Italy delivering surplus self-propelled howitzers to Pakistan Army

[MastanKhan]

This part i agree, but those machines will have refurbishment cost and than upgrade cost.
Imagine of 500 man hours are spent on each machine before bringing them to service and if we estimate on average $500 /hour cost = $250'000 is only the service cost.
Required hardware would cost extra... and again i estimate only one new engine would cost $50'000 /machine.
I wonder, if it would be more clever to buy from HIT or abroad.

Hi,

Out labor rate is between 1-5 dollars an hour---so the man hour cost is between 5000-25000---. The engine will be rebuilt---for around 15-20000 dollars---.

So---for less than 100-250 thousand dollars you have a fine refurbished item +-.

 

[Inception-06]

41x M109A4+ SP howitzers have arrived in Karachi on 7 December 2017. Ex Canadian army pcs donated to Pakistan.

What are Pcs ?

 

[Shiji]

It is easy to bullshit on the internet.

Want to add anything constructive instead of waste or air and bandwidth?

What are Pcs ?

Pieces as in Artillery pieces.

 

[Kompromat]

Smart purchase with plenty of upgrade options.

 

[Thorough Pro]

We don't pay our Army engineers by the hour, they are already getting the pay, so no additional labour cost.

Hi,

Out labor rate is between 1-5 dollars an hour---so the man hour cost is between 5000-25000---. The engine will be rebuilt---for around 15-20000 dollars---.

So---for less than 100-250 thousand dollars you have a fine refurbished item +-.

Done, don't know how to add source though.

That's a large amount of firepower, which boost Pakistan's already excellent mobile artillery.



Bro do you know how to edit wiki and update the artillery page on the Pakistan army?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Pakistan_Army#Artillery

I tried and increased the number to 332? Or am I wrong here? I'm not sure how to do the rest i.e. they came from Italy and the reference.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

There should not be any argument as to the economics of the acquisition. I don't see any harm in that.

We have in the past got M113 APC to the tune of more than 1.5K from both US and Italy. We have gotten Maxxpro in hundreds from US and if we go back in the past, there other such acquisitions where we paid nothing but the transport costs and overnight formed brigades out of nothing!

The fact of the matter is that PA does not have the money to equip its rank and file as it wants it to be equipped. Therefore, we do with what we have and upgrade them as and when we have the funds available or buy excess items from the arms bazaar and slowly refrub. and upgrade them to today's standards.

The acquisition of SPG's clearly indicates the desire to form more Armored Brigades .... towards a more mobile and more flexible field force.

The obvious upgrades to these recent acquisitions would be an overall refurb. (US does it to its M1 Abrams extensively,even today in Alabama) refitting of a new barrel and recoil system, FCS upgrade, engine upgrade and transmission and suspension including re-tiring of the road wheels etc. I would think that comms. suit will also be changed including Battlefield Management Suit will be brought in line with what PA is operating with today. GPS System upgrade will also be done in line with those that are being done with T-80 UD's and other AFV's

 

[Gryphon]

if i m not mistaken we also operate some 60 M110 SPHs

40 M110A2.

I think all M109A2 were upgraded to A5 standards

PA M109A2's were never upgraded to M109A5.

The major difference between the two is the gun: M109A2 uses the M185 howitzer while the M109A5 uses the improved M284 howitzer. Both are 39 caliber guns and it isn't economically feasible to replace one 39 cal. gun with another 39 cal. gun unless there is a substantial increase in range.
However, it is a totally different scenario if the 39 cal. gun is to be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall and others).

Bro do you know how to edit wiki and update the artillery page on the Pakistan army?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Pakistan_Army#Artillery

I tried and increased the number to 332? Or am I wrong here? I'm not sure how to do the rest i.e. they came from Italy and the reference.

Hi, I maintain this Wiki article. I have completed review of all sections of this page except helicopters/fixed wing aircraft/radars/ATGM's/engineering vehicles which is a work in progress.

Unfortunately, I can't update the numbers of M109 as there isn't a reliable source (news article/journal/book,etc) supporting this content. This thread is based on data generated on import logs and other sources, which is not easily verifiable for others.

What are Pcs ?

As Shiji said, its [artillery] pieces.

 

[Cuirassier]

40 M110A2.



PA M109A2's were never upgraded to M109A5.

The major difference between the two is the gun: M109A2 uses the M185 howitzer while the M109A5 uses the improved M284 howitzer. Both are 39 caliber guns and it isn't economically feasible to replace one 39 cal. gun with another 39 cal. gun unless there is a substantial increase in range.
However, it is a totally different scenario if the 39 cal. gun is to be replaced by a 47 cal. gun (as on RUAG M109 KAWEST) or 52 cal. gun (offered by Rheinmetall and others).



Hi, I maintain this Wiki article. I have completed review of all sections of this page except helicopters/fixed wing aircraft/radars/ATGM's/engineering vehicles which is a work in progress.

Unfortunately, I can't update the numbers of M109 as there isn't a reliable source (news article/journal/book,etc) supporting this content. This thread is based on data generated on import logs and other sources, which is not easily verifiable for others.



As Shiji said, its [artillery] pieces.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Pakistan_border_skirmishes_(2016–present)
Who maintains this page? Full of horsecr*p every other day. Indian editors constantly meddle with figures.

 

[BATMAN]

We don't pay our Army engineers by the hour, they are already getting the pay, so no additional labour cost.

You seems to be clueless about the basic concept of calculating /estimating labor cost.

Salary is not the only cost /head there's building cost, utilities cost, cost of management, cost of risks, cost of administrative staff, cost of IT, cost of furniture, cost of vehicles,..... and many other costs.

An employee who withdraw $1000 /month, may cost employer $2000.
Hence, in a 40 hours week system, per hour cost comes out $12.5 /hr.
In Pakistan average salary of (productive) engineer is $2000 and they cost employer $3000+

In functioning organization, Engineers /non-Engineers are not sitting idle, they are always doing some work and recording their hours in that account.
When they change project /task, they record hours they spent on different account.

When you have more than one project /task, you distribute your time accordingly.
If there's no record of daily hours, how can one calculate the true cost of any business, and able to budget finances ?

 

[Thorough Pro]

If you say so, btw I was responding to your post where you mentioned "labour cost".
For your info I am a finance professional with 3 international certifications and 23 years of experience under my belt with multi billion dollar companies and Costing is my expertise.

You seems to be clueless about the basic concept of calculating /estimating labor cost.

Salary is not the only cost /head there's building cost, utilities cost, cost of management, cost of risks, cost of administrative staff, cost of IT, cost of furniture, cost of vehicles,..... and many other costs.

An employee who withdraw $1000 /month, may cost employer $2000.
Hence, in a 40 hours week system, per hour cost is comes out $12.5 /hr.
In Pakistan average salary of (productive) engineer is $2000 and they cost employer $3000+

In functioning organization, Engineers /non-Engineers are not sitting idle, they are always doing some work and recording their hours in that account.
When they change project /task, they record hours they spent on on different account.
When you have more than one project /task, you distribute your time accordingly.
If there's no record of daily hours, how can one calculate the true cost of any business, and able to budget finances ?

 

[MZ-PDF]

Great!

 

[JPMM]

There should not be any argument as to the economics of the acquisition. I don't see any harm in that.

We have in the past got M113 APC to the tune of more than 1.5K from both US and Italy. We have gotten Maxxpro in hundreds from US and if we go back in the past, there other such acquisitions where we paid nothing but the transport costs and overnight formed brigades out of nothing!

The fact of the matter is that PA does not have the money to equip its rank and file as it wants it to be equipped. Therefore, we do with what we have and upgrade them as and when we have the funds available or buy excess items from the arms bazaar and slowly refrub. and upgrade them to today's standards.

The acquisition of SPG's clearly indicates the desire to form more Armored Brigades .... towards a more mobile and more flexible field force.

The obvious upgrades to these recent acquisitions would be an overall refurb. (US does it to its M1 Abrams extensively,even today in Alabama) refitting of a new barrel and recoil system, FCS upgrade, engine upgrade and transmission and suspension including re-tiring of the road wheels etc. I would think that comms. suit will also be changed including Battlefield Management Suit will be brought in line with what PA is operating with today. GPS System upgrade will also be done in line with those that are being done with T-80 UD's and other AFV's

Last time they bought 115 M109A5, they formed two new Mechanized Divisions (54 M109 each)
Guess what!!!!

 

[JPMM]

Back in MAR 2015 I had allready told in Post 935 of Pakistan Army News

"Just read in a Italian site that Pakistan is interested not only in VCC1/2 but also B1 Centauro and M109L"

Visualizza articoli per tag: Surplus Difesa

And what about B1 Centauro?

There is a link to the business here
https://pak.eximtradeinfo.com/items/m109l-howitzer

 

[YeBeWarned]

Smart purchase with plenty of upgrade options.

you said in some thread that Pakistan will be getting these from a friendly country , few months back .. is that the same possible purchase you were talking about ?

 

[HAIDER]

Now here is important fact , every country in the world is now pulling in old weapon from there storage, modify and use them. Example, US has using Brancos OV-10 for anti terror operation. An excellent and low cost platform made in during Vietnam war , cannibalizing old M1A1 tanks and reusing them. US is very low in arm production for its own armed force consumption. As far as Pakistan concern , we have low defence budget compare to other countries , but since last many years military has made smart move, they are buying good old platform and modified according to there need. Like years ago US Gen said about use of modern weapon in war scenario ... We have all type of excellent weapon , but end of day we use guns and machine guns to neutralize our enemy ...it was about Iraq war.
If A ML109 chassis is good condition, then it has lot of room for modification. Like US recently updated the same platform with latest M777 gun. Then, why we spend millions of dollar on brand new order, when same platform already available dirt cheap.
Few months back talking to Rtrd military officer , why all of sudden Pak army use retired Chinese tanks and hundreds of Iraqi tanks gifted by US army to Pakistan after Kuwait invasion. He reply, we were almost going retired them, but after inspection we realized they are very good machine and in excellent condition with lot of life, so they search and come to conclusion this tanks has to modify these machines , just like German 125 smooth bore (if i am not wrong) . Now this same tank on frontline against war in terror ....