Israel and a Solution to Its Conflict

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

That is a joke. I see no such possibility in 100 years.

In case you are wondering... I was being serious...

 

[ephone]

In case you are wondering... I was being serious...

What exactly can you do except that lip service???

 

[nirreich]

Even though I support using the pre-war 1967 borders as the demarcation between Israel and the possible Palestinian state, I would not withdraw a single soldier or dismantle a single settlement unless the Palestinian government writes in its legislation that it recognizes the State of Israel and peace should be meant forever between the two.

An international monitoring agency would need be set up to monitor the transition. Any violation would get serious punishment from U.N.

A nice idea, unfortunately unviable. The Palestinian national movement is committed to the idea of the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, and it would take a generation or two for a significant change in their perception.

However, the current situation is dangerous for Israel - it cannot continue for long to remain a democratic state while being reponsible for millions of Palestinians without equal rights to Israel's citizens. It is impossible to annex the pre-1967 terrirtories to Israel and mantaining the state as a Jewish national homeland - 20% of current Israel's citizens are Arabs and they would become a majority in a unified state.

As a result, Israel must end its control over the West Bank if it wants to survive. Withdrawal most probably would not prevent terror against Israel (it might even increase the attacks), however it will guarantee Israel's existance. So, we should not wait for the Palestinians for their recognition in Israel.

The Palestinians would be able to declare on their own state in the territory which would be evacuate.

 

[saleen_s7]

Is it possible to have a state shared by all:jews, muslims and chrisitans and just call it a secular country. In my mind, I can think of only two options. First, call it a secular nation and let everyone live in peace. Or just bulldoze the entire area and turn it into a dessert. Not a bad idea, if you really think about it.

 

[ephone]

If Palestinian side does not recognize Israel, I would suggest Israel do not withdraw anything.

Only after you have their recognition heard and observed by the world loud and clear, it is then the time for Israel to withdraw.

About Israel's safety, trust me, no government in mid-east has the guts to attack Israel any more. I will not doubt U.S. will militarily intervene if Israel is in difficult situation.

About Hamas, the group that sponsors the most terrorist attacks against Israel, I think you need attack them as hard as possible. Precise bombs, assassinations, covert ops and etc can all be used.

A nice idea, unfortunately unviable. The Palestinian national movement is committed to the idea of the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, and it would take a generation or two for a significant change in their perception.

However, the current situation is dangerous for Israel - it cannot continue for long to remain a democratic state while being reponsible for millions of Palestinians without equal rights to Israel's citizens. It is impossible to annex the pre-1967 terrirtories to Israel and mantaining the state as a Jewish national homeland - 20% of current Israel's citizens are Arabs and they would become a majority in a unified state.

As a result, Israel must end its control over the West Bank if it wants to survive. Withdrawal most probably would not prevent terror against Israel (it might even increase the attacks), however it will guarantee Israel's existance. So, we should not wait for the Palestinians for their recognition in Israel.

The Palestinians would be able to declare on their own state in the territory which would be evacuate.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

If Palestinian side does not recognize Israel, I would suggest Israel do not withdraw anything.

Only after you have their recognition heard and observed by the world loud and clear, it is then the time for Israel to withdraw.

About Israel's safety, trust me, no government in mid-east has the guts to attack Israel any more. I will not doubt U.S. will militarily intervene if Israel is in difficult situation.

About Hamas, the group that sponsors the most terrorist attacks against Israel, I think you need attack them as hard as possible. Precise bombs, assassinations, covert ops and etc can all be used.

My friend ephone you should put yourself in shoes of others to understand their point of view. Let suppose Jews would have consider China as holy or promised land of God based on their holy scriptures and would have made illegal Jewish settlement there and would have created a country for jews living in different countries with the help of their big daddy US and Britain then you as a Chinese would recognise their existence?

Second if Hamas was fighting for the rights of Chinese peoples would you call it a terrorist organization? Hamas is a terrorist for oppressor and its freedom fighter for those who are being oppressed. Hamas did not came into existence from no where. In a very real sense, Israel created Hamas by its cruel and unjust treatment of Palestinians. America and other western powers such as Britain must bear some of the responsibility too. None of them was prepared to square up to Israel when it could have made a difference

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Is it possible to have a state shared by all:jews, muslims and chrisitans and just call it a secular country. In my mind, I can think of only two options .

Palestinians granted Israeli citizenship lived very much as second class citizens in a Jewish state. Those who remained in occupied areas such as the West Bank and Gaza Strip suffered brutal oppression. Israel is a racist state which openly discriminates against people of Palestinian ancestry. No 'Right of Return' for them. It routinely imposes collective punishments, abducts and tortures 'suspects', assassinates opponents and tyrannizes its subject Palestinians. Covertly, it has developed nuclear weapons and sits on a stockpile of perhaps 200 warheads whilst complaining about alleged attempts by Arab neighbours to follow suit. Its contempt for civilized behavior was graphically shown in its furious demolition of southern Lebanon in 2007 as it tried and failed to subdue Hizbollah

 

[bularab]

The problem is very simple: Would you leave your home, if somebody big says you LEAVE?

 

[Meengla]

@Nirreich,
Telling only part of the narrative makes the narrative biased.
Not only Palestinians but the entire Arab world (and by extension, the Islamic world of 57 countries) have clearly extended full recognition of Israel. They have even left the possibility open that the Palestinian refugees may be only taken back in token numbers--say a few thousand--for symbolic reasons. Yes, I am aware of the so-called PLO and Hamas Charter about Israel. But what about the charters of the various Israeli political parties vis a vis Palestinians? How about a sizable number of Israelis believing that 'G-D gave them the land thousands of years ago and hence the real Palestine is in Jordan.' That can only mean ethnic cleansing. A soft one but still ethnic cleansing. Starve, harass, and humiliate so much that they may want to leave 'Judea and Samaria'. And don't get me started on the illegal squatters called Settlers and their racist and violent ways. Heck, every now and then you still see people who think that there are NO 'Palestinians' as such. What does that really mean?
Anyway, you Israelis, with the American media control, may have convinced yourself and Americans of the justness of your 'cause'. But the world, thanks to the internet, is fast catching up. And you know that darn well.
It is becoming fast approaching time to settle the dispute and move on.
I firmly believe that not only the Palestinians will accept Israel as a Jewish majority state but will also settle down and live normally in their own state.
However, I doubt Israelis have even a 50% majority people who would want a viable Palestinian state. After all, G-D gave you the land some thousand years ago.
You see: What Palestinians may say in their Charters the Israelis are actually doing it already by their Settlement activities: A slow death of the Palestinian nation.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

actually to be honest with you, it was israel itself that laid the foundation and was instrumental towards the creation of HAMAS --which israel used as an entity to counter the rise of Yasser Arafat's PLO

friend became foe as time progressed


HAMAS is the democratically elected government of a fractured Palestinian Nation. And the peace talks between FATAH and HAMAS are not only commendable, but they will also lead to an end of the political disconnect between West Bank and Gaza which has only been of detriment to Palestinian Nation and beneficial to the Occupational State.


with that said however, a political solution is badly needed. Both sides need to acknowledge eachothers' reality. I dont see that happening as long as Mr. Netanyahu and his jingoistic approach prevail. Not a chance.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

actually to be honest with you, it was israel itself that laid the foundation and was instrumental towards the creation of HAMAS --which israel used as an entity to counter the rise of Yasser Arafat's PLO

friend became foe as time progressed


HAMAS is the democratically elected government of a fractured Palestinian Nation. And the peace talks between FATAH and HAMAS are not only commendable, but they will also lead to an end of the political disconnect between West Bank and Gaza which has only been of detriment to Palestinian Nation and beneficial to the Occupational State.


with that said however, a political solution is badly needed. Both sides need to acknowledge eachothers' reality. I dont see that happening as long as Mr. Netanyahu and his jingoistic approach prevail. Not a chance.

Cancers dont get cured by using Paracetamol my dear Bu Zolfiqar... There is such a thing as radical surgery...

Its actually a humilitation of the whole of Islamic world that we allow an entity such as Israel to exist...

what a bunch of cowards and pussies have Muslims become...

If we only spit on Israel, they could all drown... tsk tsk

 

[nirreich]

Sorry to disappoint you but you need to strait your facts.

Jews have continued to live in Zion/Palestine/Israel since the Roman exile an through all the periods of history. For example, Jews were the majority among the people of Jerusalem at least from the 19th century. Jews hoped to return to Israel generation after generation and few of them did so centuries before Israel was established.

Regarding the Palestinians, there were not any until the 1920's after the British received the Mandate for Palestine. They were part of the Arab people and wanted to be part of Syria. Only when the Zionist movement was able under the international commitments of the League of Nations to begin founding a state for the Jews, the local residence called themselves Palestinians and demanded a separate state. Until then the Zionist movement considered the local population as part of the Arab people and saw it as a small nuisance to found a country in an almost deserted land (around 500 thousand people, including Jews and others) while promising the locals full citizenship in an independent Jewish state.

All along the way, the Jewish community was ready for a compromise in which the Palestinians would have their own independent country. Nowadays, as almost one hundred years ago, the Palestinians reject any permanent agreement that would legitimise the existence of the Jewish state: They insist that all their refugees (all!) which fled in the 1948 War would be allow to return and end the existence of the Jewish state. In a nutshell this is the story.

Hence, the Jews did not steel anything from the Arabs, were always ready for a compromise (including today - Israel is ready to accept the establishment of a Palestinian state) while the Palestinian national movement was and still is committed to the destruction of Israel.

BTW, the Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are not a second class citizens and enjoy much more rights and protections by the state than Pakistani citizens. Each country can choose who it likes to grant citizenship and Israel decided to allow this privilege for Jews as Israel is the only Jewish country in the world. No such right would be granted for Palestinians as a result of the above political circumstances. If Israeli Palestinians want to rejoin with their relatives they are welcome to do that in the home state of their relatives.

Hamas is not an organisation of 'freedom fighters' - they do not want an independent state, they want to destroy Israel. All you need to do is to read their charter which is an Anti-Semitic - Like the Nazis, they blame the Jews for all the wrong doing in the world. Furthermore, they are proud of their terror operations against innocent civilians, including women and children. What there is to discuss with them? They do not recognise Israel or ready to cease their terror operations against it until its destruction. What should we talk with them? On the exact time of our annihilation?

 

[nirreich]

@Nirreich,
Telling only part of the narrative makes the narrative biased.
Not only Palestinians but the entire Arab world (and by extension, the Islamic world of 57 countries) have clearly extended full recognition of Israel. They have even left the possibility open that the Palestinian refugees may be only taken back in token numbers--say a few thousand--for symbolic reasons. Yes, I am aware of the so-called PLO and Hamas Charter about Israel. But what about the charters of the various Israeli political parties vis a vis Palestinians? How about a sizable number of Israelis believing that 'G-D gave them the land thousands of years ago and hence the real Palestine is in Jordan.' That can only mean ethnic cleansing. A soft one but still ethnic cleansing. Starve, harass, and humiliate so much that they may want to leave 'Judea and Samaria'. And don't get me started on the illegal squatters called Settlers and their racist and violent ways. Heck, every now and then you still see people who think that there are NO 'Palestinians' as such. What does that really mean?
Anyway, you Israelis, with the American media control, may have convinced yourself and Americans of the justness of your 'cause'. But the world, thanks to the internet, is fast catching up. And you know that darn well.
It is becoming fast approaching time to settle the dispute and move on.
I firmly believe that not only the Palestinians will accept Israel as a Jewish majority state but will also settle down and live normally in their own state.
However, I doubt Israelis have even a 50% majority people who would want a viable Palestinian state. After all, G-D gave you the land some thousand years ago.
You see: What Palestinians may say in their Charters the Israelis are actually doing it already by their Settlement activities: A slow death of the Palestinian nation.

The Palestinians under the PA have better life than most of the Arab people and the people in some Muslim countries, like Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Most of the Jewish public is ready for an independent Palestinian state on most of the pre-1967 territory. The same public supported the complete withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula (bigger than Israel!) in return for a (cold) peace agreement with Egypt, was ready to let the PLO build the PA inside the pre-1967 territories, and supported the complete withdrawal from Gaze, including dismantling all Israel's settlements. Similar support is there for a withdrawal from the Golan Heights in exchange for a peace agreement with Syria.

Not the Palestinians and not a single Arab country (including the ones we have a formal peace with - Egypt and Jordan) are ready to recognise Israel as the Jewish nation state. All of them demand the so-called 'right of return' for the Palestinians - which means the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.

Like in every society, in Israel too there are extremists who are not ready for any compromise, but clearly they are a neglected minority. Most of public support political parties which are ready for a moderate solution of the conflict which include an independent Palestinian state.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

while the Palestinian national movement was and still is committed to the destruction of Israel.
Hamas is not an organisation of 'freedom fighters' - they do not want an independent state, they want to destroy Israel. All you need to do is to read their charter which is an Anti-Semitic - Like the Nazis, they blame the Jews for all the wrong doing in the world.

Furthermore, they are proud of their terror operations against innocent civilians, including women and children. What there is to discuss with them? They do not recognise Israel or ready to cease their terror operations against it until its destruction. What should we talk with them? On the exact time of our annihilation?

you say they want to destroy Israel and why is that? Why they want to destroy Israel when Israel and Jews are innocent peoples who never oppressed and destroy any Palestinians. Are they crazy ? Why Hamas don't destroy Nigerian lol. The creation of Israel in 1948 was a triumph for the Jews but an injustice to the Palestinians. The wars of 1948 and 1967 only made matters worse. Israel grabbed more land and control. Many more Palestinians were dispossessed of their land and fled to live as disgruntled refugees in neighboring Arab lands. They dreamed of regaining their land and property and they are fighting for it with all their limited resources.

The USA was wholly biased in favor of Israel, whom it armed, bankrolled and protected politically in the United Nations Security Council. Other western countries were little better. There was no one to speak up for the Palestinians except Yasser Arafat and his Fatah movement but they became mired in corruption and less committed to fighting Israel. As Israel with American connivance or at best acquiescence, gradually stole more of the West Bank by establishing hundreds of illegal Jewish settlements and progressively encroached on Muslim areas of Jerusalem, Palestinians revolted. The first Intifada erupted. It was a campaign of civil disobedience and resistance and Hamas masterminded it. It was a great success exposing Israeli brutality to the world and convincing Israel that military occupation would not come cheaply. It drove Israel to the Oslo peace talks.

If the wider world had been fairer in its dealings with the Palestinians, much of what has built up since the 1967 war could have been avoided. It is unhelpful to condemn an organization as terrorist and evil on the one hand and on the other to continue to turn a blind eye to the misery and injustice which gave rise to it. Palestinians will strive for a return of the land stolen from them. They will demand their right to a homeland. They will expect the same dignity and opportunities demanded as a right by others. Hamas offers them the prospect of securing these things. Hamas won democratically contested elections in Gaza. The response of the world's leading democracies was crass and hypocritical. The people of Gaza were punished for their temerity. In face of that, why should anyone trust in democracy again? If they turn to the missile and the explosive belt, I would condemn them, but I would understand why they did it.

Read this to find out who killed more innocent peoples and these are the reports of your own human rights organization.
B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities
If anyone wants Hamas to cease to operate, they need to start by changing the Israeli State's mind set and that of its apologists. Until the freedom fighters will give their lives for what they believe is just whether they cloak it in religion or anything else. At its root it is not a struggle by evil or for Islam but it is a struggle against oppression and injustice. Peace

 

[fallstuff]

Israel-PLO Recognition:
Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat


1. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN:

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.

In view of the pormise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization




2. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO NORWEGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER:

September 9, 1993

His Excellency
Johan Jorgen Holst
Foreign Minister of Norway

Dear Minister Holst,

I would like top confirm to you that, upon the signing of the Declaration of Principles, the PLO encourages and calls upon the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to take part in the steps leading to the normalization of life, rejecting violence and terrorism, contributing to peace and stability and participating actively in shaping reconstruction, economic develoment and cooperation.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization




3. LETTER FROM PRIME MINISTER RABIN TO YASSER ARAFAT:

September 9, 1993

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestinian Liberation Organization

Mr. Chairman,

In response to your letter of September 9, 1993, I wish to confirm to you that, in light of the PLO commitments included in your letter, the Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel


Israel-PLO Recognition - Exchange of Letters betwe