Italy delivering surplus self-propelled howitzers to Pakistan Army

[HAIDER]

Should buy all of them from Italy. Upgrade them to A5 standards including a 52 cal gun. Maybe get the FCS from Turkish SPH. We need SPH in strong numbers to maintain edge over the Indian Army.

For some reason PA seems not interested in Turkish SPH. Only few brought in for testing, later nothing adopted. Foreign components and price might be the major reason for not adopting from Turks. Because majority of Turkish weapons are European parts and design. Pakistan defence industry is far better then all muslim countries, because in limited money Pak army has to match its arch rival Indian defence.It is fact if Pakistan get a platform dirt cheap or free then why not modify with foreign cannon or compnent, after all US recently modified its own M109 to A7 standards.
A6 standard Paladin

A7 standard

 

[Cuirassier]

I have compiled a list of Pakistani IABG's as seen below

8 IABG - Kharian (I Corps)

19 IABG - Gujranwala (XXX Corps)

3 IABG - Chunian (IV Corps)

10 IABG - Bahawalpur (XXXI Corps)

2 IABG - probably near Karachi (V Corps)

14 IABG - probably near Multan (II Corps)

12 IABG - location unknown

42 IABG - location unknown

And, I retain my earlier assessment that XI and XII Corps don't have Independent Armoured Brigade Groups.



Some IABG's have M109 regiments, one such being the 39 SP Medium regiment based at Chunian. Italian M109L's will form more regiments.

IABGs are with arty, inf and armd brigs?
IV Corps ind Arty Brig is HQ in Chunian, rest might be there too then.

 

[Cuirassier]

IABGs are with arty, inf and armd brigs?
IV Corps ind Arty Brig is HQ in Chunian, rest might be there too then.

Oh i guess you are relating to the independent armoured brigades. Sorry

 

[Aamir Hussain]

As far as I know, IBAG's were formed to forward deploy Armored Elements in smaller units to counter Cold Start.

These were designed to be self contained, highly mobile units to engage the enemy in blocking actions around man made obstacles in our desert areas. Essentially, give time to bring tactical nukes into action.

 

[JPMM]

It seems to me that Independent Brigades (Infantry and Armoured), including those atached to Divisions as extra, have their Artillery Battery and not Regiment. Regiments being employd in Artillery Brigades (Army, Corps and Divisional)
I will give you two exemples, the Oto-Melara M56 105mm howitzer and the Chimese 85mm gun, they are not employd by Regiments
Thanks

 

[Path-Finder]

For some reason PA seems not interested in Turkish SPH. Only few brought in for testing, later nothing adopted. Foreign components and price might be the major reason for not adopting from Turks. Because majority of Turkish weapons are European parts and design. Pakistan defence industry is far better then all muslim countries, because in limited money Pak army has to match its arch rival Indian defence.It is fact if Pakistan get a platform dirt cheap or free then why not modify with foreign cannon or compnent, after all US recently modified its own M109 to A7 standards.
A6 standard Paladin

A7 standard

Turkish SP is based on South Korean SP which is a rework of the Paladin!

 

[Aamir Hussain]

As far as I know Oto-Melara-56,105mm is a Pack How. mostly used in mountainous terrain therefore it would not form part of a regiment but assigned to smaller units depending upon indirect fire support to front line units from established fire bases.

 

[JPMM]

Heavy are 12 each in 3 regiments. I II and V Corps.

Possibly one of the armored brigades doesnt have SP Regt, could be with XI Corps.


M-109's deployed in IABG's.

Sorry, you were right!
Just discover that PA SP Medium Regiments have 12x SP 155mm & 6x towed 130mm
That justifies the extra Regiments in IABG
But I dont like the idea of mixing SP and towed guns.
When I started in the Portuguese Army, my Brigade had 18x towed M101A1 105mm & 6x SP M109A2 155mm. It was a sh**t.
The M109 were allways stressed and the M101 were allways too late. The time required to install and move towed guns is no good for mobile warfare. Its a bad idea.
Thanks

 

[Gryphon]

Another batch of 25x M109L arrived in Pakistan on 17 August 2018.

With the latest deliveries, the total number of M109L howitzers Pakistan has received reached 91.

 

[JPMM]

Another batch of 25x M109L arrived in Pakistan on 17 August 2018.

With the latest deliveries, the total number of M109L howitzers Pakistan has received reached 91.

So +7 Regiments...

 

[khanasifm]

So +7 Regiments...

Typically a heavy/medium artillary regiment has between 18-24 guns or 3-4 batteries with 6 guns per battery

 

[wali87]

lol Humari govt. bhi har jaga mufta lagane ki kohshish main rehti hai.

 

[Signalian]

Field artillery units spend 10 years in peace zone, 10 years in A zone and 10 years B zone.

In Pakistan;
Peace zone = cantonment.
A zone = Active war zone, currently western front.
B zone = LOC or Siachen.

If a unit is not deployed to A zone, its rotates between B zone i.e. between Siachen and LOC to complete its tenure out of cantonment.

As far as I know, IBAG's were formed to forward deploy Armored Elements in smaller units to counter Cold Start.

These were designed to be self contained, highly mobile units to engage the enemy in blocking actions around man made obstacles in our desert areas. Essentially, give time to bring tactical nukes into action.

IABG's were formed pre-1965, when cold start did not exist.

6th Armoured Div was 100th IABG in 1965.
8th IABG saw combat in 1971.

As far as I know Oto-Melara-56,105mm is a Pack How. mostly used in mountainous terrain therefore it would not form part of a regiment but assigned to smaller units depending upon indirect fire support to front line units from established fire bases.

Oto-Melara 56 (105mm) are part of artillery regiments (units of battalion size), which are deployed in LOC and at other places too. Such units are deployed in terrains which are 5 km or more walk in mountains from road accessible areas and mules are used for cargo transportation on tracks. Such Areas of deployment are un-accessible by vehicles.

 

[khanasifm]

155 x 39 vs 45 vs 52 caliber guns some one posted in another forum

5 2-calibre refers to the barrel length, so it is slightly more than 1 meter longer than at 45-calibre barrel (155mm x 7 for the difference in length between the two, roughly). All else being equal, this means the propellant has more space and thus more time to combust and for the resulting gas to expand before the projectile leaves the tube, imparting more energy to the projectile, resulting in longer range. (Depending on a variety of factors, you could say an additional 10 to 20km, though I am sure someone will chime in with exact figures for specific projectile/charge combinations.)

The disadvantages? There aren't many, in my opinion, but apparently they are significant enough that the US can't manage to adopt a 52-calibre weapon... or even a 45-calibre one, for that matter (IIRC, both the M109A6 and M777 are 39 calibres, and currently the NLOS-C will be 30). A longer tube can be more difficult to manuever and transport, it adds a significant amount of weight to the system (since you also need a more robust carriage /mount, recoil system, etc, to cope with the more powerful recoil). Depending on your design, and what propellant you fire, the tube may wear out and need to be replaced sooner, if you make a habit of firing the higher charges used to attain that extra range (I've read of experimental designs that needed to be replaced after as few as a thousand rounds, which a tube of artillery in a high-tempo war could fire in less than 48 hours).

 

[Signalian]

Sorry, you were right!
Just discover that PA SP Medium Regiments have 12x SP 155mm & 6x towed 130mm
That justifies the extra Regiments in IABG
But I dont like the idea of mixing SP and towed guns.
When I started in the Portuguese Army, my Brigade had 18x towed M101A1 105mm & 6x SP M109A2 155mm. It was a sh**t.
The M109 were allways stressed and the M101 were allways too late. The time required to install and move towed guns is no good for mobile warfare. Its a bad idea.
Thanks

If you are or were part of artillery, you would know about rapid deployment of towed guns.

The amount of calculations done in mapping and firing is the main task; keeping in view movement of earth along its axis, gases in chamber and gases in different layers of the earth's atmosphere, the wind direction and speed at different heights from the ground, the temperature of the atmosphere and the gun (breech) etc.
and the role of FOO/FAO is even complex.

Artillery officers are a different breed of officers, they make pin point calculations and get into details of all affairs they encounter. You are very lucky if you have a junior artillery officer in your staff, as he will take care of all details for you however you will have a tough time if you have a senior artillery officer as he will want details of everything from you.

This is why the word of even a 2nd-Lt from Artillery Corps carries more weightage than that of an infantry officer, because the 2nd Lt will be speaking from calculations , his word will be based on logic from the book. He doesn't have ammunition to expend freely, every round counts and time is always of the essence.

Musharraf was an artillery officer, when handling civilian affairs like railways, irrigation etc, he would get into details of everything and then plan out a structure for solving an issue. He would start by generating history report and move on from that date wise. I am not his fan, I am just stating how an artillery officer tackles things.

The way i see your posts @JPMM , you like going in details just like an artillery man should