Italy delivering surplus self-propelled howitzers to Pakistan Army

[HAIDER]

Old weapons do not automatically translate into “Obsolete”. Some old weapon systems remain as effective today as when these were first introduced. There are quite a few weapons designed more than 50 years ago which are still in use by the US Army. For example, the M2 Browning 0.50 calibre HMG has been is in continuous service since 1933. Carl Gustav recoilless rifle entered service in 1948 and M 240, the 7.62 MG has been in service since 1977.

M109L may not be as effective as the M109 A6 Paladin, nevertheless, the M109L with the 39 calibre barrel (a range of about 24 km) is still a very capable SP gun system. Especially in the face of Pakistan’s budgetary constraints; acquisition of 131 M109L guns means a substantial increase in her artillery power.

A retired US Gen said after second Iraq war , end of day we are using same old conventional weapons which we been using for decades . It means how weapon is friendly with soldiers. It's friendship .

 

[MastanKhan]

acquisition of 131 M109L guns means a substantial increase in her artillery power.

Hi,

I don't know the numbers of heavy guns in a division---18 guns to a battalion---.

That would make it close to an artillery division---if I am not wrong---.

That is a massive increase in fire power in a very short time frame---.

AOA

Interesting and valid point sir regarding the preservation of domestic industry. Agreed. However i personally don’t consider our country as poor as people portray it to be. Poverty is prevelant in almost every country in the world. But a country with a GDP of 300 billion USD is certainly not poor despite the deficit. But that’s a different debate.

Outdated, the meaning is in the term itself sir. I could list the differences between variants A2 to A7 but judging from your number of posts and seniority, I feel you already know that.

Hi,

It is not about "consideration"---it is poor---.

The howitzers we are getting are not obsolete---.

An instant division strength of B quality howitzers is a massive massive force multiplier---.

Only if Napoleone had a cavalry division instantly at waterloo---history would be different---.

16 F16's from Jordan provided an instant air force Division---.

What do you understand and how do you comprehend the sudden appearance of a Division of military at your disposal in the heat of the battle where there was no resources available---?

Military strengths are always placed against time and position---.

 

[Gryphon]

But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.

IA is buying the M777 lightweight howitzer for deployment along the mountainous border with China. Otherwise, there are not many takers for 39 caliber towed guns these days.

I find it inappropriate to compare M777 with M109 SPH. The latter can keep up with armour and provide indirect fire support.

Guided munitions are not restricted to M777, the M109 can fire those as well.

From: https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/download-en-uk/20180620191930/1434602522105.pdf

For land platforms, Vulcano can be fired from all variants of BAE Systems’ M777 and M109 howitzers and the majority of weapons for allied militaries around the world.

As the original equipment manufacturer of these major gun systems, BAE Systems and Leonardo are best suited to integrate Vulcano into these weapons.

I mean it’s a good buy considering the price. Laikin 1970 ki mercedes aur 2017 main difference toh Hota hai na. Warna no one would buy the new model. If you know what I mean.

As NATO is an alliance, Italy does not need 1:1 replacement for retired artillery pcs. There is emphasis on modern weapons, the old stuff is sold for peanuts.

The situation is totally different in the subcontinent, where Indian military expansion is forcing PA to raise more armoured regiments. For more armoured regiments, you need more SP howitzers.

For list of PA armoured regiments, see: http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/armoured-corps-badges/
Few more armoured regiments have been recently raised.

The most convenient way is to buy these surplus pcs - available in Europe & elsewhere in hundreds. You can equip the IABG's and IMBG's, new Mech. Div. and if some are still left, attach a battery of 6 SP guns with the armoured regiment of each Infantry division. All this instantly adds to your capabilities.

The infrastructure to maintain these already exists at HIT, some spares are being manufactured within Pakistan. There exist rebuild facilities, after 10 years or so, HIT can rebuild these guns again, so they become good 'as new'.

There is the option of upgrades in future, since you have them in sizable quantities, Pak can go for a major upgrade program like Al-Zarrar for the tanks. The 39 cal. gun can be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall). The electronics and software can be upgraded as well.

They Could only be employed on the western border, effectively.

SP guns support the tanks, on the eastern border.

 

[AMG_12]

IA is buying the M777 lightweight howitzer for deployment along the mountainous border with China. Otherwise, there are not many takers for 39 caliber towed guns these days.

I find it inappropriate to compare M777 with M109 SPH. The latter can keep up with armour and provide indirect fire support.

Guided munitions are not restricted to M777, the M109 can fire those as well.

From: https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/download-en-uk/20180620191930/1434602522105.pdf

For land platforms, Vulcano can be fired from all variants of BAE Systems’ M777 and M109 howitzers and the majority of weapons for allied militaries around the world.

As the original equipment manufacturer of these major gun systems, BAE Systems and Leonardo are best suited to integrate Vulcano into these weapons.

As NATO is an alliance, Italy does not need 1:1 replacement for retired artillery pcs. There is emphasis on modern weapons, the old stuff is sold for peanuts.

The situation is totally different in the subcontinent, where Indian military expansion is forcing PA to raise more armoured regiments. For more armoured regiments, you need more SP howitzers.

For list of PA armoured regiments, see: http://www.pakarmymuseum.com/exhibits/armoured-corps-badges/
Few more armoured regiments have been recently raised.

The most convenient way is to buy these surplus pcs - available in Europe & elsewhere in hundreds. You can equip the IABG's and IMBG's, new Mech. Div. and if some are still left, attach a battery of 6 SP guns with the armoured regiment of each Infantry division. All this instantly adds to your capabilities.

The infrastructure to maintain these already exists at HIT, some spares are being manufactured within Pakistan. There exist rebuild facilities, after 10 years or so, HIT can rebuild these guns again, so they become good 'as new'.

There is the option of upgrades in future, since you have them in sizable quantities, Pak can go for a major upgrade program like Al-Zarrar for the tanks. The 39 cal. gun can be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall). The electronics and software can be upgraded as well.



SP guns support the tanks, on the eastern border.

m777s can be redeployed if things escalate with Pakistan. They are highly lethal and shouldn't be underestimated, just because India said it's for the Chinese front, doesn't mean it can't be redeployed.

 

[Gryphon]

m777s can be redeployed if things escalate with Pakistan. They are highly lethal and shouldn't be underestimated, just because India said it's for the Chinese front, doesn't mean it can't be redeployed.

I never said they can't be redeployed. With a stock of Excalibur, they are certainly lethal but this is true for the M198 & M109 as well.
M777's real advantage is forward deployment using sling equipment on a CH-47 Chinook.

 

[Signalian]

Range in SP systems is not that important as range in towed system. Its more important for SP to keep up with tanks, rather than SP taking on targets 50km+. The shoot and scoot is SP. How would range matter if tanks make contact with enemy 5km or 10 km or 15 km ahead. Tanks will always be moving and SP will never be far behind to lack Range by any means.

If its an SP gun with range of even 10 km firing range, induct it. Its wheels will compensate for range as well as counter battery fire.

 

[Signalian]

A retired US Gen said after second Iraq war , end of day we are using same old conventional weapons which we been using for decades . It means how weapon is friendly with soldiers. It's friendship .

It means that no other good alternative was found.

 

[Signalian]

But my point is, is there any wisdom in getting outdated howitzers to face an enemy whose getting 777s with gps correction if I’m not mistaken.

Firstly, M-109 is not outdated.
Secondly, Range is not the only factor that defines Artillery gun or acquisition of an artillery system.

 

[Signalian]

Hi,

I don't know the numbers of heavy guns in a division---18 guns to a battalion---.

Heavy Artillery can also also be a Corps asset, not just division.

 

[Incog_nito]

• 
  Italy: 221 M109L (with an Italian made 155 mm/39 calibre barrel)[30]

I think PA will going to acquire all of these?

 

[MastanKhan]

Heavy Artillery can also also be a Corps asset, not just division.

Hi,

Yes---.

 

[Gryphon]

PA doesn't use HE ERFB-BB ammo for 155mm howitzers but now this gap could be filled with evaluation of few foreign offerings ongoing.

This ammo enables ranges exceeding those of POF manufactured M107, Nexter LU211 HB/BB and Poongsan K310 BB-DPICM projectiles.

 

[khanasifm]

• 
  Italy: 221 M109L (with an Italian made 155 mm/39 calibre barrel)[30]

I think PA will going to acquire all of these?

That’s 12 new sp regiments ?? Each having 18 guns

The barrel of guns tanks /artillery usually have life of couple hundred rounds after which they needs replacement / refurbishment

 

[MastanKhan]

https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8758

 

[Arsalan]

does that mean the new tender for SP guns is invalid? 65 SP guns is not bad I suppose these will be updated by Pakistan bit like Mirages are by PAF. Keeps cost down and arty numbers up.

That one, THAT interest was actually in wheeled SPH. These are tracked M109s, we have a lot of these in our inventory already so this really is a smart move. The only thing i miss in these, again, MRSI! THAT IS A MUST FOR MODERN ARTILLERY in my opinion. That is what make it a weapons of modern battlefield. For wheeled SPH we did looked into MRSI capable systems.

That’s 12 new sp regiments ?? Each having 18 guns

The barrel of guns tanks /artillery usually have life of couple hundred rounds after which they needs replacement / refurbishment

1500-2000 rounds minimum