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Italy aims to expand G8 to include China, India, Brazil

Well only if you were taking those decisions. You are not, so there.

The ones who are seem to know more, that's why they are where they are.

Pakistan is a small country only in relation to its two giant neighbors. Else it is the sixth largest by population in the world.

I can't imagine, I have to remind you of that.

P.S. There is only one member in the current G8 with more population than Pakistan.

Right and India's population is 4 times that of the largest G8 nation yet it is still not in the club. You don't seem to realize the fact that you are a confederation whose per capita GDP is comparable to Pakistan itself. I'm not making any decisions for the G8 club I am just remarking that whatever decision they made has some ulterior purpose related to boosting India's economy--NOT related to the power that India already has which is close to il when it comes to world trade.
 
The G 8 expansion is more to reflect the growing industrial prowess of nations which are outside G 8. The other countries are progressing so G 8 needs to be widened to represent more people. Nothing else.
 
Oh please what industrial prowess does India have right now? There isn't a single industrial product which India manufactures that a dozen other countries can't manufacture easily. In a case like Japan that is not true because of their highly developed technological base they design and manufacture thousands of electronic and machined parts which are in very high demand all over the world such as sophisticated chips used in sattelites.

There is nothing hi tech that India manufactures and exports that is based on any sort of "prowess" which is my point--that India is not being called in to the G8 as a recognition of any accomplishments but rather to serve as a reward for being a future tool of some sort.

India is dependent on state of the art defence technology on tiny industrialized nations such as Israel. It is not prowess being rewarded here.
 
See, it is not India (and the rest of BRIC and other emerging economies) which is applying for the club. It is the club which is inviting these countries.

Obviously they started at a time when per capita high income and the economic power of these countries were both the highest. Now even though their per capita income is still much higher, their national economic clout is decreasing.

I am reproducing some charts I posted earlier too to show the trend.



And



All this does not require a miracle, just a continuation of trends of the last few decades for the next few decades more.

Many people can see the obvious and are preparing for it. That's all there is to it.
 
The G8 was as much and perhaps more a political organization rather than an economic one. Solid proof of that is the fact that Russia was never a member until the USSR(an economic as well as a political block) broke up. So once again, regardless of skewed charts and graphs the impact on WORLD TRADE that India has is negligible so one can quite reasonably speculate that the reason it has been invited to join is because membership is a political carrot.
 
This chart below is complete nonsense, who made it up? It shows the per capita productivity of the Chinese as being equal to India's when the truth is that China is more than twice as productive per capita as well as overall than India is. Total fabrication. Add to that the fact that the Chinese have an average IQ of 105 whereas India's is in the 80s. The Chinese have virtually no AIDS and HIV and absolutely no malnourishment while Indians are poorly fed and unhealthy by comparison. Based on these stats and trends the graph is even more ridiculous.

 
The G8 was as much and perhaps more a political organization rather than an economic one. Solid proof of that is the fact that Russia was never a member until the USSR(an economic as well as a political block) broke up. So once again, regardless of skewed charts and graphs the impact on WORLD TRADE that India has is negligible so one can quite reasonably speculate that the reason it has been invited to join is because membership is a political carrot.

Well, one can take the horse to the water and no further. So you may believe what you want to.

This graph is as per the BRIC report and the results in the years since then have been actually higher than what the report predicted.

You may want to explain what is skewed about these charts.

I don't understand your obsession with just India out of the many emerging economies that the G8 wants to include in the gorup.

Or perhaps I do. ;)
 
This chart below is complete nonsense, who made it up? It shows the per capita productivity of the Chinese as being equal to India's when the truth is that China is more than twice as productive per capita as well as overall than India is. Total fabrication. Add to that the fact that the Chinese have an average IQ of 105 whereas India's is in the 80s. The Chinese have virtually no AIDS and HIV and absolutely no malnourishment while Indians are poorly fed and unhealthy by comparison. Based on these stats and trends the graph is even more ridiculous.

I see that you have not been able to understand the graph at all. It shows average GDP per capita. Its very clear on the graph. Perhaps it needs an IQ of >90 to understand.

The rest of the post is nothing but crap. It just shows the kind of arguments you want to make. It just shows visceral hatred irrespective of facts on the ground.
 
I see that you have not been able to understand the graph at all. It shows average GDP per capita. Its very clear on the graph. Perhaps it needs an IQ of >90 to understand.

No I understand the graph perfectly which is why I pointed out how ridiculous it was. And I see you have not disputed any of the points I made regarding the graph, any reason?

Please use your IQ of > 90 to explain:

1) Why the GDP per capita of the entire industrialized world dips to almost less than that of India in the year 2050. A nuclear holocaust? Or does the entire world start to suffer from malnutrition and epidemic disease, wars and famine? Or do they just drop their current lifestyles and decide to move to huts in villages where they just raise cattle?

2) Why does the GDP per capita of India show up as amost equal that of China in 2010 when we know the exact opposite is true and the gap between China and India is growing? I mean we are sitting in almost 2009 right now and everyone who is educated and sober knows the per capita of China is more than twice of India's and shows no chance of "equaling" that of India anywhere close to 2010.
 
No I understand the graph perfectly which is why I pointed out how ridiculous it was. And I see you have not disputed any of the points I made regarding the graph, any reason?

Please use your IQ of > 90 to explain:

You just made one comment about the productivity of the Chinese Vs. the Indians on the graph which is not what the graph is about. I am willing to answer any question that you want answered with a clear neeyat.

I will attempt to answer your queries still assuming that you want to really understand. If that is not the case, I am making a futile attempt.

1) Why the GDP per capita of the entire industrialized world dips to almost less than that of India in the year 2050. A nuclear holocaust? Or does the entire world start to suffer from malnutrition and epidemic disease, wars and famine? Or do they just drop their current lifestyles and decide to move to huts in villages where they just raise cattle?

The first graph is the total GDP of the 5 countries mentioned (Germany, Italy, France, US and UK) Vs. the other 4 countries mentioned (China, India, Japan, Brazil).

No unforeseen circumstances like the ones you mention are anticipated. It is just the result of the anticipated growth rates of these countries over the next 3-4 decades. Again this is just a continuation of something that is already happening in the last few decades. Nothing dramatic.

So you seem to have confused the first graph to be about the per capita income. It is not about that.

2) Why does the GDP per capita of India suddenly leap up to equal that of China in 2010 when we know the exact opposite is true and the gap between China and India is growing? I mean we are sitting in almost 2009 right now and everyone who is educated and sober knows the per capita of China is more than twice of India's and shows no chance of "equaling" that of India anywhere close to 2010.

The second graph (per capita income) does not show that the per capita income of China will equal India in 2010. In fact it shows that the gap will increase till late into the 2030 before starting to converge.

India is the base in the second graph (100) against which all these countries are projected over the next 40 years or so.

I hope I made it clear enough. Let me know if you still have questions that you want answered. I will be happy to answer.
 
You just made one comment about the productivity of the Chinese Vs. the Indians on the graph which is not what the graph is about. I am willing to answer any question that you want answered with a clear neeyat.

Productivity = what a person can produce. Large countries like India and China cannot afford to be vampire states like Dubai, Switzerland, Israel, Bahrain, Luzemburg etc because of the vast size of their population. Hence, their productivity = their consumption per capita for the most part. So once again when the GDP per capita of a Chinese is more than TWICE that of an Indian that means:

The productivity of a chinese worker is more than twice that of an Indian ON AVERAGE. This is because a Chinese is generally better nourished, better educated, better trained, faster, has a higher IQ, is more motivated and better organized than an Indian. Hence the real dollar value of what an average Chinese produces is more than twice that of an Indian. Hence the per capita GDP of a Chinese is more than twice that of an Indian so the chart is about productivity--about economic productivity. Do you understand now?

Productivty = GDP per capita when you talk about economies. It's not just used to measure factory efficiency.

I will attempt to answer your queries still assuming that you want to really understand. If that is not the case, I am making a futile attempt.


The first graph is the total GDP of the 5 countries mentioned (Germany, Italy, France, US and UK) Vs. the other 4 countries mentioned (China, India, Japan, Brazil).

I know exactly what the first graph is and since you mentioned the first graph please take a look at the RIGHT END of the charts you produced. You see in the last two decades the GDP of Chine has slipped from being about equal to that of India to being TWICE that of India's. Since they have almost exactly the same population it is plain obvious that the productivity of the Chinese is soaring in relation to that of the Indian and the gap is growing, not closing.

Do you comprehend that? The gap has been growing steadily for the last two or three decades and is consistently growing and not closing. Which means India is not catching up but slipping behind. It's a trend which anyone can see(holding the populations of India and China constant) and extrapolating the results it is obvious that the GDP of China will be at least 4 times the GDP of India by 2050.

Yet your second chart totally contradicts your FIRST chart both in past statistics, present data as well as future trends. This is why I picked the second chart out because it looks like total nonsense. According to you the productivity of the AVERAGE Indian and hence their GDP per capita will be about equal to that of an American in 40 years? That is ridiculous.

What is also odd about that chart is it shows a sudden leap in the chinese GDP per capita starting around 2010 when the truth is the chinese have been increading their productivity lead steadily and not haphazardly over the last 3 decades and are continuing to do so. That second graph is nonsensical in more than one way.

No unforeseen circumstances like the ones you mention are anticipated. It is just the result of the anticipated growth rates of these countries over the next 3-4 decades. Again this is just a continuation of something that is already happening in the last few decades. Nothing dramatic.

No it is dramatic. There is no way India can suddenly Industrialize and develop that way in the next 40 years without a radical revolution and even that is being very optimistic. You have nothing to back that, look at the HDI index of India and compare it with China, Japan and the US. And for the umpteenth time you are not catching up with the Chinese in any way but they are catching up to Japan, the US etc while India is actually slipping further behind. Statistics prove it.

So you seem to have confused the first graph to be about the per capita income. It is not about that.

I haven't even produced the first graph in my other posts so I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you have problems reading simple english. Show me where I even mention the first graph as being skewed.

The second graph (per capita income) does not show that the per capita income of China will equal India in 2010. In fact it shows that the gap will increase till late into the 2030 before starting to converge.

I dunno how you managed to misquote me there. I clearly said that the gap is widening and has been widening for the last 20 or 30 years. Why does the graph show a sudden jump in 2010? What is the explanation? And why would India suddenly start to catch up in 2030--by magic? That graph puzzles me. Historically it is incorrect as can be proved by looking at the first graph. Both your graphs contradict each other, do you even realize that?

India is the base in the second graph (100) against which all these countries are projected over the next 40 years or so.

I hope I made it clear enough. Let me know if you still have questions that you want answered. I will be happy to answer.

You don't have to explain how per capita calculations work I know that already. But you seem to be unable to grasp anything beyond division and percentage calculations. I already showed you in more than one post how you two graphs contradict each other and I also showed you that China is already twice as productive as well as twice as big in output as India and the gap is growing not closing. This is what you have to address--stop acting as if I don't understand those graphs. I am disputing the second graph it is just too mind boggling to comprehend and assing any credibility to.
 
Productivity = what a person can produce. Large countries like India and China cannot afford to be vampire states like Dubai, Switzerland, Israel, Bahrain, Luzemburg etc because of the vast size of their population. Hence, their productivity = their consumption per capita for the most part. So once again when the GDP per capita of a Chinese is more than TWICE that of an Indian that means:

The productivity of a chinese worker is more than twice that of an Indian ON AVERAGE. This is because a Chinese is generally better nourished, better educated, better trained, faster, has a higher IQ, is more motivated and better organized than an Indian. Hence the real dollar value of what an average Chinese produces is more than twice that of an Indian. Hence the per capita GDP of a Chinese is more than twice that of an Indian so the chart is about productivity--about economic productivity. Do you understand now?

Productivty = GDP per capita when you talk about economies. It's not just used to measure factory efficiency.



I know exactly what the first graph is and since you mentioned the first graph please take a look at the RIGHT END of the charts you produced. You see in the last two decades the GDP of Chine has slipped from being about equal to that of India to being TWICE that of India's. Since they have almost exactly the same population it is plain obvious that the productivity of the Chinese is soaring in relation to that of the Indian and the gap is growing, not closing.

Do you comprehend that? The gap has been growing steadily for the last two or three decades and is consistently growing and not closing. Which means India is not catching up but slipping behind. It's a trend which anyone can see(holding the populations of India and China constant) and extrapolating the results it is obvious that the GDP of China will be at least 4 times the GDP of India by 2050.

Yet your second chart totally contradicts your FIRST chart both in past statistics, present data as well as future trends. This is why I picked the second chart out because it looks like total nonsense. According to you the productivity of the AVERAGE Indian and hence their GDP per capita will be about equal to that of an American in 40 years? That is ridiculous.

What is also odd about that chart is it shows a sudden leap in the chinese GDP per capita starting around 2010 when the truth is the chinese have been increading their productivity lead steadily and not haphazardly over the last 3 decades and are continuing to do so. That second graph is nonsensical in more than one way.



No it is dramatic. There is no way India can suddenly Industrialize and develop that way in the next 40 years without a radical revolution and even that is being very optimistic. You have nothing to back that, look at the HDI index of India and compare it with China, Japan and the US. And for the umpteenth time you are not catching up with the Chinese in any way but they are catching up to Japan, the US etc while India is actually slipping further behind. Statistics prove it.



I haven't even produced the first graph in my other posts so I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you have problems reading simple english. Show me where I even mention the first graph as being skewed.



I dunno how you managed to misquote me there. I clearly said that the gap is widening and has been widening for the last 20 or 30 years. Why does the graph show a sudden jump in 2010? What is the explanation? And why would India suddenly start to catch up in 2030--by magic? That graph puzzles me. Historically it is incorrect as can be proved by looking at the first graph. Both your graphs contradict each other, do you even realize that?



You don't have to explain how per capita calculations work I know that already. But you seem to be unable to grasp anything beyond division and percentage calculations. I already showed you in more than one post how you two graphs contradict each other and I also showed you that China is already twice as productive as well as twice as big in output as India and the gap is growing not closing. This is what you have to address--stop acting as if I don't understand those graphs. I am disputing the second graph it is just too mind boggling to comprehend and assing any credibility to.

Maqsad. You seem to be thoroughly confused about what is being discussed.

I don't understand why you are so keen to discuss Chinese productivity here. That is not what my post was about. It was just to emphasize that the world economic balance is changing and the graphs just depict that. I am not interested in any India Vs. China thing here. That is just not the point even if you are so desperate to make it one.

The two graphs don't contradict each other. They just compliment each other. One is about per capita income, the other is the GDP of the countries. They were published in a reputed business magazine.

Just read the BRIC report from:

http://www2.goldmansachs.com/ideas/brics/book/99-dreaming.pdf

And now try to understand what the graphs represent.

There is no sudden jump in the graph. It just looks that way because of the scale/resolution. Just smoothen out the curve for your understanding.

You are totally wrong about the per capita income of India Vs. USA in 2050. The USA will still be 5 times India in 2050 and the graph clearly shows that. The USA was about 100 times India 2 decades back and is almost half now. So no need to be so startled by that.

Why would India start catching up with China in 2030? May be due to the aging Chinese population, may be India would have increased their HDI by then and have a more productive population. Let's wait and see. I have not created the graph, just posted them. But I do believe India will be there much before 2050, may be 1 decade earlier at least.

The second graph flows naturally from the current growth rates of the concerned countries. There is nothing incomprehensible about it. That is if one is willing to comprehend in the first place and has an IQ > 90.
 
good move indeed, G 8 should be converted to G 14 so that more countries can participate constructively in various matters.

Expansion of G-8 to G-14 is inevitable and the elite group might have as many as 25-30 memebrs in few decades since more and more countries are industrialising rapidly and current G-8 can not ignore the challenge by there emerging powerhouses.
I'm all in for the change. :tup:
 
This change is indeed painful for some countries who fear losing their place to the new upstarts (for them).

It is unavoidable though. The world balance of power is changing under our feet. Those who don't embrace the change will be left behind.

How long can a small cabal of countries who happened to emerge victorious from a war 63 years ago keep on deciding for the world?


Good point, allmost all current G-8 members will lose there spot to new comers due negative population growth which will result in severe skilled labor shortage. They'll be forced to rely on newcomers, outsourcing production as well as research centra to cheaper markets.
 
good point vinod, yes the world is changing. Slowly but surely. It is good to see Italy coming out from the old mentality. Same should be done with UN security council too. It should be extended to accommodate more members.

Expansion of G8 to G14 will reult in liberalisation of global economy whereas sxpansion of UNSC will only empower members states, there's a huge difference and Italy won't acept it.
Don't forget that it was Itraly who initiated anti expansion compaign, later joined by Pakistan.
 
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