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Israel's Struggle for Peace

i don't give a shit about monuments. i care only about locations. the fact that you couldn't comprehend the source of my complaints speaks to jews' self-illusion and a jew ethics growing out of your rootlessness and seclusion from normal and normative human contact.
So it's the location of the proposed monument that brought out the antisemitism in you? Do you also have war memorials to Germans and Russians or even Japanese or Americans in your home town? Do you hate those as well? Are you displacing that hate upon the Jews?

I do have trouble empathizing. I live in a town where considerable real estate is given over to monuments! I've always accepted that as a fact and never begrudged it. Indeed, D.C. could use a few more; I don't think we've ever properly commemorated the Russian Army for its great alliance with us in WWII. The Brits are honored with a statue of Churchill; no one wants to erect a statue of Stalin. Something else is needed, I suppose. The Chinese, too, deserve a place, especially for their kind treatment of U.S. airmen who crash-landed or bailed out over Chinese territory.

he used to have a chinese flag earlier.
Never met a Chinese like him. Well, China is a very big country...
 
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So it's the location of the proposed monument that brought out the antisemitism in you? Do you also have war memorials to Germans and Russians or even Japanese or Americans in your home town? Do you hate those as well? Are you displacing that hate upon the Jews?

I do have trouble empathizing. I live in a town where considerable real estate is given over to monuments! I've always accepted that as a fact and never begrudged it. Indeed, D.C. could use a few more; I don't think we've ever properly commemorated the Russian Army for its great alliance with us in WWII. The Brits are honored with a statue of Churchill; no one wants to erect a statue of Stalin. Something else is needed, I suppose. The Chinese, too, deserve a place, especially for their kind treatment of U.S. airmen who crash-landed or bailed out over Chinese territory.

Never met a Chinese like him. Well, China is a very big country...

that is why i said the ethical tradition of you jews is so profoundly self-obsessed that you could never see the injustice you do unto others, and that is exactly why some dirty jew consul would dare to propose to make a monument to my ancestors' jew-helping in my country.
 
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I find the self-confessed Zionist @Solomon2 extremely annoying, intellectually limited in his thought process, extremely biased, moralizing etc. but the other participant in this debate comes off as a complete lunatic.

@WebMaster @Aether @Oscar @Jungibaaz @Aeronaut

Time to clean this thread I believe.
 
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I find the self-confessed Zionist @Solomon2 extremely annoying, intellectually limited in his thought process, extremely biased, moralizing etc.
Thank you, cousin. I hope I remain true to my principles and never expand my intellectual limits to embrace the postmodern fallacy that there are no objective truths and every narrative is equally worthy, as long as it serves one's convenience. If I could pray to G-d for a gift, it would be that of teaching reluctant students hard truths without being annoying.

but the other participant in this debate comes off as a complete lunatic.
Israel doesn't want peace they want the land of others

al-Hasani, you recognize lunacy. But blind comments like al-Farsi's empower lunatics, encouraging them to carry out their crazed agendas. And because neither of us want to empower lunatics to carry out murderous violence, this is something we can work together on, don't you think?

Time to clean this thread I believe.
Then we'd be willfully blind to the hatreds out there, wouldn't we?
 
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Lol, mate. He is chinese, he shouldn't talk for muslims.

He hates Turks and Jewish people, maybe some more along them i don't know.

This a$$hole represents only himself, and is an desperate attention seeker craving for a reaction from everyone else on this forum. I don't have any problem with Turks. Most people in China do not know what pan turkism is.
 
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Thank you, cousin. I hope I remain true to my principles and never expand my intellectual limits to embrace the postmodern fallacy that there are no objective truths and every narrative is equally worthy, as long as it serves one's convenience. If I could pray to G-d for a gift, it would be that of teaching reluctant students hard truths without being annoying.



al-Hasani, you recognize lunacy. But blind comments like al-Farsi's empower lunatics, encouraging them to carry out their crazed agendas. And because neither of us want to empower lunatics to carry out murderous violence, this is something we can work together on, don't you think?

Then we'd be willfully blind to the hatreds out there, wouldn't we?

Cousin, if you had any principles you would at least speak out against the obvious injustices that the Israeli regime and state that is run by Zionists like you have committed since its existence and is committing while we speak.

That individual is neither from the ancient MIddle East, an Arab or a Muslim. He is a Chinese. So what representative are you talking about?

There are many persons like him among Jews and Americans who write similar comments about Muslims, Arabs etc. We both know this.



Independent scholar and author, Norman Finkelstein, speaking at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. The title of the lecture is "The Coming Breakup of American Zionism".

PART 1


PART 2

[/quote]

Or this below. Not only the 1 part.


When you have shown that you are capable of that and thus objectivity you can return to preaching about morals etc. Until then those are all empty words.

Lastly what's this nonsense? "Israel's Struggle for Peace"? So the oppressor and occupier is now the innocent party and the one that seeks "peace". Interesting. I wonder why Israel is sabotaging every attempt of that then.
 
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Recognition
By JPOST EDITORIAL
03/26/2014 21:05

The question remains whether the Arab League and the PA leadership would be willing to declare their recognition of Israel as a state with the right to maintain a Jewish majority.
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Closing session of the 25th Arab Summit Photo: REUTERS

Now it is official – again. The Arab League capped its two-day summit in Kuwait with the following statement: “We express our total rejection of the call to consider Israel as a Jewish state.” This was essentially a repeat of the second of the “three noes” issued at the 1967 Arab League summit at Khartoum.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas now has all the backing he needs to continue to refuse the Israeli demand to recognize the State of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people. Abbas has consistently opposed such recognition, presenting it as a completely new, never-before mentioned, Israeli condition for peace.

The fact is, however, that defining Israel as a “Jewish state,” if for no other reason than to differentiate it from an Arab or a Palestinian state and to ensure that at least one country in the world is set aside for the Jewish people, dates back to Israel’s very inception. Palestinian rejection of this term happens to be just as old. The 1947 United Nations partition plan, which the Arab nations and the Palestinians rejected, and which the majority of the nations of the world as well as the Jewish leadership in Palestine affirmed, called for the creation of “Arab and Jewish states.”

Thirty years before partition, the Balfour Declaration in 1917 set out Britain’s commitment to the “establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.” The mandate for that purpose, created in 1922 by the League of Nations, divided the original territory of Palestine to include a national home for the Jewish people, under British rule, and created Transjordan under the rule of the Hashemite family.

Back in 2009, the Palestinians’ chief negotiator, Saeb Erekat, attempted to revise history by producing a copy of a letter signed by US president Harry S. Truman on May 14, 1948. In its original form, it recognizes the provisional government of the new Jewish state. But the typed words “Jewish state” in the second paragraph were crossed out and replaced with the handwritten “State of Israel.”

Erekat failed to mention, however, that Truman adviser Clark M. Clifford was the one who made the correction, not to deny its Jewish character, but rather to call the country by its official name.

In recent years, recognition of Israel as a Jewish state has consistently been a demand of Israeli diplomatic endeavors on the Right and on the Left. The 2003 Geneva Accord, pushed by central figures on the Israeli Left, affirmed “the recognition of the right of the Jewish people to statehood and the recognition of the right of the Palestinian people to statehood, without prejudice to the equal rights of the parties’ respective citizens.”

One of the 14 Israeli reservations attached to the 2003 US Road Map was in “the final settlement, declared references must be made to Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state.”

From the Palestine papers, a massive trove of leaked documents published by Al Jazeera (also known as “Palileaks”) which record a decade of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, it emerged that then-foreign minister Tzipi Livni (and current Israeli chief negotiator) raised the issue of Palestinian recognition of Israel as a “Jewish state” in 2007.

It is, therefore, disingenuous of Abbas and other Palestinian leaders to claim that the Israeli demand for Palestinian recognition of Israel as a “Jewish state” is new.

In any event, the issue of Palestinian recognition has become an obstacle. Indeed, dissent on this single issue might result in the demise of the entire peace process.

Throughout its short history, consecutive Israeli governments have understood the importance of receiving Palestinian recognition as an integral part of resolving the conflict between two national movements with distinct aspirations for self-determination, that are competing for the same slice of land.

However, with a little good will on both sides, there might be a way forward. Khalil Shikaki, director of the Palestinian Center for Survey and Policy Research and a leading expert on Palestinian opinions, says a majority of Palestinians would be willing to support the concept of Israel as a “Jewish state” on condition that its “Jewishness” is defined narrowly as a state that is guaranteed a Jewish majority, a definition many Israelis would be willing to sign off on as well.

Palestinians would give their support as long as they do not perceive the Israeli demand for recognition as an attempt to annul the Palestinian narrative emphasizing the Palestinian people’s own unique ties to the land.

The question remains whether the Arab League and the PA leadership would be willing to declare their recognition of Israel as a state with the right to maintain a Jewish majority.

It they are, perhaps the present impasse in negotiations can be overcome. If they are not, it suggests that their nefarious intention is to perpetuate the struggle against a Jewish state within any borders.

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Former Islamist Says 'Palestinian Leadership' Preventing Peace
Former member of Egyptian terrorist group says 'suffering of Palestinians' caused by their leadership's 'barbaric attitude towards Jews'.
By Ari Soffer
First Publish: 3/27/2014, 10:38 AM


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PA Chairman Abbas
Flash 90

A prominent former Islamist, now self-declared "reformer of Islam", Dr. Tawfik Hamid, has reiterated his view that the ball is in the Palestinians' court to make peace with Israel.

Dr. Hamid is a Senior Fellow and Chair for the Study of Islamic Radicalism at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies, and formerly a member of the radical Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya group in Egypt, which is blacklisted by the US and other countries as a terrorist group.

He said that although it is undeniable that many Palestinian Arabs are suffering, the facts on the ground prove that the finger of blame should be pointed not towards Israel, but towards Hamas and "the Palestinian leadership" who, instead of responding to repeated Israeli overtures for peace, instead pursue an agenda of anti-Semitic incitement, rejectionism and terrorism.

"You have one million Arabs living in Israel with the Jews, and they are not suffering like the Arabs who are actually controlled by Arabs" elsewhere in the region, Dr. Hamid pointed out.

"To be honest, you have to say that the suffering of the Palestinians is because of their leadership and the wrong decisions of leaders like Hamas, not Israel," he said. "The moment the Palestinian leadership stops its arrogance and its barbaric attitude towards the Jews then you will see that things will change and you will see that no Palestinian will be suffering there."

[Go to article website for video]

Israeli officials have often pointed to the repeated incitement and refusal to recognize the Jewish people's right to self-determination as the major stumbling blocks to a peace agreement.

The Palestinian Authority, however, has repeatedly said it would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and claimed that it is not responsible for incitement which takes place in its own media outlets.
 
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Israel's struggle for peace!? LOL!

How is it possible for religious nationalists to struggle for 'peace'?

You meant Israel's struggle to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians through modern methods without being condemned by the world.
 
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Noga Tarnopolsky April 1, 2014 17:50
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This Arab man is against the release of Israel's Palestinian prisoners
Why? Because two of them killed his sister. It's not as simple as Jews vs. Muslims.

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An Israeli woman holds signs in front of pictures of Israelis who were killed by Palestinians militants during a Jerusalem protest against the release of Palestinian prisoners. (AHMAD GHARABLI/AFP/Getty Images)

JERUSALEM — Easy-going and quiet-spoken, Orhan Turk, 37, is an unlikely hard-liner. But as diplomats work feverishly around the clock to salvage the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, which would include the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails, Turk is fervently hoping they’ll fail.

Turk is an Arab Israeli. "We're Muslims," he says, "but just regular" — he prays but is not particularly observant.

Sabriya, his older sister, was Israel's heavy-weight boxing champion, "just like Mike Tyson," Turk says proudly. When he was 12 and she was 21, Sabriya was one of seven people killed by Mahmud and Muhammad Halaby, Gazan brothers dispatched by Hamas to
Tel Aviv with explicit instructions to kill Arabs and Jews.

Sabriya was near home, at a kiosk known for its excellent toasted cheese sandwiches, when she heard a friend screaming in the apartment above. Sabriya went up, and was bludgeoned over the head with a 22 pound hammer and strangled till she died.

It later emerged that Mahmud Halaby was a Hamas operative, and that the murders in Jaffa had been ordered to expiate the dishonor brought about by his brother Muhammad’s collaboration with the Israeli secret service. Turk says "they were told that killing an Israeli Arab is as good as killing a Jew."

The crime was initially classified as merely "criminal," before the families of Sabriya and her friend sued the State of Israel to be recognized as victims of terror. The Halaby brothers were sentenced to seven consecutive life terms.


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A newspaper clipping provided by Orhan Turk shows his sister, Sabriya.

Turk is now a brand new father. A professional musician, he co-owns a recording studio in a Tel Aviv suburb. And neither he nor his family understand why the men convicted of killing Sabriya are now up for release as part of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.

"[Abbas] is asking for them both. What kind of business is it of his, anyway?" Turk says. "I don't really care who or what they are, Jews, Muslims, whatever: They killed Israeli citizens and they should serve out their term."

The Israeli government did not notify the Turk family that Sabriya's killers were on the list of prisoners scheduled for release. They found out from a journalist, and ever since "my mother has been crying every day," Turk says. His mother, Gunay, is 70. "She hates everyone connected to this government. She says that if it was Netanyahu's daughter, you bet no one would be released."

The politics of the prisoner release and, more broadly, the peace talks, is complicated, with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu under pressure from the American government to compromise and from right-wing Israelis to hold firm. Furthermore, as part of the last-minute jockeying to prevent the peace talks' collapse, both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides have significantly upped the ante.

Late Tuesday, the Palestinian government
applied for observer status at 15 UN institutions, throwing another wrench in the negotiations, and continued to insist upon the release of up to 1,000 Palestinian prisoners, many more than the 26 originally scheduled to be freed in this fourth step of the peace talks. Among them, Ramallah is demanding the release of 14 Israeli Arabs convicted of "nationalistic crimes," meaning acts of terror in the name of the Palestinian cause.

The 4,700 Palestinian prisoners convicted of terror and held in Israeli jails have achieved mythic proportions in the popular imagination. The release of Israeli citizens, Abbas hopes, will be seen as a signal achievement on an international scale, legitimizing the Palestinian national struggle.

For Israel, the potential release of its own citizens presents a legal and political conundrum, in effect signaling that even the supremacy of the law can be flouted in the name of a political process that has yet to yield results.

Turk, who has no political allegiance, opposes the release on legal and moral grounds; he has no sentiments regarding his fellow Israeli Arabs also to be released. Turk suggests that peace with the Palestinians can be achieved using other enticements that do not threaten the rule of law, such as territorial exchanges or lessening limitations on Palestinian ties to international commerce.

"Releasing killers has nothing to do with this," he says.

Netanyahu is no fan of prisoner releases. But he cannot commit to evacuating Palestinian areas in the West Bank without losing his rightwing coalition partners — and, most likely, his government.

To take some of the sting out of the deal they are being asked to strike, the Israeli government is demanding from the
United States the release of Jonathan Pollard, to Israelis as symbolic a figure as the Arab prisoners are for Palestinians. Pollard, an American Jew, was convicted in 1987 of passing classified documents to an Israeli handler. Every American administration of the past 20 years has refused Israeli entreaties to parole him.

Pollard's release may be Secretary of State John Kerry's last chance at a Hail Mary pass, but there's
significant opposition to the move from the US intelligence community.

If Pollard is released before Passover, the Jewish holiday of liberation, which falls on April 14, Netanyahu hopes the symbolism and the ensuing jubilation will counter right-wing outrage about political concessions, allowing for the release of the Palestinian prisoner.

Esther Bar-Zion, the Turk family's attorney, says "if I was certain that by releasing terrorists we would be assured a real peace, I'd have to say the price might be worth it. But that is just not the case."


This Arab man is against the release of Israel's Palestinian prisoners | GlobalPost
 
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How Many Palestinians Would Endorse a Jewish State?
Rick Richman | @jpundit
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04.03.2014 - 12:55 PM

In “The Real ‘Jewish State’ Story,” Ben-Dror Yemini, a senior Maariv journalist, notes the issue of Palestinian recognition of a Jewish state was not raised first by Benjamin Netanyahu. It was not raised first by the Israeli right. It was not raised recently. It was part of the 2000 Clinton Parameters, which proposed “the state
of Palestine as the homeland of the Palestinian people and the state of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people.”

Yemini notes that recognition of a Jewish state is endorsed across the entire Israeli political spectrum, both within and without the governing coalition.

The Ramallah-based Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) has just released a
new poll, conducted March 20-22 in the West Bank and Gaza, in which one of the polling questions raised this issue:

There is a proposal that after the establishment of an independent Palestinian state and the settlement of all issues in dispute, including the refugees and Jerusalem issues, there will be mutual recognition of Israel as the state of the Jewish people and Palestine as the state of the Palestinian people. Do you agree or disagree to this proposal?” [Emphasis added].

The percentage of Palestinians that “certainly agreed” was 3 percent. A total of 58.5 percent disagreed.

In other words–just as Israel’s Ron Dermer
asserted at AIPAC five years ago–the Palestinian refusal to recognize a Jewish state does not involve the refugees. The poll assumed “all issues in dispute” were settled, including the refugees. But even with no other issue remaining on the hypothetical table, a lopsided majority of Palestinians rejected a Jewish state.

The Palestinians push a specious “right of return” (which no other refugee group has ever been granted, much less Arab ones from a war the Arabs started). They express faux concern for the Arab minority in Israel, but those Arabs have far more civil and religious rights than they would under a Palestinian state (according to the PCPSR poll, only 31 percent believe people in the West Bank can criticize the PA; only 22 percent believe people in Gaza can criticize Hamas).

In 1947, the UN proposed a two-state solution involving an “Arab state” and a “Jewish state.” The Arabs rejected the resolution, rejected a state for themselves, and started a war. They still reject a Jewish state 66 years later. Yemini ends his article as follows:

[A]nyone who justifies the Palestinian refusal is not bringing peace any closer, but rather pushing the chances of a two state solution further away … On this issue [Netanyahu] deserves total support. Not to torpedo peace. But just the opposite. To pave the way to peace.
 
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