearing this, you could already imagine what was going through my mind. many pakistani people are just too narrow-minded, selfish, corrupt, and more adjectives I don't have time to describe. As you all know, ALL of these people end up as politicians and suck the life and wealth out of this nation.

let everyone get a taste of their own medicine. if I was Musharraf, right now I'd be laughingdevil:, suckerz!!) and chilling in some five star hotel. the thing with musharraf is that he doesn't take these things to heart, just like the people close to him described.

 

[fatman17]

I hate to agree on this but Asim is right, if situation gets worse we'll once again come under another martial law to avoid civil war.

The coalition is not strong enough to remove Musharraf, nor capable to avoid monetary crisis, we're headed towards a 90's like situation when Nawaz brought us to the brink of bankcruptcy.

The big Q is who'll be the next General, Kiyani or good ole Mushy.

actually what has brought about this crisis is the non-cooperation of the beraucratic establishment with the ministers appointed. the politicians are finding it difficult to find "loyal" brown-sahibs to do their work for them. the military-beraucratic complex is very strong and they will not let things go the way of the politicians and then there are the americans in the background wanting to make sure that the govt. toes their line. i think musharraf is enjoying this!

 

[batmannow]

WHAT ever it was.. but time is runing out for both politicians and berucracy? averge pakistani citizen cant find any cure in either s hands, i guss again, only choice left is pak army but , iam not sure about GEN.KIYANI, can he deliver what this poor nation needs or he will become another PA genrl.... backed by USA ! to defend its intersts in the region.

one point is crystal clear, which is that politics and pakistan.......two different, birds and cant live togather, thats it wouldbe better to call army once again and a BANGLADESH like system shouldbe followed, as soon as possible, to save!!!
pakistan & pakistanis from the JAWS OF HUNGER... and economic WASHOUT.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If the Army had not to be deployed in FATA, would that money not help to ameriolate the current food crisis in Pakistan?

No that money would not be put into the food crisis because the expenses in FATA are being reimbursed by the US government.

You cannot cherry pick one instance and set of events and draw "blame religion conclusions" from it.

I could argue that the Taliban are the result of the territorial dispute and lack of acceptance from the Indians of the State of Pakistan in 1947.

The very fact that religion is the core issue, democracy will remain an illusion! Democracy means equality!!

As I pointed out to you on another thread, the "secular" US constitution did nothing to prevent the practice of slavery and segregation for centuries. It is not "secularism" that provides equality, it is a continuous and fair democratic process, regardless of whether it is theocratic or secular, that allows for societies and peoples to evolve.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

A coup is necessary. If there's a democratic process you're waiting to happen, then that's all you're going to get. A coup that cleanses of these individuals. A coup that makes swift arrests without discrimination and puts the fear of God within the remaining few.

PPP and PML (all factions) should be BARRED from Pakistani politics. IFF a short lived coup did that, it might give us a bumpy rest of the 2008, but 2009 onwards we'd have some sense of direction.

Everything you described is part of democracy, and it is an extremely unpleasant and necessary part of democracy.

The time for implementing the solutions you suggested was back in 1999 - Musharraf ended up being a "benevolent dictator", and did not "cure" the problem. Today, given the extremely high chance of a Democrat (most likely Obama) being elected POTUS, and the high degree of aversion amongst the US Democrats to Musharraf, any coup will end up making us look like Myanmar.

Sanctions will follow, and cooperation in Afghanistan will still be demanded. Extremism will have a field day, and public anger at the military will boil over.

Investment will dry up, and your 100 rupee to 1 dollar scenario will actually look preferable.

The world has moved on, Musharraf had his chance. Its time to fix Pakistan the hard way, and the right way.

 

[fatman17]

the army will not get involved in the "games". they have been assured by all and sundry that whatever happens their corporate interests r being guaranteed. hence no involvement.

 

[Awesome]

This is still the same old government.

That's why my question asks should "GEN KIYANI" instigate another coup?

The beauty of a coup would be when someone did it. and immediately stepped down. I got news for you, the day there is true democracy in Pakistan, America will attack us for it. Today we are an American colony, the government is sham, represents no one but the US, Saudi and UAE.

By the Americans, for the Saudis and of the Emiratis!
-- Democratic Government of Pakistan.

 

[Awesome]

Working in a financial institution of Pakistan in the UAE, I've been privy to the amount of millions of dirhams being pumped into the UAE economy by some Pakistani big shots (can't take names or their titles, but understand it willya).

The UAE economy is giving them 50% returns in a few months! You buy a property here today, in one year it would've doubled in price! They've started to milk Pakistan dry!

 

[Energon]

If you are a general and take over...then you should be a real authoritarian who gets rid of the garbage; become a revolutionary and turn the entire 'system' upside down! Get it over with once and for all...use a technocratic supreme cabinet; run the state as a corporation; and resolve your hold until the state is ready for something different from your rule - i.e. the STATE, not the people. If you see the state benefiting from democracy, then switch to democracy...if the state prevails, the masses prevail. IF there a doubts, then screw the rest and keep working.

I don't know of a single example in modern history where a model of this sort has been self sustaining or at least achieved long term stability in addition to economic prosperity for a state equitable to Pakistan in its profile (i.e. not referring to say oil rich Arab states with long standing monarchies). My point is that the scenario you've mentioned here has in the past done nothing more than provide short term inspiration for a long term problem, albeit alternative to the current one in question.

Kudos to AgnosticMuslim for raising critical points:

When will the time be ripe for democracy?

What if the guy after Kiyani is another Zia?

Musharraf was in charge and wasn't able to do anything about the food crisis. What rabbit will he pull out of the hat now, when he couldn't even fix the problems to save his government in an election year?

Although I have a highly prevailing disposition to think along pro-democratic lines(probably on account of my life experiences and background), I lately find myself unable to quickly commit to this "default setting", simply because I wonder if democracy is truly a feasible endeavor for all peoples. I think I need to do a lot more reading and investigating before I can begin to make a better headway into this conundrum

Having said that, if there is a strong democratic spirit within a significant portion of the Pakistani populace, or at least the influential portion; then perhaps there ought to be creative measures taken now, during the period of transient democracy that would serve as a deterrent to the return of military autocratic rule. I can't think of a perfect solution off the top of my head right now, but perhaps someone should look into making the chief of the military staff into a less politically influential position occupied either by a Naval Admiral or an Air Force general instead so that there can be a sort of check/balance system between the armed forces which is otherwise heavily dominated by the PA.

 

[fatman17]

now, but perhaps someone should look into making the chief of the military staff into a less politically influential position occupied either by a Naval Admiral or an Air Force general instead so that there can be a sort of check/balance system between the armed forces which is otherwise heavily dominated by the PA.

lets for one second agree with your proposal of making a admiral of air marshal head of the military. what makes u think they wont get politicised!

 

[fatman17]

what is the current situation:

PPP/MQM/ANP/JUI-F/26 BREAKAWAY MNAS OF PML-Q ON ONE SIDE backed by the president, USA and the tacit approval of the army compared to PML-N, APDM, lawyers and supported by the civic society (as claimed by the lawyers)

as u can see the common people are not mentioned in this equation and never will.

who will win?

 

[vish]

In my opinion, Pakistan’s two major ills, which are also the source of most of its problems, are a lack of independent judiciary and non-existent of the sanctity of the constitution. Pakistan’s biggest loss was Jinnah’s untimely death. India benefited from Nehru’s governments in the manner that the judiciary and the constitution were always deemed supreme, a tradition, which thankfully, has and will continue in the future.

For example, if Maj Gen Mohammad Akbar Khan (the man behind the first coup attempt; I got this from a post in this forum) would have been prosecuted (not executed) within the framework of the law, history, in all likelihood, would have been different today. Popular public opinion should not in any way be an excuse for treason. Further, this one bad example has created an army that began to see itself as the state; it could break any law and could get away with it. What resulted was a line of military dictators, who with the support of short-sighted politicians, have created a condition wherein there is absolutely no regard for the constitution.

The only way out, as I see it, would entail three parallel measures. First, the necessity of an independent judiciary, which is supreme, even over the Army and the political elite, cannot be ruled out. Second, there should be a consensus among the political actors (Army, elected political parties, independent judiciary, President) on the constitution and its implementation. Third, and perhaps the most essential and difficult, limiting the role of the Army in the judiciary, bureaucracy, and politics. The third step can only be taken by the Army’s top brass; however, they might want to ensure that their economic clout not be curtailed. An independent and strong media would help too. What Pakistan needs to do is establish the law of the land in areas where the “government” still holds considerable sway, for example, Punjab, Sindh, etc. Only then the unstability in "other" regions can be contained.

Military dictatorships do not benefit the nation in long run. They ensure that the nation is left lacking in capable institutions. The stability bought by these military dictatorships is nothing but a farce. In simpler words “Penny wise, pound foolish.”

Democracy will yield some corrupt leaders in power. If you think Pakistan is blessed with too many of them, wait till you see India, ours are no less. However, democracy, with an independent judiciary, brings in checks and balances, and empowers an ordinary citizen to take the government to court.

Honestly, you can guess from my posts that I’m pretty much pro-democracy. It’s not like I always was, I used to despise democracy once upon a long time ago. But the failure of non-democratic governments in various parts of the globe, including Pakistan, and the independence of the judiciary in my country, which is possible only in a multi-party democracy, has convinced me otherwise. And what perplexes me the most is that if educated and relatively enlightened Pakistanis espouse dictatorship (and there are plenty of those in this forum), what should be expected from your not-so-well-enlightened countrymen?

These are my opinions, and I’m no expert. Please do criticise me and correct me if I’m naïve.

 

[fatman17]

good post vish - requires a bit of thinking indeed!

i am clear on one point - the military has to play its constitutional role and this was the main reason i resigned my commission from the PA during the dark days of Gen. Zia. having said that the politicians are (in my opinion) dictators also. they will circumvent the constitution at every opportunity. the independence of the judiciary - what do we mean by that - the political leaders want judges who will toe their line, same for anyone else. the common man gets left out. what is CJ iftikhar ch doing now. it is a personal vendetta for him - not the independence of judiciary. what did we get from him when he was serving CJ - suo moto notices - no dispensation of justice.
the reason a lot of learned pakistanis on this forum support the military - because they see a well organised institution, as compared to the chaos we r seeing today from the politicians.

 

[niaz]

I certainly dont prefer the military, however I can rationalize why coups have occurred in the past. IMO democracy good or bad should be given a chance.

It is a real pity that we see the same names or the same names with different faces, no matter under whom and when the elections are held. One hopes that people will learn from the mistakes and after 5 years, change the gov't if found wanting. If they dont, then they deserve what they get. Nevertheless, it must be their own choice and not forced upon them thru brute force.

Regret to say that despite whatever Islamists or Khilafat lovers believe;while
one can exploit religion as a centrifugal force such as happened in Iraq and Lebenon or in Yugoslavia; religion is no longer a binding force. There are too many other factors that get involved when it comes to creating a nation. Disagreement over Kalabagh Dam; even though everyone is aware of the acute shortage of water, and continuous sabotage of gas pipelines by Baluch Nationalists indicate a very dangerous underlying trend. External forces and vested interests exploit this situation and eat the fabric of the society from within. IMO Musharraf is preferable to Nawaz Sharif and Zardari for this reason only.

However, once elections have taken place and people have given their verdict, democratic process must be allowed to continue. It is a shame that Nawaz Sharif is proving to be a very short sighted leader. I can't see why he couldnt remain in the gov't and continue to achieve his end thru a constitutional amendment. Politics is never entirely black or white. It is not a case of arithmetic, where there is only one answer. The objective should be independent Judiciary not necessarily re-instatement of Mr Iftikhar Chaudhry.

But, as I have noted above, vested interests have prevailed. Sincerely hope that Pakistani leaders show Statesmanship and rise above personal vendetta at the expense of the nation.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Coups are not the way a country should progress.

If one thinks India has had great govts, one would be wrong.

There have been govts in India which were pathetic by all standards.

Once a Tigers tastes human blood, it becomes a Maneater!

And then there is no way of stopping the Tiger, except to shoot it!