Israel's Struggle for Peace

[bandit]

The thing is, Israel does follow international law; it's merely accused of not doing so, or else international laws (like the Geneva Conventions) are twisted into something unrecognizable that then is only applied to Israel and not others - which means it isn't law at all.

It's the difference between what things are and what they are called. This is one of the things the Ca

Every competent authority on law , including the Israeli supreme court has pointed out the fact that Israel is in violation of the hague convention, which it is a signatory to and bound by it.

And your defense using the golden Rationalization, ignoring law since you perceive it being selectively applied, does not hold water legally. Its like saying Eichmann should not be accused of killing Jews in WW2 since everybody else was doing the same..

The author is asking for support for Israel based on humanitarian arguments, probably because he knows as well that Israels position of occupation is against the law.

 

[Jaanbaz]

New thread. Let's make it sticky, please. Here's my choice of lead article:

It’s About the Settlements, Stupid
December 17th, 2013 - 8:33 am

Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria, the misnamed occupied territories, are not the obstacle to peace between Israelis and Palestinians. They are the acid test of peace. To argue that peace is conceivable unless the bulk of the settlements remain in place constitutes stupidity or hypocrisy. Leave aside the issue of whether Jews have the right to live in the historic homeland of the Jewish people. Ignore the fact that the settlers live overwhelmingly on what was waste land and turned into gardens, vineyards, and industries which have uplifted the lives of Palestinian Arabs more than all the aid that has passed through (or rather stuck to) the fingers of the kleptocrats of the PA. Leave aside also Israel’s requirement for defensible borders: that is a critical issue but not identical to the continued presence of settlements.

Accepting the settlements is the sine qua non of any viable peace agreement. It does Israel no good to defend Israel’s right to exist but to condemn the settlers, as does Alan Dershowitz, not to mention the leaders of liberal Jewish denominations.

I believe in land for peace. That is a tautology: In territorial disputes the two main variables always are land and peace. But that implies more land for more peace and less land for less peace. The Palestinian Arabs had an opportunity to accept an Israeli state on just 5,500 square miles of land in 1947, and refused to do so. The armistice lines of 1948 left Israel with 8,550 square miles, and the Arab side refused to accept that. In 1967 Israel took an additional 5,628 square miles of land in dispute under international law; Jordan does not claim it, and no legal Arab authority exists to claim it. It is not “illegally occupied.” It has never been adjudicated by a competent authority.

To demand the 1948 armistice lines (the so-called 1967 borders) is to refuse any penalty for refusing to make peace in the past. That is the same as refusing any peace at all. Wars end when one side accepts defeat, and abandons the hope of restoring the status quo ante by force of arms. 1947 was a catastrophe (“Nakba”) for the Palestinian Arabs, to be sure, but it was a catastrophe of their own making; until they accept at least some degree of responsibility for the catastrophe, they will not be reconciled to any peace agreement. That is precisely what Palestine’s negotiator Saeb Erekatmeant when he eschewed any recognition of Israel as a Jewish nation-state because “I cannot change my narrative.” The “narrative” is that the Jews are an alien intrusion into the Muslim Middle East and eventually must be eliminated by one means or another.

The Palestinian Arabs are a people in decline, and the vehemence of their leaders reflects the dimness of their future. It is noteworthy that Secretary of State John Kerry continues to talk of a “demographic time bomb” threatening Israel, even though the data show that the Jewish population between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is increasing faster than the Arab population, as former Israeli diplomat Yoram Ettinger observes. That’s based on undisputed data; in fact, Palestinian population data are inflated by an enormous margin, as a 2006 study by the Begin-Sadat Center at Bar-Ilan University demonstrated:

[The Palestine Central Bureau of Statistics] projected that the number of births in the Territories would total almost 908,000 for the seven-year period from 1997 to 2003. Yet, the actual number of births documented by the PA Ministry of Health for the same period was significantly lower at 699,000, or 238,000 fewer births than had been forecast by the PCBS. … The size of the discrepancy accelerated over time. Whereas the PCBS predicted there would be over 143,000 births in 2003, the PA Ministry of Health reported only 102,000 births, which pointed to a PCBS forecast 40% beyond actual results.​

The hold of traditional Muslim society on young Palestinian Arabs, especially young women, is deteriorating: as they gain access to secondary and tertiary education, young Arabs have fewer children and more careers. And the most effective agency for the emancipation of young Arab women is the settler movement. Ariel University across the so-called Green Line is full of young Muslim women in headscarves studying computer science, and the leaders of the Ariel community–Haredi Jews–work with local Arab leaders to recruit talented students.

There is a parallel to what I called the “peace of the aging” in Ireland. The Irish got older. The drunken IRA killers I met in Belfast in 1970 as a student journalist had no intention of making peace. They were having too much fun at war. By 1996, when former Sen. George Mitchell presided over the Good Friday Agreement that formally ended the low-intensity civil war in Northern Ireland, those who were left had families and mortgages.

Distribution of Irish Population by Age (UN)

By 2040 the Palestinian Arab population will have far fewer young people and far more middle-aged people.

Distribution of West Bank Arab Population by Age (UN)

The Irish no longer care. They are neither Catholic nor nationalistic. The IRA thugs of 1970 came from four-child families. Today the Irish have fewer than two children on average. Let the matter simmer for another twenty years, and the Palestinian Arabs will look more like the Irish of 1996 than the Irish of 1970. At that point, the “narrative” will change, because no one will care about the old “narrative.”

In the meantime the Israeli settlers have built a garden and a workshop where before there were bare rocks, and thriving communities that are integral parts of Israeli society. It takes longer to get crosstown in Manhattan in traffic than it does to drive from the center of Tel Aviv to Ariel, the largest town in Samaria. This is yet another accomplishment of Jewish ingenuity and industriousness, and it is (or should be) an inspiring example to all who hope for a better life for the peoples of the Middle East. We will know that the Palestinians want peace when they admire rather than abhor this effort.

The utopian delusions of the Obama administration, the hypocrisy of the world, and the betrayal–yes, I think that is the right word–of Israeli interests by the liberal American Jewish denominations have put Israel in a painful situation. The threat of economic sanctions from Europe or reduced American military support if Israel refuses to swallow the poisoned bait are not a trivial threat. As Caroline Glick writes today:

With Kerry poised to shove his lethal parameters down our throats, parameters that will require Israel to irrevocably accept terms of peace that will destroy the country, it is obvious that Netanyahu needs to adopt a longer-term strategy. Our goal cannot be limited to waiting out Obama. Our goal must be to extricate Israel from the two-state trap.

Yes, Israel will pay a huge price for jumping ship. For 20 years, non-leftist Israeli leaders have been trying to go along to get along with the Left, and the Americans and their ever-escalating demands. But Kerry’s obsessive harping, and his insistence on pushing forward with his disastrous framework deal forces our hand.

Either we pay a huge price now, or accept our destruction within five to 15 years.
​

Ms. Glick is Israeli, and has a right to urge a particular course of action for her country. I am American, and direct my comments instead to my liberal Jewish co-religionists: Your support for the Obama administration and your betrayal of Jews on our front line in Judea and Samaria is a wicked and disgraceful thing. We must summon all of our strength to prevent this administration from punishing Israel for refusing to commit suicide.

As a religious Jew, I believe that Jews are obligated to settle our historic homeland, but I also believe that the preservation of Jewish life takes precedence. If it were possible to achieve a durable and robust peace by abandoning the settlements I would support it. But that is a delusion: we will make ourselves immeasurably less secure by abandoning the settlements than by holding fast to them.

****

images courtesy shutterstock / Appolinaria
​

I respect the right of Israelis to live in peace. But on the other hand there is enough evidence to suggest that Israel will continue to expand its borders. A slow genocide of Palestinian population is on going in Gaza. By block aiding necessary foods and nutrients for young children the next generation of Palestinians will be born weaker not only physically but also mentally. The prison like situation will make sure the Palestinian people will always feel that they are at mercy of Israel and are in fact prisoners. Israel has also been settling occupied Golan heights it took from Syria. UN law clearly states that occupied territory cannot be settled by civilians in order to change the demographics of the occupied land.

While Muslims are busy fighting each other, Israel actually has plans for a greater Israel border which will include Jordan, parts of Syria and even parts of Saudi Arabia.

 

[bandit]

Dismantling the walls would jeopardize Israeli lives. The wall barely keeps two mutually hating communities away from each other. It is essential for now at least. Besides, lets face it - the world does not care much for the Jews. So there is a tendency to trust no one among the Jewish leadership other than their own strength. That's what they are projecting - strength.

True - the wall does jeopardize Arab lives. But then it's all relative, isn't it? A jihadi will wish for the electrified fence in Kashmir to disappear - right?

Israel building walls against law is not justified by humanitarian or life arguments, that would mean Palestinians can attack Israel using the same arguments, to save their lives.

Kashmir is not the right analogy, is no law broken by the fence, is well inside Indian territory, Israel can the same by building the wall in its land rather than the palestinians land.
I hope you see the difference.

 

[bandit]

A

A wall is a defensive arrangement. And how can "Palestinians attack Israel using the same arguments to save lives?"

A wall on Palestinian territory.

If saving lives is the argument to seize palestinian territory an build walls and and settlements there, why cannot Palestinians attack and take some of Israels territory to save lives?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

A


A wall on Palestinian territory.

If saving lives is the argument to seize palestinian territory an build walls and and settlements there, why cannot Palestinians attack and take some of Israels territory to save lives?

Let's see -
1. "Palestine" is not the sole homeland of the Arabs. I am not aware how much land Israel wants, so can't exactly elaborate on the land issue. Palestine also belongs to the Jews. But since the Jews trickled in(kicked out) from the rest of the world to the area( there were plenty of native Jews as well), the Arabs attacked their settlements. The Jews attacked back. The cycle of violence has continued since then.

2. Israel is not looking for gaining the high moral ground. They only want to survive. In the small jungle they live in - there is only one way - to dominate the other. Surrounded by Arab countries on all sides, they have little choice other than being merciless. Let's face it - if Israel ceases to exist - no country in the world give them a place to live. All will condemn silently and cry as the Jews are killed en masse. So they trust no one but their own might. You may have a problem with conscience - they have bigger problems to worry about. Trust me,. friend - sitting in the safe India we can't understand the Israeli psyche.

Now as I see it - there is no chance of a peace between Israel and Palestine. It would be a miracle. Till the late 70s it was a possibility - when the Arabs were by and large socialists. Now with Hamas - its faith - there can never be peace till one side is annihilated. Of course unless there is a miracle. Fingers crossed.

 

[Solomon2]

‘Protecting the security fence is a daily fight,’ says commander of Tavor Battalion
By YAAKOV LAPPIN
01/24/2014 06:57

Palestinian attackers place gas tanks inside burning tires to lure soldiers to blasts along West Bank security barrier.

Soldiers and border policemen run past a section of the West Bank security barrier. Photo: REUTERS

Molotov cocktails, burning tires with exploding gas tanks hidden inside, slingshots that can break bones, shootings – these are the daily security challenges that the Home Front Command’s Tavor Battalion has faced for the past five months, as it defended the West Bank security barrier.

The battalion was deployed in a sector west of Ramallah, covering areas such as the Maccabim checkpoint, Budrus, Bil’in, Ni’lin and Kibya.

Lt.-Col. Dror Shaul, commander of the Tavor Battalion, told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday about the daily battle to protect the security barrier, and how his soldiers have thwarted Palestinians’ attempts to bomb, cut and burn the barrier.

The Tavor Battalion is the fourth and newest Home Front Command unit of its kind.

During peacetime, it is tasked with continuous security missions (patrols, counterterrorism, riot dispersal), and during wartime emergencies, it carries out search and rescue operations in missile explosion sites in Israel.

In the coming days, the battalion will be rotated away from the West Bank for a sixweek exercise, before taking up a new position along the Jordan Valley.

The area of the security barrier that the battalion has protected comes under frequent attack, including the planting of improvised explosives, Shaul said. “We manage to get to them before they can plant their devices on the fence.

We’ve neutralized dozens of explosive devices.”

Often, Palestinian attackers plant gas tanks inside tires and set them alight in an effort to lure soldiers to explosions.

“It’s a trap,” Shaul said.

“When we see a burning tire, we have stay back hundreds of meters. Recently, we were 150 meters away from one of these.

A very large gas tank blew up, and we felt the heat wave pass through our bodies. I can’t describe the sensation. The heat was very intense, and if this device would have been on the fence, it would have torn a part of it off.”

The battalion’s soldiers have responded frequently to attempts to cut the fence and infiltrate through it, he said.

Additionally, Shaul described rising numbers of riots over recent months in his sector.

“Levels of violence have risen,” he said. “Not dramatically – violence isn’t as high as it was 10 years ago. We’re not facing the same level of shootings as that period. But there is a local rise of violence, including rioting, rocks and slingshots – which present a bigger danger: If a soldier wearing a helmet is hit with a rock hurled with this slingshot, he can lose consciousness. It can break bones. I’ve had a few soldiers recently return to active duty after prolonged injuries from these attacks. This is fighting in every way – not a shooting battle, but we’re seeing a rise in things like Molotov cocktail attacks and other attacks on soldiers.”

More rocks are being thrown at Israeli motorists, and the number of security arrests have risen compared to a year or two ago, Shaul said. “Still, the situation is under control.

It hasn’t changed in a fundamental way. We’re seeing more lone attackers, local terror cells, but we’re not seeing an increase in the formation of organized terrorist infrastructures.”

The battalion, which is just a year-and-a-half old – one of the youngest in the IDF – has already seen its fair share of incidents. Two weeks ago, Shaul recalled, a company commander protecting the security fence came under a Molotov cocktail attack.

“Fortunately, the firebomb didn’t ignite, but the glass and fuel shattered against a fence the commander stood behind.

He recovered in two seconds, shooting and hitting the attacker in the leg, precisely in accordance with the rules of engagement. The attacker was injured and taken to a hospital,” Shaul said.

The battalion took a lead role in making security arrests during and after incidents, Shaul added.

Last year, it arrested a Palestinian gunman in Ni’lin who carried out a drive-by shooting on an Israeli vehicle. “We recovered the firearm and the vehicle used in the attack,” he said.

This week, the battalion broke up a Hamas terror cell in the area, arresting suspected members and seizing bombs in a security raid. “When you see these bombs and realize that they were supposed to be hurled at soldiers and civilians, you feel like you’ve saved lives,” Shaul said.

The unit’s soldiers also boarded a helicopter for a speedy deployment to a village in its sector, for an operation that remains classified.

“Had we gotten to the area through a village in vehicles... we’d be seen. So we landed in a helicopter, and blocked off roads for a certain operation,” the commander recalled.

He took pride in the fact that female combat soldiers play an equal role to men in his battalion.

“They are full partners in security operation, and play a key role in our achievements,” he said.

 

[iajj]

He took pride in the fact that female combat soldiers play an equal role to men in his battalion.

“They are full partners in security operation, and play a key role in our achievements,” he said.

gaah, women jews. so not only do they produce more jews to kill arabs with, but they also partake in killings themselves? i wish there was gender balance at concentration camps as well and that women jews' role was taken note of there, too

 

[Solomon2]

gaah, women jews. so not only do they produce more jews to kill arabs with, but they also partake in killings themselves? i wish there was gender balance at concentration camps as well and that women jews' role was taken note of there, too

Neither my grandfathers nor my grandmothers survived deportation to the camps, and all my aunts and uncles who remained in Europe were slain as well. Is that enough "gender balance" for you?

 

[iajj]

Neither my grandfathers nor my grandmothers survived deportation to the camps, and all my aunts and uncles who remained in Europe were slain as well. Is that enough "gender balance" for you?

luckily, my grandparents and aunts and uncles survived wartime occupation - that was lucky for some jews as well because they helped quite a number of them.

and decades later, some darned jew consul suggested to make a monument to jew-helpers and put their stories in children's textbooks...IN MY TOWN, IN MY COUNTRY!

to this i say: **** THE JEWS! their entire ethics, their entire worldview are so distorted, so self-serving, so self-obsessed, so secluded from the norms of others that they deserve to be banished from the family of nations and excluded from humanity. they deserve to be exterminated! penis jews, womb jews, wrinkled jews, small jews, all of them!

 

[Solomon2]

luckily, my grandparents and aunts and uncles survived wartime occupation - that was lucky for some jews as well because they helped quite a number of them. and decades later, some darned jew consul suggested to make a monument to jew-helpers and put their stories in children's textbooks...IN MY TOWN, IN MY COUNTRY!

Are you an Albanian? I know Jews saved by Albanian Muslims. The same Jews who were saved proposed a monument to the Muslims who risked their lives to help them. I must give them a call and see how their efforts are going. I understand some Jews were saved from the Nazis in North Africa as well, but I don't know any of those.

...THE JEWS! their entire ethics, their entire worldview are so distorted, so self-serving, so self-obsessed, so secluded from the norms of others -

How healthy the "norms" of the Muslim world are you can see for yourself. The "norms" of most European countries incorporate the old Christian failing of forgiving people for crimes committed against third parties; that is, if you steal my wallet and kill me a Christian European might happily take your money and rationalize not throwing you in jail by invoking some form of "Christian forgiveness." That this approach empowers the entrenched and powerful and the expense of justice for the ordinary citizen is one of the factors driving anti-Semitism at the political level.

 

[-SINAN-]

@Solomon2 this guy is the ultimate troll. Don't bother yourself.

 

[Solomon2]

@Solomon2 this guy is the ultimate troll. Don't bother yourself.

Sinan, you're a Turk and a comparatively reasonable guy. @iajj burns inside; if you believe there are many Muslims who burn inside too then he speaks for them. (And considering the horrible events in Syria, one can no longer assume talk endorsing cannibalism is mere joshing.)

 

[iajj]

Are you an Albanian? I know Jews saved by Albanian Muslims. The same Jews who were saved proposed a monument to the Muslims who risked their lives to help them. I must give them a call and see how their efforts are going.

i don't give a shit about monuments. i care only about locations. the fact that you couldn't comprehend the source of my complaints speaks to jews' self-illusion and a jew ethics growing out of your rootlessness and seclusion from normal and normative human contact.

 

[-SINAN-]

Sinan, you're a Turk and a comparatively reasonable guy. @iajj burns inside; if you believe there are many Muslims who burn inside too then he speaks for them. (And considering the horrible events in Syria, one can no longer assume talk endorsing cannibalism is mere joshing.)

Lol, mate. He is chinese, he shouldn't talk for muslims.

He hates Turks and Jewish people, maybe some more along them i don't know.

 

[Ayush]

Are you an Albanian? I know Jews saved by Albanian Muslims. The same Jews who were saved proposed a monument to the Muslims who risked their lives to help them. I must give them a call and see how their efforts are going. I understand some Jews were saved from the Nazis in North Africa as well, but I don't know any of those.

How healthy the "norms" of the Muslim world are you can see for yourself. The "norms" of most European countries incorporate the old Christian failing of forgiving people for crimes committed against third parties; that is, if you steal my wallet and kill me a Christian European might happily take your money and rationalize not throwing you in jail by invoking some form of "Christian forgiveness." That this approach empowers the entrenched and powerful and the expense of justice for the ordinary citizen is one of the factors driving anti-Semitism at the political level.

he used to have a chinese flag earlier.