Israelli oppression of an occupied people

[Beskar]

But religion is the core reason for the conflict -- at least from the Jewish side. They justify their exclusive claim to the land because of Abraham's Covenant.

Yes, I agree with that. That's exactly why I said:

The hate for the religion is there, true, but we must also understand the reasons why such hate crimes take place in the first place. A greater ideology is to be blamed for such an act, not just religion.

The Zionist ideology in Israel is responsible for promoting religious hate amongst their newer generation so that there's always a conflict going on to justify their occupation. Systematically, they've erased all the morals and ethics from the Israeli population. Recently, they've introduced special "Rabbi" soldiers and leaders in their army, making sure there is more than enough religious presence amongst the soldiers in the Israeli army.

BBC NEWS | Programmes | Newsnight | The rise of Israel's military rabbis

Israel's army is changing. Once proudly secular, its combat units are now filling with those who believe Israel's wars are "God's wars".

Military rabbis are becoming more powerful. Trained in warfare as well as religion, new army regulations mean they are now part of a military elite.

They graduate from officer's school and operate closely with military commanders. One of their main duties is to boost soldiers' morale and drive, even on the front line.

This has caused quite some controversy in Israel. Should military motivation come from men of God, or from a belief in the state of Israel and keeping it safe?

The military rabbis rose to prominence during Israel's invasion of Gaza earlier this year.

Some of their activities raised troubling questions about political-religious influence in the military.

I believe this "Ideology" goes beyond Judaism or Islam. Before the creation of Israel, Jews and Muslims lived together peacefully for centuries. But it's only now that the people have been manipulated to such a degree that they keep using religion as a scapegoat to justify their occupation and hate for the people of Palestine.

 

[Coolyo]

Ina Lillahi wa Ina Lillah!

We need Muslim unity and brotherhood!

Tyranny can only last for so long! Insha Allah, America and it's Zionist masters will soon fail, Insha Allah!

PS: I think this "Muse" and "Alirules" guy are fakers!

The CIA, Zionists, and their TOOLS the Indian Fascists are doing all that they can to cause fitna and problems for Pakistan, not only in real life, but also on the internet!

 

[Developereo]

The Zionist ideology in Israel is responsible for promoting religious hate amongst their newer generation so that there's always a conflict going on to justify their occupation.

Agree, and we can't defeat them militarily. Here's what I said in another thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...re-al-jazeera-correspondent-3.html#post479588

The way to fight and defeat Israel is not through bullets, but through the media. This is how they came into being and have remained powerful. This is the only way they will go.

The Zionists dominate the Western media, and we should fight them in the media. Al-Jazeera is good for the Muslim world, but it is too obvious. We need to be more subtle like the Zionists. Use Western media channels with Western people to promote our message.

The Arabs have the money. They should buy Western media companies (indirectly, through innocuous intermediaries) and, slowly but surely, install pro-Muslim, anti-Israel Western people in positions of power within those organizations. This is exactly what the Zionists have done. We just need to do the same for our cause.

Media manipulation is a delicate art and Westerners are experts at it. We Muslims are novices.

 

[NEHA]

so sad....what can i do.

 

[Al-zakir]

This is really sad.................Esp. during the month of Ramadan.

This is child play compare to zionist aggression against innocent muslims in their own land. Threre isn't much can be done about them unless Allah rescue them. Isalmic world neither have the capability nor courage to rescue them from Israeli atrocity.

We have worthless OIC nations with money, man power, resource and brain yet don't have a powerful military comprise with 57 muslims nations. WHY????

 

[TruthSeeker]

If you track back to the source of the photo (link below), it comes from a New York Times slide show "entitled "Fervent Believers", slide #6. The slide show shows various images of Israeli settlers meant to convey their views. The slide show goes with an article also linked below. I have excerpted a few paragraphs from the article. So, the photo is not photoshopped unless the NYT did it and the caption has the imprimatur of the NYT. [TS]

Fervent Believers - The New York Times > World > Slide Show > Slide 6 of 10

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/world/middleeast/14settlers.html?_r=1

Resolve of West Bank Settlers May Have Limits

By ETHAN BRONNER and ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: September 13, 2009

HAVAT GILAD, West Bank — Of the hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers in the West Bank, those who live in unauthorized hilltop outposts like this one, a hardscrabble unpaved collection of 20 trailers, are considered the most dangerous.

The second in a series exploring Israeli settlements in the West Bank and their prospects under any peace agreement.

Fervent Believers Slide Show [This is where the wine tossing photo comes from, TS]

They are fervent believers that there is a divine plan requiring them to hold this land. With many of them armed and all of them furious over the 2005 withdrawal of Jews from Gaza and four West Bank settlements, they live by the slogan: “Never forget! Never forgive!” The building of a Palestinian state would require them to move, and Israelis fear that any attempt to force them out could cause a bloody internal clash.

 

[dabong1]

The way to fight and defeat Israel is not through bullets, but through the media. This is how they came into being and have remained powerful. This is the only way they will go.

The Zionists dominate the Western media, and we should fight them in the media. Al-Jazeera is good for the Muslim world, but it is too obvious. We need to be more subtle like the Zionists. Use Western media channels with Western people to promote our message.

The Arabs have the money. They should buy Western media companies (indirectly, through innocuous intermediaries) and, slowly but surely, install pro-Muslim, anti-Israel Western people in positions of power within those organizations. This is exactly what the Zionists have done. We just need to do the same for our cause.

Media manipulation is a delicate art and Westerners are experts at it. We Muslims are novices.

I think it was george galloway that asked the same question to an arab prince and was told that it was a unspoken rule that the arabs where not allowed to buy into the media.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ina Lillahi wa Ina Lillah!

We need Muslim unity and brotherhood!

Tyranny can only last for so long! Insha Allah, America and it's Zionist masters will soon fail, Insha Allah!

PS: I think this "Muse" and "Alirules" guy are fakers!

The CIA, Zionists, and their TOOLS the Indian Fascists are doing all that they can to cause fitna and problems for Pakistan, not only in real life, but also on the internet!

I do not know who Alirulesall is, but I can assure you that Muse is nothing but an ardent Pakistani nationalist who has nothing but the best interests of Pakistan at heart and strongly believes in a Pakistan where religious interpretations of one particular group - be it Sunni or Shia (and even within those larger sects there are differences amongst the various sub-sects) - do not dominate through the government and are imposed upon all Pakistanis.

He strongly believes in a Pakistan where all are treated equally, respected equally and have equal opportunity Sunni, Shia, Ahmedi, Hindu and Christian.

He strongly believes in a Pakistan where the State does not have to obtain the sanction of Mullahs to reform discriminatory and repressive laws related to divorce, blasphemy and rape, but instead does what is self evidently right and true in the interests of upholding principles of equality, justice and non-discrimination.

He is perhaps somewhat frustrated that there is so little interest and so little outrage expressed from our fellow Pakistanis when incidents of violence and discrimination against Christians and other minorities and even Muslims (Taliban and the other sectarian organizations) are posted in the forum.

I do think that part of the reason many of us don't react is that we have a gut reaction that such news is deliberately posted by non-Pakistanis with an agenda to malign Pakistan - so rather than condemn what we know occurs, even if we believe it to occur infrequently, we ignore it, or we try to malign the intentions of the poster and point to the flaws that exist in the posters nation, as if that is somehow justification for what occurs in our nation.

Ironically, the references to the Taliban and AQ in this and another thread sort of fall in the same category as the 'head in the sand' attitude about discrimination and atrocities against minorities and other Muslims in Pakistan that I mentioned above.

We need to move beyond that - condemn equally that which is wrong in our nation and in another. If atrocities against one set of innocents in Palestine is wrong, then so are atrocities against another set of innocent Israelis (blowing up children in school buses or people in cafe's), and so are the discriminatory attitudes against Christians, Hindus and Ahmedis, no matter how infrequently or frequently one thinks they occur.

Finally, I would advise everyone to refrain from personal attacks and labelling people as 'non-Pakistani' or 'non-Muslim' - just because someone has a difference of opinion does not automatically make them an Indian or non-Muslim in disguise.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Threads merged and title changed, hopefully to something a bit more acceptable and less 'generalizing'.

 

[Durran3]

I've said this a hundred times on these boards and will say it again, that if you care so much about the Palestinian outcry you than need to do the same for the Muslims of Darfur who were being massacred by Arab tribes with more than 400,000 dead. A complete genocide is at hand and no one cares. You than need to raise your voice for everyone that is oppressed and not show your double sided face.

Those who are sympathizing with the Palestinians (which is fair enough) should than have the ability to sympathize for those hundreds of people who Saddam Hussein killed under his dictatorship. Where were the outcrys for the Muslim women who were living worse than animals under the Taliban regime? Why are there no rally's for minority rights inside Pakistan? Jamat-e-Islami loves to rally over everything thats against Israel and America but when was the last time they rallied for technology, education, healthcare, human rights?

Why should we give a dam about other Arab countries when they don't give a dam about Kashmir? Its not our problem, the only countries that we can help and should help are Iran and Afghanistan simply because of our geo-political interests. Its very annoying and frustrating to see people who like to rally over religion with no logical explanation. Why didn't you cry when the Turks bombed the Kurds just recently? Seriously, get over it and fix the mess thats in our home first

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I've said this a hundred times on these boards and will say it again, that if you care so much about the Palestinian outcry you than need to do the same for the Muslims of Darfur who were being massacred by Arab tribes with more than 400,000 dead. A complete genocide is at hand and no one cares. You than need to raise your voice for everyone that is oppressed and not show your double sided face.

Those who are sympathizing with the Palestinians (which is fair enough) should than have the ability to sympathize for those hundreds of people who Saddam Hussein killed under his dictatorship. Where were the outcrys for the Muslim women who were living worse than animals under the Taliban regime? Why are there no rally's for minority rights inside Pakistan? Jamat-e-Islami loves to rally over everything thats against Israel and America but when was the last time they rallied for technology, education, healthcare, human rights?

Why should we give a dam about other Arab countries when they don't give a dam about Kashmir? Its not our problem, the only countries that we can help and should help are Iran and Afghanistan simply because of our geo-political interests. Its very annoying and frustrating to see people who like to rally over religion with no logical explanation. Why didn't you cry when the Turks bombed the Kurds just recently? Seriously, get over it and fix the mess thats in our home first

All that is fine Durran, but I could also argue that while I have heard you voice your anger about the Taliban, aside from this post, I have never heard you voice your anger about the atrocities against the Palestinians, people of Darfur, the Kurds or anyone else.

Should I then assume that you have double standards because I do not see you devoting equal attention to those other causes?

The point is this - don't condemn people for raising these issues about the occupation of the Palestinians unless you know for a fact that they condone such atrocities against the people of Darfur, Iraqis, Pakistanis, Kashmiris etc.

We all have a limited amount of time we devote to issues - one just cannot devote an equal amount of attention to every single issue. And for many people the Palestinian issue, for a variety of reasons, including perhaps because of how blatantly obvious the injustice and occupation is, and how long it has festered and how it has festered because of the double standards and support of the West for Israel (which is interpreted by many as a civilizational anti-Muslim struggle), is an easy choice to vocalize about.

But again, unless someone is clearly hypocritical about these things (and one or two names do come to mind) there is no reason to berate people for raising and condemning the issue of Israeli occupation and atrocities.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Threads merged and title changed, hopefully to something a bit more acceptable and less 'generalizing'.

Thats sux but whatever. I recommend you be appointed as a mod on JTF.ORG. They need serious mental help ! The thing though is that
whether you use "jew" or "israel', it dont matter. It would be seen as anti-semitic either way so basically if you criticize a jewish person or the state of Israel , it is the same. Just watch Mr Trafficant's interview with Greta on fox.

I would like to see some thread title changed on a bunch of western forum but we know it is not going to happen! Only on DPK! Congratulations...........

 

[Durran3]

All that is fine Durran, but I could also argue that while I have heard you voice your anger about the Taliban, aside from this post, I have never heard you voice your anger about the atrocities against the Palestinians, people of Darfur, the Kurds or anyone else.

That is not entirely true, I have many times clearly highlighted on what I believe the Palestinians need to do and what Israel needs to stop doing. I am also the only person on PDF that has been crying about Darfur for a very long time, more than anyone else here and anyone that has actually read my posts knows this. In fact back in University I coordinated an event and we managed to raise close to 7000 dollars which we all donated to UNICEF while creating awareness about the Genocide as well.

Here i have clearly highlighted what i believe needs to be done from both sides. I suggest you read the whole conversation. I have clearly mentioned Darfur there as well and this post is from 06-03-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-pakistan-recognize-israel-12.html#post391093

Here is another post about Kashmir, i suggest you read some parts of this thread 06-11-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...mir-against-indian-atrocities.html#post397820

Here is a thread where i raised the issue of Guantanamo

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...se-muslims-now-living-bermuda.html#post400316

Here is another thread where i used brought up Darfur Again and my argument against Wahabism, i suggest you read the full thread if you have time, you don't have to though. 07-06-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/29366-saudis-give-nod-israeli-raid-iran-6.html#post418086

Here is another post 07-30-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...-hinduvata-leaders-their-bs-7.html#post438333

http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...-hinduvata-leaders-their-bs-8.html#post438956

Same old issue of Israel and Palestine again and again where I mentioned Darfur for a 100th time.. 08-17-2009

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-pakistan-recognize-israel-16.html#post453005

--------------

My argument is not that i don't sympathize with them, my argument is that instead of trying to pick up arms for people around the world maybe we need to look at what our problems are. If you think you can help a few people in Palestine, Darfur or some place than do so, no one is stopping you. I did what i could to help maybe a few people of Darfur by donating some charity that we raised and like you said you have to select and use your limited time.

The problem with this argument is that people sometimes have so much hatred that they are willing to take up arms for something that is not in their interest and that is where I believe the problem lies. If you think you can help by all means go ahead but don't drag the country into a confrontation that seems unnecessary for us simply because of religion.

 

[nightcrawler]

This thread oh man one of the most controversial I have seen.
The real thing is that this isnt about religion this iis about nationalism. remember the post 70s Israeli-Iranian relation. Its all about defence sales & nothing else!!

Had Pakistan being rich like the Sauds & wanna buy weapons Israel will be sure to invite PAK with regards

 

[Developereo]

Israelis fear that any attempt to force them out could cause a bloody internal clash.

That is just the tip of the iceberg.

The Arab governments are rightly accused of prologing the Palestinian conflict to deflect attention away from their own domestic problems, but the Israelis are playing the same game.

There are simmering ethnic conflicts within Israel between the Ashkenazi (European), Sephardic (Middle Eastern) and Ethiopean Jews. I am not saying Israel would break apart in a civil war, but there are tensions which are kept in check as long as there is a common enemy.

Why should we give a dam about other Arab countries when they don't give a dam about Kashmir?

The Palestinians have been abandoned by just about everybody except, ironically, Iran. The Arab governments only make silly noises to placate their people but have neither the will, nor the capacity to help them.

I do agree with your point that there is no universal Muslim concern about other Muslim sufferings. Most Muslims probably don't even know about the ethnic Malay Muslims being persecuted in southern Thailand, or the Burmese Muslims forced to convert by the military authorities.