Italy delivering surplus self-propelled howitzers to Pakistan Army

[CriticalThought]

Data of IA or PA?

Realistic data that reflects real world systems and is indicative of the capabilities. I will be looking for hit probabilities, firing rates, potential of ammo to cause damage, potential of equipment to receive damage, distribution of equipment within formations, etc. None of these has to be actual values. We are war gaming hypothetical scenarios using realistic data.

 

[Gryphon]

Brothers what are the facts around the S.Korean towed artillery? Is it the Hanwha Corporation KH179 155 mm which was on loan through a trial?

Has there been a definite order for this gun?

PA has ceased procurement of new towed howitzers. The South Korean company was offering KH179 upgrade kits for M114. I am not aware of any orders.

current status is not known but only two pieces were imported for testing purpose

Only one.

Field and Medium Regiments convert to SP.

In PA, medium regt's mainly use 130mm and 155mm. The former is a field gun, but PA classifies it as howitzer. Possibly, some modifications have been made.

You are not factoring in the Independent Artillery Bde's under Corps HQ's. The M-109's are a maneuver piece of equipment, there presence in Arty Div is under utilization.

10, 11 and 12 Corps:

• 1x Corps Arty Bde each.
• No Indp Armd/Mech Bde Gp.

1 (Strike) Corps:

• No Corps Arty Bde, instead has 2 Arty Div under its command (with 2x Arty Bdes).
• 6 Armd Div - has 1x Arty Bde, which provides an SP Medium Regt to each Armd Bde.
• 8 IABG - 1x SP Medium Regt attached.

2 (Strike) Corps:

• 1x Corps Arty Bde.
• 1 Armd Div - has 1x Arty Bde, which provides an SP Medium Regt to each Armd Bde.
• 42 IABG - 1x SP Medium Regt attached.

4 and 30 Corps:

• 1x Corps Arty Bde each.
• 3 IABG (4 Corps) and 19 IABG (30 Corps) - each has 1x SP Medium Regt attached.

31 (Holding) Corps:

• 1x Corps Arty Bde.
• 26 Mech Div - has 1x Arty Bde, which provides SP Medium Regt's to 10 IABG, 14 IABG and 44 IMBG.
• No other IABG / IMBG.

V (Holding) Corps:

• No Corps Arty Bde, instead has 21 Arty Div under its command (with 2x Arty Bdes).
  
• 25 Mech Div - has 1x Arty Bde, which provides SP Medium Regt's to 12 IABG, 330 IABG and 31 IMBG.
  
• 2 IABG - 1x SP Medium Regt attached.

NOTES:

• 2 Corps Arty Bde includes 1x SP Heavy Regt.
• 21 Arty Div (V Corps) includes 1x SP Heavy Regt and probably 1x SP Medium Regt.
• 2 Arty Div (1 Corps) may also include 1x SP Heavy Regt.

So, all Corps with IABG / IMBG and/or Armd / Mech Div have SP Medium Regt's attached with these formations.

How do you intend to employ M109's with Corps Arty Bdes?


BTW, 1x SP Medium Regt has been assigned to an ID in South Punjab.

 

[Cuirassier]

We can come up with possible disposition of artillery formations in PA, but the actual setup is and will stay unknown outside GHQ.

 

[ziaulislam]

India is acquiring K-9 SPG from ROK for this purpose.

They would need at least 400-500

Pakistan needs light artillery and a plateform that can sling and move it

 

[Signalian]

How do you intend to employ M109's with Corps Arty Bdes?

I was intent on seeing where do extra M-109's land when all Arm'd/Mech formations are covered.

They would need at least 400-500

They will fill in with MBRL's.

 

[ziaulislam]

I was intent on seeing where do extra M-109's land when all Arm'd/Mech formations are covered.


They will fill in with MBRL's.

Cost effectiveness

 

[Signalian]

Cost effectiveness

cost effectiveness in a military campaign to capture territory ? really?

 

[ziaulislam]

cost effectiveness in a military campaign to capture territory ? really?

10,000s of rockets would be needed for huge operation..

Seriously dumb bumbs and PCB wouldnt exist ..just crusie missles would have been enough...

Cost ...logistics matters every where

 

[Signalian]

10,000s of rockets would be needed for huge operation..

Seriously dumb bumbs and PCB wouldnt exist ..just crusie missles would have been enough...

Cost ...logistics matters every where

The amount of damage that a MBRL is capable of doing is worth the cost.

 

[ziaulislam]

The amount of damage that a MBRL is capable of doing is worth the cost.

I guess everyone should retire arterllery and focus on crusie missles, rockets and blastic missles.

 

[Signalian]

I guess everyone should retire arterllery and focus on crusie missles, rockets and blastic missles.

Have to do with whats available without underestimating the enemy. If towed systems slows down the assault, wheeled will be used. MBRL's used in armored formations can wreak havoc on concentrated formations of MBT, IFV and APC.

 

[Humble Analyst]

On LOC we have big Guns but Towed Ones not SP ones

Thanks as terrain not suitable for SP

 

[Gryphon]

We can come up with possible disposition of artillery formations in PA, but the actual setup is and will stay unknown outside GHQ.

This applies to all units & formations, but I am not relying on Wikipedia for data.

I was intent on seeing where do extra M-109's land when all Arm'd/Mech formations are covered.

There are 17 IDs with armd regt's, if more M109's are delivered, PA could assign 1x SP medium battery per ID armd regt.

Thanks as terrain not suitable for SP

Wheeled SP howitzers can be used on LOC except a stretch in GB where disassembled artillery guns (130mm) and ammo are transported using helicopters and mules.

105mm howitzers (M101, Oto Melara Mod 56) can be quickly transported using Mi-17's with sling equipment installed, hence new light towed howitzers are not a priority, but I hear that wheeled 155mm guns are an urgent requirement.

 

[Signalian]

There are 17 IDs with armd regt's, if more M109's are delivered, PA could assign 1x SP medium battery per ID armd regt.

Then where will wheeled Arty go?

 

[Gryphon]

Then where will wheeled Arty go?

IMO, there are two possibilities:

• 1x SP Regiment per Corps Arty Bde / Arty Div SP Bde (18 x 9 = 162)

• 1x SP Regiment per Infantry Division Arty Bde (18 x 19 = 342)

One media report put PA's wheeled SPH requirement as high as 500, which makes me think 1x SP Regiment per Inf. Div. Arty Bde is probable.