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Now I would like to put a piece here from a Palestinian writer. But remember one thing that if we want to be supporters of Palestinians we must fight for the destruction of some Arab countries that are complicit namely Saudi and their leaders. Yes lets be consistent then when we ask for the destruction of Israel lets ask for the destruction of Saudi and other dictators who are assisting in the killings of Muslim Arabs and we should side with Iran


Excuse Me, But Israel Has No Right To Exist

By Sharmine Narwani - Thu, 2012-05-17 21:46- The Sandbox

The phrase “right to exist” entered my consciousness in the 1990s just as the concept of the two-state solution became part of our collective lexicon. In any debate at university, when a Zionist was out of arguments, those three magic words were invoked to shut down the conversation with an outraged, “are you saying Israel doesn’t have the right to exist??”

Of course you couldn’t challenge Israel’s right to exist – that was like saying you were negating a fundamental Jewish right to have…rights, with all manner of Holocaust guilt thrown in for effect.

Except of course the Holocaust is not my fault – or that of Palestinians. The cold-blooded program of ethnically cleansing Europe of its Jewish population has been so callously and opportunistically utilized to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arab nation, that it leaves me utterly unmoved. I have even caught myself – shock - rolling my eyes when I hear Holocaust and Israel in the same sentence.

What moves me instead in this post-two-state era, is the sheer audacity of Israel even existing.

What a fantastical idea, this notion that a bunch of rank outsiders from another continent could appropriate an existing, populated nation for themselves – and convince the “global community” that it was the moral thing to do. I’d laugh at the chutzpah if this wasn’t so serious.

Even more brazen is the mass ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Palestinian population by persecuted Jews, newly arrived from their own experience of being ethnically cleansed.

But what is truly frightening is the psychological manipulation of the masses into believing that Palestinians are somehow dangerous – “terrorists” intent on “driving Jews into the sea.” As someone who makes a living through words, I find the use of language in creating perceptions to be intriguing. This practice – often termed “public diplomacy” has become an essential tool in the world of geopolitics. Words, after all, are the building blocks of our psychology.

Take, for example, the way we have come to view the Palestinian-Israeli “dispute” and any resolution of this enduring conflict. And here I borrow liberally from a previous article of mine…

The United States and Israel have created the global discourse on this issue, setting stringent parameters that grow increasingly narrow regarding the content and direction of this debate. Anything discussed outside the set parameters has, until recently, widely been viewed as unrealistic, unproductive and even subversive.

Participation in the debate is limited only to those who prescribe to its main tenets: the acceptance of Israel, its regional hegemony and its qualitative military edge; acceptance of the shaky logic upon which the Jewish state's claim to Palestine is based; and acceptance of the inclusion and exclusion of certain regional parties, movements and governments in any solution to the conflict.


Words like dove, hawk, militant, extremist, moderates, terrorists, Islamo-fascists, rejectionists, existential threat, holocaust-denier, mad mullah determine the participation of solution partners -- and are capable of instantly excluding others.

Then there is the language that preserves "Israel's Right To Exist" unquestioningly: anything that invokes the Holocaust, anti-Semitism and the myths about historic Jewish rights to the land bequeathed to them by the Almighty – as though God was in the real-estate business. This language seeks not only to ensure that a Jewish connection to Palestine remains unquestioned, but importantly, seeks to punish and marginalize those who tackle the legitimacy of this modern colonial-settler experiment.

But this group-think has led us nowhere. It has obfuscated, distracted, deflected, ducked, and diminished, and we are no closer to a satisfactory conclusion…because the premise is wrong.

There is no fixing this problem. This is the kind of crisis in which you cut your losses, realize the error of your ways and reverse course. Israel is the problem. It is the last modern-day colonial-settler experiment, conducted at a time when these projects were being unraveled globally.

There is no “Palestinian-Israeli conflict” – that suggests some sort of equality in power, suffering, and negotiable tangibles, and there is no symmetry whatsoever in this equation. Israel is the Occupier and Oppressor; Palestinians are the Occupied and Oppressed. What is there to negotiate? Israel holds all the chips. They can give back some land, property, rights, but even that is an absurdity – what about everything else? What about ALL the land, property and rights? Why do they get to keep anything – how is the appropriation of land and property prior to 1948 fundamentally different from the appropriation of land and property on this arbitrary 1967 date?

Why are the colonial-settlers prior to 1948 any different from those who colonized and settled after 1967?

Let me correct myself. Palestinians do hold one chip that Israel salivates over – the one big demand at the negotiating table that seems to hold up everything else. Israel craves recognition of its “right to exist.”

But you do exist - don’t you, Israel?

Israel fears “delegitimization” more than anything else. Behind the velvet curtain lies a state built on myths and narratives, protected only by a military behemoth, billions of dollars in US assistance and a lone UN Security Council veto. Nothing else stands between the state and its dismantlement. Without these three things, Israelis would not live in an entity that has come to be known as the “least safe place for Jews in the world.”

Strip away the spin and the gloss, and you quickly realize that Israel doesn’t even have the basics of a normal state. After 64 years, it doesn’t have borders. After six decades, it has never been more isolated. Over half a century later, and it needs a gargantuan military just to stop Palestinians from walking home.

Israel is a failed experiment. It is on life-support – pull those three plugs and it is a cadaver, living only in the minds of some seriously deluded foreigners who thought they could pull off the heist of the century.

The most important thing we can do as we hover on the horizon of One State is to shed the old language rapidly. None of it was real anyway – it was just the parlance of that particular “game.” Grow a new vocabulary of possibilities – the new state will be the dawn of humanity’s great reconciliation. Muslims, Christians and Jews living together in Palestine as they once did.

Naysayers can take a hike. Our patience is wearing thinner than the walls of the hovels that Palestinian refugees have called “home” for three generations in their purgatory camps.

These universally exploited refugees are entitled to the nice apartments – the ones that have pools downstairs and a grove of palm trees outside the lobby. Because the kind of compensation owed for this failed western experiment will never be enough.

And no, nobody hates Jews. That is the fallback argument screeched in our ears – the one “firewall” remaining to protect this Israeli Frankenstein. I don’t even care enough to insert the caveats that are supposed to prove I don’t hate Jews. It is not a provable point, and frankly, it is a straw man of an argument. If Jews who didn’t live through the Holocaust still feel the pain of it, then take that up with the Germans. Demand a sizeable plot of land in Germany – and good luck to you.

For anti-Semites salivating over an article that slams Israel, ply your trade elsewhere – you are part of the reason this problem exists.

Israelis who don’t want to share Palestine as equal citizens with the indigenous Palestinian population – the ones who don’t want to relinquish that which they demanded Palestinians relinquish 64 years ago - can take their second passports and go back home. Those remaining had better find a positive attitude – Palestinians have shown themselves to be a forgiving lot. The amount of carnage they have experienced at the hands of their oppressors – without proportional response – shows remarkable restraint and faith.

This is less the death of a Jewish state than it is the demise of the last remnants of modern-day colonialism. It is a rite of passage – we will get through it just fine. At this particular precipice in the 21st century, we are all, universally, Palestinian – undoing this wrong is a test of our collective humanity, and nobody has the right to sit this one out.

Israel has no right to exist. Break that mental barrier and just say it: “Israel has no right to exist.” Roll it around your tongue, tweet it, post it as your Facebook status update – do it before you think twice. Delegitimization is here – have no fear. Palestine will be less painful than Israel ever was.



So many of you were doing such a $hit job of standing up for Palestinians that I thought that as they have no voice on the forum I would speak for Palestinians as well lol. I would welcome Ptex or any Israeli to rebut the above

Ok guys we have a number of Israelis her who are articulate and enter into dialogue. I am going to email the writer of the above article to join us. Then we will have an Israeli POV and a Palestinian POV and we can then make an informed decision on this issue
 
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KS how do you reconcile in your mind the dislike of Saudi and the like of Israel when they appear to be complicit in places like Syria

I see it as a matter of national interest. In case of Syria, it is in Israel's national interest to see a peaceful Syria. Since the west is taking a stance which is anti Assad regime, I understand that Israel, being a small country, cannot afford to go against the west and be pro Assad.

Take for example the US. I detest US's expansionist strategy in Eastern Europe and Caucasus/middle east. But in other ways, I praise US (eg. the battle against religious fanaticism). Does not mean I dislike the US. I rather try to adopt a neutral stance and judge things on their individual credentials and try not to be influenced by stereotypes.

So a Saudi comes and trashes my country. I and other Pakistanis gave him a fitting reply. That means I am taking advantage. Just listen to you. This guys is an example of warped mind that KS was suggesting.

Please could you prove by copying a past post on here to show I am racist?? You cannot because you are dishonest.

It's the usual Arab tactic of playing the victim and crying a river when they are utterly exposed. Rants and more rants to justify their position. They are not suited for logical discussion. The more you sympathise with them the more they will get over your head and start dancing.

Blackeagle and his buddies got banned multiple times and got infractions trying to insult me/others, yet they never learn and chose to remain oblivious to reality, quite shamelessly.

P.S. Just as that article I PMed you analyzed Arab mentality.:lol:
 
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Excellent. This is going to be fun. But one minute, who is going to argue the Palestinian POV? :D
Ok guys we have a number of Israelis her who are articulate and enter into dialogue. I am going to email the writer of the above article to join us. Then we will have an Israeli POV and a Palestinian POV and we can then make an informed decision on this issue
 
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Ok guys we have a number of Israelis her who are articulate and enter into dialogue. I am going to email the writer of the above article to join us. Then we will have an Israeli POV and a Palestinian POV and we can then make an informed decision on this issue

Mate, I am still waiting for your reply to my post. I already replied to the article: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/183869-whos-right-israel-palestine-11.html#post3035885

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The article does not debunk any of the point Israel makes in it's defence. Let us compare Israel with Pakistan.

Both the countries were shaped by the British Empire as with India and all countries in the middle east. Both of them involved the migration based on religion due to the perceived unfair treatment of the respective religion. Israel has a right to exist as much as Pakistan has.

One additional point of Israel is that jews had historical ties to it's homeland. Muslims of south asia had no historical ties to the land known as Pakistan.

Now coming to this point, Zionists base their claim on the Land of Israel based on four points:

- The Jewish people settled and developed the land.

- The international community granted sovereignty to Jewish people over Palestine.

- The territory was captured in defensive wars against Arabs amidst continuous harassment and insurgency by Arab terrorists against Israeli civilians.

- God promised the land to Abraham. This is also supported by Islamic holy book Koran. So, we Muslims should not have any problem with this. After all, whoever promised the middle east to Arabs? Arabs were settlers once upon a time just like Zionists. Arab fascists act like the whole middle east is some God-gifted land to them and no Jew or Christian has any right to it even if they have legitimate reasons to claim so.


Leaving out the historical aspect, let us come to the near history.

By the early 1800s, many years before the birth of Zionist movement, more than 10000 jews lived in what is today known as Israel. It only gained prominence after 1870.

The Balfour declaration by British Empire legalized uninterrupted Jewish migration to the Land of Israel. Just as the partition in south asia legitimized the Muslim migration to present day pakistan. We do recognise Pakistan's right to exist don't we? What is our problem with Israel then?

Yep but Jews were happy before Zionists and Israelis arrived, Do you not comprehend that?

Are you sure the hate is not for Jews? And they lived peacefully before Israel?

When Hitler introduced the Nuremberg racial laws in 1935, he received telegrams of congratulation from all corners of the Arab world.5Later, during the war, one of his most ardent supporters was the Mufti of Jerusalem.

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.23

The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: “Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world.”25

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940’s in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.26 This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.

on November 23, 1937, Saudi Arabia’s King Ibn Saud told British Colonel H.R.P. Dickson: “Our hatred for the Jews dates from God’s condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus) and their subsequent rejection of His chosen Prophet.” He added “that for a Muslim to kill a Jew, or for him to be killed by a Jew ensures him an immediate entry into Heaven and into the august presence of God Almighty.”4

Jews were never permitted to live in Jordan. Civil Law No. 6, which governed the Jordanian-occupied West Bank, states explicitly: “Any man will be a Jordanian subject if he is not Jewish.”6

After the Six-Day War in 1967, the Israelis found public school textbooks that had been used to educate Arab children in the West Bank. They were replete with racist and hateful portrayals of Jews.7

King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, for example, said that Jews “have a certain day on which they mix the blood of non-Jews into their bread and eat it. It happened that two years ago, while I was in Paris on a visit, that the police discovered five murdered children. Their blood had been drained, and it turned out that some Jews had murdered them in order to take their blood and mix it with the bread that they eat on this day.”10
 
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Ok. That was one informative reply!
Mate, I am still waiting for your reply to my post. I already replied to the article: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/183869-whos-right-israel-palestine-11.html#post3035885

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The article does not debunk any of the point Israel makes in it's defence. Let us compare Israel with Pakistan.

Both the countries were shaped by the British Empire as with India and all countries in the middle east. Both of them involved the migration based on religion due to the perceived unfair treatment of the respective religion. Israel has a right to exist as much as Pakistan has.

One additional point of Israel is that jews had historical ties to it's homeland. Muslims of south asia had no historical ties to the land known as Pakistan.

Now coming to this point, Zionists base their claim on the Land of Israel based on four points:

- The Jewish people settled and developed the land.

- The international community granted sovereignty to Jewish people over Palestine.

- The territory was captured in defensive wars against Arabs amidst continuous harassment and insurgency by Arab terrorists against Israeli civilians.

- God promised the land to Abraham. This is also supported by Islamic holy book Koran. So, we Muslims should not have any problem with this. After all, whoever promised the middle east to Arabs? Arabs were settlers once upon a time just like Zionists. Arab fascists act like the whole middle east is some God-gifted land to them and no Jew or Christian has any right to it even if they have legitimate reasons to claim so.


Leaving out the historical aspect, let us come to the near history.

By the early 1800s, many years before the birth of Zionist movement, more than 10000 jews lived in what is today known as Israel. It only gained prominence after 1870.

The Balfour declaration by British Empire legalized uninterrupted Jewish migration to the Land of Israel. Just as the partition in south asia legitimized the Muslim migration to present day pakistan. We do recognise Pakistan's right to exist don't we? What is our problem with Israel then?



Are you sure the hate is not for Jews? And they lived peacefully before Israel?
 
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The American's around the time of Raymond Davis said that Pakistanis could even sell their mothers for the right price.

It's not shocking to see some of the comments here, just disappointing.
 
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Are you sure the hate is not for Jews? And they lived peacefully before Israel?

I assure you I have no hatred for anyone. I have always been pro Palestinian and I am as I mentioned in the OP reevaluating my position and support.

I wish to take my time as in a war of propaganda one always has too be very careful in what one accepts. You are aware that when I support something I am passionate.

I am aware that there is often analogies and comparison made between Pakistan. But I do not want to go down that road.That feels a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruits but are very different.

I would like you too to keep an open mind. Lets listen to real Palestinians. lets listen to real Israelis. Surely this can only assist us in making a decision.

It would be wrong of us to take a negative view on Palestine and their issue from their Arab advocates on here. We accept that whatever point of view they advocate they have the uncanny ability of turning us against that POV

The American's around the time of Raymond Davis said that Pakistanis could even sell their mothers for the right price.

It's not shocking to see some of the comments here, just disappointing.

What??? Have you even read my OP? Have you seen what I stated? I said that in my view that all options are open. From the one extreme if insisting that Israel does not exist to one recognising Israel.

Are we not allowed to discuss the pros and cons?? What are you suggesting we are selling our mothers cos we question our blind allegiance to Arabs?? Make your point clear
 
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I assure you I have no hatred for anyone. I have always been pro Palestinian and I am as I mentioned in the OP reevaluating my position and support.

I wish to take my time as in a war of propaganda one always has too be very careful in what one accepts. You are aware that when I support something I am passionate.

I am aware that there is often analogies and comparison made between Pakistan. But I do not want to go down that road.That feels a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruits but are very different.

I would like you too to keep an open mind. Lets listen to real Palestinians. lets listen to real Israelis. Surely this can only assist us in making a decision.

It would be wrong of us to take a negative view on Palestine and their issue from their Arab advocates on here. We accept that whatever point of view they advocate they have the uncanny ability of turning us against that POV

Sure mate, take your time. Personally, I have looked up palestinian as well as Israeli sources. I have always seen Palestinian sources taking shelter of lies and deception (which are easily exposed) to further their agenda whereas the Israeli sources are rather neutral and verifiable by concrete professional references. This is just my personal finding after looking up many sources from both sides (I am still learning). Your finding may be different and I respect that.

I have nothing against Palestinians as a whole, they are human beings, just like you and me . Israeli Arabs. Though I have, previously, snapped on them based on the fascist shenanigans of the Arab members here. I should have been more neutral on them.
 
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Yara.. No one is selling anyone here. I already have what people in the developed world aspire to, work for and still fail to achieve anything even close.

You don't have to agree with us on everything, that is what it means to be one vibrant nation. However, let's get emotions out of our national psyche, and for once be cold-blooded, calm headed and balanced citizens. :)

The American's around the time of Raymond Davis said that Pakistanis could even sell their mothers for the right price.

It's not shocking to see some of the comments here, just disappointing.

By the way RD was an American, not Israeli. Is every muslim an Arab or vice versa?
 
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Hahaha tera hi intezar ker raha tha mein. :D

And it has nothing to do with safavids.

Just to make your heart believe that we are not syed you make these stories. :enjoy:

its common sense, how the hell did someone reproduce so much to have soo many sayyidi's floating around???


Something is not right! and beside having a certain family tree doesnt make you any better..i have learned to take sayyids with a grain of salt as many of them happen to use it as a cloak for their shoddy / crooked activities. Most of the peer and fakirs also claim sayyidi title. One recent example would be Syed Yousuf Raza Gelani, probably the first president to be dismissed by SC on corruption charges - some good sayyidi lineage at work here.

Do you know how to play diplomacy? I know you are the kind of guy that favours Arabs over Persians. I ask you what your real interest is. Looking at your flag, it appears to me that you are indeed a Pakistani. Really if i were you i would absorb the good things from both sides. If Arabs give us Oil you should be happy. If Iranians give us Gas and electricity, then you should show the same kind of respect. If you continue to become ignorant then oh well you are not loyal to the nation displayed as your flag.

Exactly, I am Pakistani so Pakistan first - what do Arabs and Persians have got to do here.

This forum is called PDF for a reason. I have gone full kamikaze on Arabs without a fear - dont worry about it dear just dig my old posts.
 
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Exactly, I am Pakistani so Pakistan first - what do Arabs and Persians have got to do here.

This forum is called PDF for a reason. I have gone full kamikaze on Arabs without a fear - dont worry about it dear just dig my old posts.

Look at your last post you went on your anti Iranian tirade

Excellent. This is going to be fun. But one minute, who is going to argue the Palestinian POV? :D

I am trying to contact the author of that article Sharmine.
 
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Excuse Me, But Israel Has No Right To Exist

By Sharmine Narwani - Thu, 2012-05-17 21:46- The Sandbox
Israel has right to exist. And I can even show its picture:

1176958_372417.1340541366.jpg
 
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its common sense, how the hell did someone reproduce so much to have soo many sayyidi's floating around???


Something is not right! and beside having a certain family tree doesnt make you any better..i have learned to take sayyids with a grain of salt as many of them happen to use it as a cloak for their shoddy / crooked activities. Most of the peer and fakirs also claim sayyidi title. One recent example would be Syed Yousuf Raza Gelani, probably the first president to be dismissed by SC on corruption charges - some good sayyidi lineage at work here.

I have my shajra-e-nasab with its history. But i agree there are many fake syed in this world.

Israel has right to exist. And I can even show its picture:

1176958_372417.1340541366.jpg

Hmmm. :D

baktar_shikan-atmws.jpg
 
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Based on my personal preferences.

You mean, your preference for certain shades of skin? Remember what you're responding to -- a story I posted about an Ethiopian Jewish protest against housing discrimination.

Entire link is garbage propaganda.

That's eloquent.

In reality number of Christians grew from 11,000 in 1967 to 15,000 in 2007.

Less than 1% growth per year. A dismal number and no doubt much inferior to the overall population growth in Jerusalem, and in Israel at large. Suggestive of positive fertility rates combined with high net emigration of the Christian community.

Number of Muslims grew much more sharply though: from 54,000 to 240,000.

Nothing but a product of high fertility rates. Are you trying to say Israeli Arabs are integrated just because they have many children?

This point is nonsense.

Didn't I quote a tory about a Druze soldier saying he couldn't find a job, being told that he's just an Arab, after he finished his duties? But sure, feel free to pontificate him about his own life story.
 
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Israel has right to exist. And I can even show its picture:

I managed to hunt the email of the author of that article that disagrees with you and have invited her to comment on the forum. Then we can have all pov and make an informed decision. I do hope all participate in a constructive manner
 
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