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Israelli oppression of an occupied people

Prophet Muhammad led the war against jew of Khyber

We should always put this in context. We were fighting specific tribes which happened to be Jewish. It does not mean that there is a perpetual battle against all Jews forever.

People get to know hatred for Jews and hate them. Jews get to see the hatred they hate Muslims and the cycle goes on without an end. And one day we end up killing each other much more.....

Agree.

The violence can stop once Muslim mullahs educate their people that Islam is not against Jews and the Prophet's battles against Jews were specific battle scenarios, not a blanket condemnation of all Jews.

Similarly, Jewish rabbis need to stop telling their people that God has reserved that piece of land forever for the Jews through Abraham's Convenant.
 
We should always put this in context. We were fighting specific tribes which happened to be Jewish. It does not mean that there is a perpetual battle against all Jews forever.

It was in reply to D's statement and nothing more.
But realistically speaking, if we look at eschatology
from standpoint of Christianity, Judias & Islam then
what lies ahead in nothing but war. It is just that
people dont really talk about it.
 
We should always put this in context. We were fighting specific tribes which happened to be Jewish. It does not mean that there is a perpetual battle against all Jews forever.



Agree.

The violence can stop once Muslim mullahs educate their people that Islam is not against Jews and the Prophet's battles against Jews were specific battle scenarios, not a blanket condemnation of all Jews.

Similarly, Jewish rabbis need to stop telling their people that God has reserved that piece of land forever for the Jews through Abraham's Convenant.

One of the major problem is there is no central religious authority which could speak for the behalf of a religion..... Any person can go ahead and start preaching anything or any interpretation of religious text on the name of religion. And people are bound to follow it based on the charisma of the speaker.

I dont think that there is any religon in the world which says to kill people. Every religion teaches peace.
 
It was in reply to D's statement and nothing more.
But realistically speaking, if we look at eschatology
from standpoint of Christianity, Judias & Islam then
what lies ahead in nothing but war. It is just that
people dont really talk about it.

yes the way things are moving we are definetly going for a war. But it is also upto us that we go for it or not. We can preach peace to our children or we can preach war to our children. Its totally our teachings what will make the world of tomorrow.
 
in islam if some one hurt you then its up to you what you want to reply him forgive or hurt in same sense and i never compromise on islamic rulse and specialy to jewish becaus they are enemys of islam in all conditions

Buddy for people like you .....

Jews are the enemies of Islam

Christians are the enemies of Islam

Hindus are the enemies of Islam

Islam is the one true religion and hates no one ..... it just "helps them accept" the one true religion.

Its caled "persecution complex" ..... a psychiatric disorder, with collective yet selective ghetto mentality socio-religious separatist origins that foster only bigotry and hate and narrow mindedness.

Get out of it. Better for all of us.

Cheers, Doc
 
muse, your points are misplaced for several reasons, let me explain why.


1. if a jewish settler in israel throws alcohol on a muslim womens face during ramzan then please feel free to tell me - what other way is their to interpret this action?

or let me put it to you in another way you might be more symathetic to, if a muslim man in pakistan throws a beef burger at a pious looking hindu then what way would you interpet that?

would that be so incidental aswell? - ofcourse not.

not only that, its israel, more or less everything has religious a religious colouration to it esp. when involved with muslims.



2. what the heck is a pakrab?

if your wider point it that pakistani's should be more concerned with domestic issues then i agree with you, but instead you sound like a xenophobic indian making fun out of pakistani's, i have heard similar things from them aswell, furthermore you talk about bigotry, well everyone seems to be exempt from bigotry except pakistani's who you have abused multiple times!!

so what do you mean by that term?



3. not every action is similar - sometimes there are social, political, religious, ethnic reasons or a bit of all for things happening, you need to take each instance on its own and not conflate two seperate instances as the same issue, this is what you are doing.



4. i am interested to know that why one cannot discuss this issue during ramzan, where or who says we cannot talk about such things or express emotion diring ramzan?


and on the same token, why are you still discussing this and expressing your emotions strongly during ramzan?

if you inspire to be this decent person during ramzan then you should ignore this thread, should you not?



5. people generally *not always) unfortunately identify with different things - you are expressing this truth in an unproductive way.

americans hardly give a second look to the tens of thousands innocent iraqi/afghans dead but still heavily mourn the 3000 lost in 9/11, why do you think that is?

just because one is expressing sympathy for one group/event/set of people DOES NOT mean they automatically approve of the death of others.




you are making some ridiculous assumptions, some as bigoted as those you detest apparently detest.


if you want, start a seperate thread and discuss the issue, lets see how it goes....
 
No picture posting - none!


muse, your points are misplaced for several reasons, let me explain why.


1. if a jewish settler in israel throws alcohol on a muslim womens face during ramzan then please feel free to tell me - what other way is their to interpret this action?

or let me put it to you in another way you might be more symathetic to, if a muslim man in pakistan throws a beef burger at a pious looking hindu then what way would you interpet that?

would that be so incidental aswell? - ofcourse not.

not only that, its israel, more or less everything has religious a religious colouration to it esp. when involved with muslims.



2. what the heck is a pakrab?

if your wider point it that pakistani's should be more concerned with domestic issues then i agree with you, but instead you sound like a xenophobic indian making fun out of pakistani's, i have heard similar things from them aswell, furthermore you talk about bigotry, well everyone seems to be exempt from bigotry except pakistani's who you have abused multiple times!!

so what do you mean by that term?



3. not every action is similar - sometimes there are social, political, religious, ethnic reasons or a bit of all for things happening, you need to take each instance on its own and not conflate two seperate instances as the same issue, this is what you are doing.



4. i am interested to know that why one cannot discuss this issue during ramzan, where or who says we cannot talk about such things or express emotion diring ramzan?


and on the same token, why are you still discussing this and expressing your emotions strongly during ramzan?

if you inspire to be this decent person during ramzan then you should ignore this thread, should you not?



5. people generally *not always) unfortunately identify with different things - you are expressing this truth in an unproductive way.

americans hardly give a second look to the tens of thousands innocent iraqi/afghans dead but still heavily mourn the 3000 lost in 9/11, why do you think that is?

just because one is expressing sympathy for one group/event/set of people DOES NOT mean they automatically approve of the death of others.


you are making some ridiculous assumptions, some as bigoted as those you detest apparently detest.


if you want, start a seperate thread and discuss the issue, lets see how it goes....
 
r3alist


Excellent post - let me set it straight:

1. What we have in the picture is delinquent doing what a delinquent does. Now to give it a religious color seems to me to be fishing for an emotional response and in particular to evoke religious hatred. Secondly the "snap shot" offer us no context -- in fact the only context some have been ready to buy into is just as you have offered, a "Jew", not a delinquent, but a Jew - it's like saying that at a police station you see a criminal being processed and you say, a "black" criminal.

2. What is a Pakrab? -- Just as there are "Chimerica" and "Chindia" words that describe a concept, in this case a Chinese and American economic hegemony and Chinese Indian economic hegemony - a Pakrab is a Pakistani who imagines himself an Arab. Now, it's all fine to imagine one's self as anything one may want, just as it is fine to describe it. So that's what a Pakrab is.

3.
not every action is similar - sometimes there are social, political, religious, ethnic reasons or a bit of all for things happening, you need to take each instance on its own and not conflate two separate instances as the same issue, this is what you are doing

I'm delighted you can see this and wonder why you have chosen to ignore this when describing the "snap shot"?? It would be interesting to read your explanation

4. Indeed it ought to be "discussed" whenever the opportunity arises, however; the "snap shot came with the posters comments that it was sad that this was happening during Ramadan - to which I added why was it not sad or at least not sad enough for the Chose to comment on the suicide bombings and terror attacks on masajid by Muslims?? Would you say evoking religious hatred is the same as discussion?? It would be interesting to read your comments about that as well.

5.
people generally *not always) unfortunately identify with different things - you are expressing this truth in an unproductive way.

Quite possibly, I did not judge it as positive or negative but as good and bad - What was going on was the spreading of hatred, in particular of religious hatred - now that is OK for some, I take exception to it and I particularly take exception to it when Ramadan is used to further a political and hateful point of view.
 
muse, before the thread got locked i also meant to add this remark








one final point i forgot to add, you seem to have an issue with posting real graphic pictures.

does that apply to all issues or only this issue?

what is more offfensive, the picture, the action or the fact that someone is posting it during ramzan?

your will have noted by not that your stance on this only seems to beg more questions.



you should understand that many many pakistani's were hurt by the flogging of a girl by the taliban, many of the same people will be hurt by this ASWELL, is that so hard to accept?
 
:what: Muse i feel you are also falling in trap of fake egoistic notions which the hardliners, as well as neo-liberals harbour in their head.


Frankly i feel you are also going in that direction with your extreme views about one topic.
 
thank you for starting the thread, i was thinking of doing the same :)


Now to give it a religious color seems to me to be fishing for an emotional response and in particular to evoke religious hatred.

to me there was no religious colour imputed, it was explicitly there was it not?

i assume you live in the uk, now imagine if that happened in the uk, how would the police treat it? it would be a religiously motivated crime would it not?


Secondly the "snap shot" offer us no context -- in fact the only context some have been ready to buy into is just as you have offered

this is true, there is no larger context, but there are certain details that hint to something, you can accuse me of being simplistic but this is israel, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then.....


, a "Jew", not a delinquent, but a Jew - it's like saying that at a police station you see a criminal being processed and you say, a "black" criminal.


true again, but then read something in the british press, almost every crime whether it be rape, theft, murder or fraud is attributed the muslim epithet if it can be squeezed in, in that regard a atmosphere of hostility has been created to engage in a tit for tat, not the most productive thing but i can see where it stems from and i would attack both cases of jew and muslim, but it only ever seems to be muslim.


was bernie madhoff described as the fraudulent jew billionaire?

ask the same question if it happened to be a muslim billionaire.

how does one control or respond such a bias? many respond with a tit for tat.

i also note that you do not hesitate in quantifying peoples actions here as those of religious extremism and nothing else, but take issue with this jew scenario, so there exists a contradiction.


also note another point, you are on a defence forum, this is a very specific kind of forum that will attract a person with a specific interest, its par for the course to have somewhat biased propagandised news, this is the case for alot of similar forums.



a Pakrab is a Pakistani who imagines himself an Arab. Now, it's all fine to imagine one's self as anything one may want, just as it is fine to describe it. So that's what a Pakrab is.

i am still confused as to what criteria qualify one as imagining oneself as an arab?

is it just about taking a stance regarding israel?

I'm delighted you can see this and wonder why you have chosen to ignore this when describing the "snap shot"?? It would be interesting to read your explanation



because from my estimation there is an enormous amount of hatred between jews/arabs in israel and there have been many many isolated cases of jews attacking arabs in israel that its hard not to think along those lines, plus i find it dubious to accept that the person did not know that throwing wine at a muslim women would cause a specific type of offence, so in a sense i am privvy to more than a snapshot, i refer you back to the scenario of a muslim attacking a hindu.



4. Indeed it ought to be "discussed" whenever the opportunity arises, however; the "snap shot came with the posters comments that it was sad that this was happening during Ramadan - to which I added why was it not sad or at least not sad enough for the Chose to comment on the suicide bombings and terror attacks on masajid by Muslims?? Would you say evoking religious hatred is the same as discussion?? It would be interesting to read your comments about that as well.

well firstly you are assuming that the poster who made the reference about ramzan actually has any sympathies with the said suicide bombers, i dont know, do you?

secondly, i dont see the issue in relating to a women being abused during ramzan, i am not saying it automatically carries extra weight or outrage but i dont see the big deal, i feel for her aswell, because i have a mother, aunties, sisters fasting and i know how that would hurt them.


Quite possibly, I did not judge it as positive or negative but as good and bad - What was going on was the spreading of hatred, in particular of religious hatred - now that is OK for some, I take exception to it and I particularly take exception to it when Ramadan is used to further a political and hateful point of view.

true enough, there is an element of religious hatred, but then you should take the issue up with specific posters rather than blaze comments about large chunks of people on here which provoke a hostile response in return.

i dont agree its immediately hateful with bringing the ramzan twist into it, that might be how some people relate to it.
 
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Jana

I would like it better if yoiu don't use words like "I feel" when you are addressing a serious topic, you are a serious person and you "think" - so elaborate, after all what's the point of making charges, neoliberal, xyz - tell me what you think if the wrong direction and more imoportantly why you think it's wrong.
 
All the substandard posts have been taken care of. Infractions and Bans will be issued to members responsible for turning this thread into a mudslinging contest.
 
Jana

I would like it better if yoiu don't use words like "I feel" when you are addressing a serious topic, you are a serious person and you "think" - so elaborate, after all what's the point of making charges, neoliberal, xyz - tell me what you think if the wrong direction and more imoportantly why you think it's wrong.

I used the word feel or even if i use the word "I think" it means i am giving room to others to differe with me. And i mean it i always am willing to accept yours and others' right to differ with me :)


secondly i am not making charges viz viz neo-liberals or otherwise, i am just pointing out the fact there are two sides usually which are dominent when we discuss religion of faith 1. Conservative 2. Neo-liberal and there is the thrid one which is a balanced one and that is 3. Moderate.


Now the problem is the neo-liberals do not believe in giving conservatives the right to think or express whatever they want to think similarly the conservatives do not believe in giving neo-liberals the right to think or express what they want to.

Reading your posts about many issues where you somehow one way or the other way try to link it with religion more specifically with Islam and then you call for banning all those members who differ with your view and advocate Islamic teachings (the real one not the self-imposed ones) you call them extremists and press the admins for banning them.


I feel, this does not place you in the third catogary.
 
r3

to me there was no religious colour imputed, it was explicitly there was it not?

The caption was says "Jewish man.." and you say there was no religious color to it? hmm How about "Muslim woman" did that offer religious color?? I don't think you are being open to that possiblity, it's like ignoring a 800lbs gorilla in the room.

almost every crime whether it be rape, theft, murder or fraud is attributed the muslim epithet if it can be squeezed in, in that regard a atmosphere of hostility has been created to engage in a tit for tat, not the most productive thing but i can see where it stems from and i would attack both cases of jew and muslim, but it only ever seems to be muslim
.

We discussed that and explained that equations are dangerous and misleading - we said good is not the equal of bad , it is it's opposite, something a good number of Pakistanis members simply refuse to acknowledge - it will be a mystery to me as to why something so obvious should cause them so much dificulty.

It is more than understandable that Muslims on a daily basis feel and generally are discriminated against, because of the security policies enacted after the takfiri attacks of 9/11 and the Madrid and London bombings --- but look, place the blame for this where it belongs and it belongs on the takfiri, doesn't it?? If you and I were in Pakistan wearing chaddars and approached police or soldiers, what would be their response? What is the response of security personnel when a Burkha approaches them?? You and I and all of us know all too well what the response is -- so put the blame where it belongs on the takfiri, not on people simply trying to do their best to be safe - sure you and I have feelings but so does the complete stranger who approaches us and has kids waiting for him or her at home.

A pakrab is a Pakistani who "identifies" rather strongly with an arab identity, whether imagined or otherwise.


I'm delighted you can see this and wonder why you have chosen to ignore this when describing the "snap shot"?? It would be interesting to read your explanation


because from my estimation there is an enormous amount of hatred between jews/arabs in israel and there have been many many isolated cases of jews attacking arabs in israel that its hard not to think along those lines, plus i find it dubious to accept that the person did not know that throwing wine at a muslim wine would cause a specific type of offence, so in a sense i am privvy to more than a snapshot, i refer you back to the scenario of a muslim attacking a hindu

Look we all have baggage, of every kind, but ought we go about promoting religious hatred? It will be claimed, in a butter will not melt in that mouth, way that far from provoking religious hatred, merely the suffering of a particular group was being highlighted - indeed what was being done was exactly the opposite, the victimization of one religious group at the hgands of another was editorialized - I put it you that that was both dishonest and dangerous - how much more hatred do we really need? and Israeli also come to the forum, and we want and should want more of them to come and discuss - but if you going about fanning hate, brother man, it's a net loser - like that beetles song, "so you say you want a revolution"


Oh the pictures -- well, because they are a "snap shot" they don't allow for a beginning middle and end, no context - it's a very limited view.
 

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