Italy delivering surplus self-propelled howitzers to Pakistan Army

[Path-Finder]

Yes, I mention this in my previous post. But here is a view of one of Italian army boneyard. Where a good working equipment is rest for rust.

These M60 Tanks can be brought back to life and upgraded like Turkey has done. They have potential.

 

[JPMM]

It seems you are having a hard time in differentiating between surplus stocks comprising of "running" equipment and those stored in the boneyard to be scrapped.

Sometimes the difference is not big. Take a look at Golra
The M48A5 are "stored in the boneyard to be scraped" side-by-side with T69IIMP that were "running" and were modified to COIN operations for FC.

 

[Dazzler]

Sometimes the difference is not big. Take a look at Golra
The M48A5 are "stored in the boneyard to be scraped" side-by-side with T69IIMP that were "running" and were modified to COIN operations for FC.

Those "sometimes" are exceptions and should be taken as such. We may not see the M-47/48As reemployed in the mechanized/ armoured corps. The 69IIMPs, despite age, were in decent condition and picked as is with some mods applied for COINOPS. The gun was downgraded from 1-5mm L7 to 100mm.

Been to Golra twice in the last decade and has some interesting conversations.

 

[HAIDER]

It seems you are having a hard time in differentiating between surplus stocks comprising of "running" equipment and those stored in the boneyard to be scrapped.

Here interesting news from Italian newspaper

L’Espresso is reporting

that the Italian army has started to decommission and dispose of a large part of their surplus armor inventory. The article notes that unlike some other European countries, for nearly twenty years Italy has not released any tanks removed from service. Many of these vehicles are stored in the rice fields near Lenta, an area with contains more than 3,000 tanks and APCs. Italy has started to sell or scrap this massive collection of vehicles, said to be the largest concentration of non-operating tanks in the world. The article notes that some vehicles will be given to friendly countries, and many will be auctioned off. Included in the collection are hundreds of Leopard I MBTs, M113 APCs, M-109 SPGs and Centauro Wheeled AFVs . It is reported that both Pakistan and Jordan are in negotiations to purchase some of these vehicles. To read the L”Espresso article and photo gallery, click here (in Italian).

Italian Leo 1

Wheeled AFV

 

[Aamir Hussain]

these are leopard 1's

 

[HAIDER]

these are leopard 1's

Leopard 1A5 in service with the Italian Army nowadays. 120 surplus turrets were purchased from the Bundeswehr and served to upgrade 200 A2s hulls purchased in the meantime. The first batch of Leopard 1s (200) was delivered between 1971 and 1972, followed by two batches built by OTO Melara under licence, the first 400 Leopard 1s in 1974-80, and second of 120 build in 1980-1983. In addition OTO Melara assembled 28 Pionierleopard AEV in 1985 (plus 12 produced in Germany) and 64 Bibers AVLBs. All Leopards were gradually retired in 2003 to 2008, leaving only the Ariete in service.

A3 standard

You guys take ??. All retired now . May be few in service.

 

[HRK]

Another batch of 25x M109L arrived in Pakistan on 17 August 2018.

With the latest deliveries, the total number of M109L howitzers Pakistan has received reached 91.

132 surplus M-109L were on offer by Italy out of which till now we have received 91 (1+10+9+20+26+25=91) so we might hope to receive 41 more M-109L (132-91=41)

source

Leopard 1A5 in service with the Italian Army nowadays. 120 surplus turrets were purchased from the Bundeswehr and served to upgrade 200 A2s hulls purchased in the meantime. The first batch of Leopard 1s (200) was delivered between 1971 and 1972, followed by two batches built by OTO Melara under licence, the first 400 Leopard 1s in 1974-80, and second of 120 build in 1980-1983. In addition OTO Melara assembled 28 Pionierleopard AEV in 1985 (plus 12 produced in Germany) and 64 Bibers AVLBs. All Leopards were gradually retired in 2003 to 2008, leaving only the Ariete in service.

A3 standard

You guys take ??. All retired now . May be few in service.

I don't think PA would be interested in Leopard-1 tanks

 

[Gryphon]

132 surplus M-109L were on offer by Italy out of which till now we have received 91 (1+10+9+20+26+25=91) so we might hope to receive 41 more M-109L (132-91=41)
View attachment 493096
source

Their entire inventory is up for sale, i.e., 250+ units. Pak should get all of them, equip every IABG & IMBG, and the new Mech. Div. planned for XXX Corps.


En route Pakistan (2017)

 

[HRK]

@Gryphon ...

May 1, 2018 on the Pakistani military Internet forum defence.pk Gryphon shared an interesting find. The database for Pakistan's import pak.eximtradeinfo.com revealed the supply of self-propelled howitzers Oto-Melara M109L in 2017-2018. from the Italian supplier Leonardo Defense Systems under the contract of 30.06.2015. 10 units of the M109L were delivered on May 13, 2017, May 9 - 27, 2017, November 20 - 6, 2017 (this delivery was spotted by the Italian paparazzi in September 2017. ) and March 26 - 28, 2018. A total of 65 units for today. Whether the March party was final or the deliveries will be continued is still unknown.

https://altyn73.livejournal.com/1322797.html

 

[wali87]

r4

These have been purchased from surplus stocks, and before delivery undergo refurbishment at one of Leonardo's facilities. Not free.

From what I see,

152 M109A2 (8 regiments) are divided between 2x Armd. Div. (6 reg) and 2x Strike Corps IABG (2 reg).

115 M109A5 (6 regiments) are with 2x Mech. Div.

91 M109L (5 regiments) will probably go to 5x IABG.

So, thats M109 for 7x IABG, with 1x IABG yet to be equipped.

It is rumoured Pakistan is to receive the final batch, but Army intends to double M109L inventory. This could result in purchase of roughly 100 additional pcs.

i understand sir and am quite well aware of the procurement procedures for surplus. But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.

I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.

They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.

 

[MastanKhan]

r4

i understand sir and am quite well aware of the procurement procedures for surplus. But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.

I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.

They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.

Hi,

Rich countries have different standards for declaring machines to be outdated---. They have to save their industrial complex and manufacturing capabilities---.

It is just like hand me down clothes---. Like Landa bazaar---like a thrift store---. Perfectly good clothes that are sold and donated for less fortunate---.

And many a times here at thrift stores in so cal---many a clothing have original stickers on them---.

When you say " outdated "---what would you mean by that term---?

These BIG GUNS last for decades---the gun barrels can be replaced---systems and sensors upgraded as well.

 

[HAIDER]

Hi,

Rich countries have different standards for declaring machines to be outdated---. They have to save their industrial complex and manufacturing capabilities---.

It is just like hand me down clothes---. Like Landa bazaar---like a thrift store---. Perfectly good clothes that are sold and donated for less fortunate---.

And many a times here at thrift stores in so cal---many a clothing have original stickers on them---.

When you say " outdated "---what would you mean by that term---?

These BIG GUNS last for decades---the gun barrels can be replaced---systems and sensors upgraded as well.

Actually time after time these countries has to go for NATO standard and they have to retire certain weapon after certain period of time. As you know in last NATO conference Trump was angry about allies weapon upgrades . Where they suppose to spend 2 percent of there GDP for upgrade , but they spent far less and US was taking all brunt to keep there standard according to NATO requirement.

 

[wali87]

Hi,

Rich countries have different standards for declaring machines to be outdated---. They have to save their industrial complex and manufacturing capabilities---.

It is just like hand me down clothes---. Like Landa bazaar---like a thrift store---. Perfectly good clothes that are sold and donated for less fortunate---.

And many a times here at thrift stores in so cal---many a clothing have original stickers on them---.

When you say " outdated "---what would you mean by that term---?

AOA

Interesting and valid point sir regarding the preservation of domestic industry. Agreed. However i personally don’t consider our country as poor as people portray it to be. Poverty is prevelant in almost every country in the world. But a country with a GDP of 300 billion USD is certainly not poor despite the deficit. But that’s a different debate.

Outdated, the meaning is in the term itself sir. I could list the differences between variants A2 to A7 but judging from your number of posts and seniority, I feel you already know that.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

Rich countries have different standards for declaring machines to be outdated---. They have to save their industrial complex and manufacturing capabilities---.

It is just like hand me down clothes---. Like Landa bazaar---like a thrift store---. Perfectly good clothes that are sold and donated for less fortunate---.

And many a times here at thrift stores in so cal---many a clothing have original stickers on them---.

When you say " outdated "---what would you mean by that term---?

These BIG GUNS last for decades---the gun barrels can be replaced---systems and sensors upgraded as well.

I'd also take note of the fact that in the West, the private sector industries have a vested interest in new equipment purchases - i.e. it keeps their businesses going. However, seeing how scale has become very difficult to achieve, the West itself has largely moved to the model of sticking to one core platform for many decades (e.g. Leopard 2).

 

[niaz]

r4

i understand sir and am quite well aware of the procurement procedures for surplus. But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.

I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.

They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.

Old weapons do not automatically translate into “Obsolete”. Some old weapon systems remain as effective today as when these were first introduced. There are quite a few weapons designed more than 50 years ago which are still in use by the US Army. For example, the M2 Browning 0.50 calibre HMG has been is in continuous service since 1933. Carl Gustav recoilless rifle entered service in 1948 and M 240, the 7.62 MG has been in service since 1977.

M109L may not be as effective as the M109 A6 Paladin, nevertheless, the M109L with the 39 calibre barrel (a range of about 24 km) is still a very capable SP gun system. Especially in the face of Pakistan’s budgetary constraints; acquisition of 131 M109L guns means a substantial increase in her artillery power.