Isn’t ‘Illegal Bangladeshi’ Racist Shorthand For Bengali Speaking Muslims In Assam

[INDIC]

Not really, it's like any other area in BD.

Many Bangladeshis discuss Sylhet as different culture which made me believe that its different from East Bengal.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That is the conclusion that I wanted you to come to. The rest of the post has no relevance to the language as that is completely political history of that region. I have no objection to that.

Besides Kamarupa Inscriptions cant be the origin of Assamese language as it is just a script and the language is mostly sanskrit. Sylhetis has a script (Nagri script) does not mean sylheti is not bengali.

Taking all your point, why should we call this language Assamese after all? In historical perspective it should be called Kamarupa language right? But we cant, because there is nothing called Kamarupa languge to begin with. You got my point?

I did, but it's a pretty silly point, honestly.

Then we shouldn't have Bengali script, after all; there was no Bengal, only Rarh, Varendra, Vang, Samatata and Harikela. It should perhaps be called Rarhi.

Bengali is what we call the language spoken by Bengalis and Bangladeshis alike. It is called so in deference to modern nomenclature of the people of West Bengal and Bangladesh.

Assamese is what we call the language spoken by Assamese. It is called so because with the conquest of the Brahmaputra Valley by the Ahoms, the older usage of Pragjyotishpur and Kamarupa fell into disuse. So although the language predates the Ahom, it is called, after the present name of the Brahmaputra Valley, Assamese.

When we talk about 13th century and you all of a sudden brought Khilji???

Your complete ignorance of the period earlier than the 13th century leads to that surmise. You have yourself to blame, no one else.

Thats the whole point. What took you so long?

Thats the same politics that we do like Assamese

I really don't understand the droll humour behind this one. Or the point. Other than acknowledging that there is nothing left to argue.

Many Bangladeshis discuss Sylhet as different culture which made me believe that its different from East Bengal.

You are right.

It was separated out, attached to Assam, and developed separate characteristics of its own.

 

[TopCat]

I did, but it's a pretty silly point, honestly.

Then we shouldn't have Bengali script, after all; there was no Bengal, only Rarh, Varendra, Vang, Samatata and Harikela. It should perhaps be called Rarhi.

Bengali is what we call the language spoken by Bengalis and Bangladeshis alike. It is called so in deference to modern nomenclature of the people of West Bengal and Bangladesh.

Assamese is what we call the language spoken by Assamese. It is called so because with the conquest of the Brahmaputra Valley by the Ahoms, the older usage of Pragjyotishpur and Kamarupa fell into disuse. So although the language predates the Ahom, it is called, after the present name of the Brahmaputra Valley, Assamese.



Your complete ignorance of the period earlier than the 13th century leads to that surmise. You have yourself to blame, no one else.



I really don't understand the droll humour behind this one. Or the point. Other than acknowledging that there is nothing left to argue.



You are right.

It was separated out, attached to Assam, and developed separate characteristics of its own.

Read your whole post again. You trying to make a linguist conclusion based on political ideology or division. If it was not Ahom the whole Assamese language would had still be called Bengali. It is just Ahom people's convenience to make it that way.
Your post itself is self explanatory.

 

[INDIC]

Your complete ignorance of the period earlier than the 13th century leads to that surmise. You have yourself to blame, no one else.

Sadly, Bangladeshi have no interest in history before 13th century with that their ignorance as @iajdani is showing right now.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Read your whole post again. You trying to make a linguist conclusion based on political ideology or division. If it was not Ahom the whole Assamese language would had still be called Bengali. It is just Ahom people's convenience to make it that way.
Your post itself is self explanatory.

Read your history and geography textbooks from school again.

Neither Pragjyotishpur nor Kamarupa have anything to do with Bengal. Nor does the language the inhabitants of those places in the Brahmaputra Valley spoke have anything to do with the languages that the inhabitants of the five different places that are today called Bengal and Bangladesh spoke.

Sadly, Bangladeshi have no interest in history before 13th century with that their ignorance as @iajdani is showing right now.

What can anyone do against such smug indifference to anything that doesn't coincide with their prejudices?

 

[Jayanta]

Another dialect of Bengali detected....

Hidden Language Recorded

 

[halupridol]

Another dialect of Bengali detected....

Hidden Language Recorded

@jaunty keneke ban hol?

 

[extra terrestrial]

You should not intervene in a dispute over scholastic matters, in that case.

That's quite haughty! So you mean the common persons are not entitled to critically analyze the scholastic matters?

You change your story every now and then. I copied and pasted the entire sequence of arguments to show that you did mention script, then, when contradicted, you were sceptical and demanded to know the connection, and finally, now, you feel that picking up on a casual matter was not something to emphasise. Why didn't you say right at the outset that your reference to script was irrelevant?

That was nitpicking on your part, you failed to understand on what context I made the comment on script while replying to Zootinali.

Please make up your mind. Is this still your own opinion, or is it now the miracle of St. Elizabeth, and your opinion is now miraculously supported by the research of the Baptist missionaries?
There is nothing that you have cited, other than your own opinion, that Assamese was considered a dialect of Bengali.
There are enough instances cited that Assamese was considered one language among several in the valley, and was made the official language, first, to comply with the provisions of the constitution, second, to identify Assamese as the one among the many that should enjoy official sanction.

So you are denying that Assamese was once considered a dialect of Bengali? Didn't expect it from you.

"From time to time representations have been made by the people of Assam praying that Assamese should be recognised as the language of the province, and some of the Government officers have supported these representations. The view that Assamese is a dialect of, and almost identical with Bengali had however prevailed, and the Government had declined to make Assamese the official language of Assam,"

Report on the Administration of Bengal, 1872

The Baptist missionary schools in the rural areas did use Assamese as a medium of teaching but that was due to their purpose of religious preaching, not because of any distinct identity of Assamese.

You mentioned the Chorjapod, which the Kamarupa Inscriptions are not.

I mistook that earlier post as Kamarup script instead of inscriptions which is why I mentioned Chorjapod.

However, even otherwise, if we go far enough back, all the languages in the list of descendants of Magadhi Prakrit will begin to look like each other. That is what descending from a root language and gradually getting differentiated implies, in case you were under the impression that from the outset, all the descendant languages were fully formed in their distinction from the others.

I was never under that impression. The point of the debate was when Assamese actually began to form the distinction from Bengali.

Since you still haven't take the trouble to look up these incriptions, they extend over centuries, from the 7th down to recent times, and they are in multiple forms, not just in one. They show clearly the increasing differentiation of the Assamese language from the original Sanskrit Inscriptions, and they show the use of script distinct to Assamese. It was this clear descent and the transparency of the evolution that was referred to in saying that the linguistic autonomy started in the 7th century. If you notice, there was no outside influence and reversions in the inscriptions; there was a process of evolution that was clearly independent.

Bringing Kamarup inscriptions to the debate is futile, as I've mentioned Kamarup inscription is also considered an example of pre-modern Bengali. Even Suniti Kumar also mentioned Kamarup inscriptions while discussing the origin and development of Bengali. The script of Kamarup inscriptions being more similar to Assamese script is equally pointless since Bengali and Assamese use the same script.

 

[Jayanta]

@jaunty keneke ban hol?

Nejanu pai....karobak jarile sage.

 

[extra terrestrial]

You are right.
It was separated out, attached to Assam, and developed separate characteristics of its own.

You don't have to support an idiotic post by a troll just because he happens to be your compatriot. Being attached to Assam for just half a century makes it develop separate characteristics and forget its four thousand years of history as part of Bengal? Good one!

 

[Joe Shearer]

That's quite haughty! So you mean the common persons are not entitled to critically analyze the scholastic matters?

No, not unless they have the information, the knowledge and the training to participate.

That was nitpicking on your part, you failed to understand on what context I made the comment on script while replying to Zootinali.

You had ample opportunity to retract your comment. Instead, you chose sarcasm. My response to any kind of dysfunctional statement is to treat it with information.

So you are denying that Assamese was once considered a dialect of Bengali? Didn't expect it from you.

"From time to time representations have been made by the people of Assam praying that Assamese should be recognised as the language of the province, and some of the Government officers have supported these representations. The view that Assamese is a dialect of, and almost identical with Bengali had however prevailed, and the Government had declined to make Assamese the official language of Assam,"

Report on the Administration of Bengal, 1872

The Baptist missionary schools in the rural areas did use Assamese as a medium of teaching but that was due to their purpose of religious preaching, not because of any distinct identity of Assamese.

That was an administrative point of view that you have quoted, and has nothing to do with expert or learned opinion.
That was also a decision in 1872, when the British were trying to consolidate their hold on the newly conquered country, Assam, and did not want to consider any of the fine print.

The trouble with you Bangladeshi commentators is that you are stuck in a time warp. One of you lives in the 13th century, the other one lives in the 19th century.

I mistook that earlier post as Kamarup script instead of inscriptions which is why I mentioned Chorjapod.

That is why I said stay out of these discussions.

I meant it in a kindly way, in a friendly way, you chose to take umbrage. This discussion, or at least, this part of the discussion, is not for you.

I was never under that impression. The point of the debate was when Assamese actually began to form the distinction from Bengali.

Does it matter what your impression 'really' was? What people will remember is what you said it was, what they thought you said it was. And I've already answered the when question in some detail.

Bringing Kamarup inscriptions to the debate is futile, as I've mentioned Kamarup inscription is also considered an example of pre-modern Bengali. Even Suniti Kumar also mentioned Kamarup inscriptions while discussing the origin and development of Bengali. The script of Kamarup inscriptions being more similar to Assamese script is equally pointless since Bengali and Assamese use the same script.

Your mentioning it might be considered futile, by some.

Suniti Chatterjee's reference (not Suniti Kumar's reference) was interesting, because without that prop, the earliest date for Bengali goes to the 10th century. You do see what is happening, don't you?

And the script being similar to Assamese is very much to the point, as it shows precisely and clearly how the Assamese script was derived from the earlier common script. Incidentally, Maithilakshar (I've mentioned this before) also has the same script.

You don't have to support an idiotic post by a troll just because he happens to be your compatriot. Being attached to Assam for just half a century makes it develop separate characteristics and forget its four thousand years of history as part of Bengal? Good one!

See my first comment in post #146.

 

[INDIC]

What can anyone do against such smug indifference to anything that doesn't coincide with their prejudices?

You must be knowing what Bangladeshis think about themselves. 55% foreign origin, 15% mixed and 30% Bangladeshi are Buddhist converts.

Bengali Nationalism a Threat to Bangladesh's National Security | Page 5

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sadly, Bangladeshi have no interest in history before 13th century with that their ignorance as @iajdani is showing right now.

I'm frankly baffled with the attitude in which they take refuge when confronted by facts.

 

[zootinali]

@Joe Shearer

Thanks for your respect but I'm not a scholar and never claimed to be one.

First, when did I bluff? When did I deny that I made a comment on the script? However, the comment was to Zootinali to highlight the similarities between Bengali and Assamese which Zootinali denied arguing the Tibeto-Burman influences on Assamese. The question on script was not something to emphasize on but you nitpicked it and continued to bring some irrelevant historical pieces.

Second, Assamese being a dialect of Bengali is my own opinion and remains so and you can check each and every post of mine in this thread, I always said Assamese "was" considered a dialect of Bengali. Now Joe, can you deny this thing? I did provide some facts to back my opinion and they were all true facts. Till the demands of the Assamese people and the research made by the Baptist Missionaries, Assamese was indeed considered a dialect of Bengali.

about tibeto-burman influence ,it is absolutely correct ..

about assamese being the dialect of bangla ,you have provided the answer yourself, that it was mistake by the british , but you are still holding on to wrong idea, why ??
do you still believe that earth is flat and that sun revolves around it because people used to believe that too..

 

[extra terrestrial]

No, not unless they have the information, the knowledge and the training to participate.

Well, in this case they have both the information and knowledge, didn't know a common person need to have a training to participate in such discussions, may be you should start such institution.

You had ample opportunity to retract your comment. Instead, you chose sarcasm. My response to any kind of dysfunctional statement is to treat it with information.

Why would I retract that comment since it was properly placed in proper context, it was not directed to you. Sarcasm? Where did you find that? You failed to understand the context and jumbled up your posts. Your response was to the wrong post and you treated it with irrelevant information.

That was an administrative point of view that you have quoted, and has nothing to do with expert or learned opinion.
That was also a decision in 1872, when the British were trying to consolidate their hold on the newly conquered country, Assam, and did not want to consider any of the fine print.
The trouble with you Bangladeshi commentators is that you are stuck in a time warp. One of you lives in the 13th century, the other one lives in the 19th century.

Yeah, you first asked for a source, when I provided one you then blew it away by saying nothing to do with expert or learned opinion. British annexation of Assam began in 1765 in parts and completed fully in the 1830s yet even after 40 years they were "trying" to consolidate their hold on the "newly conquered country", sure, anything to prove an absurd point!

That is why I said stay out of these discussions.
I meant it in a kindly way, in a friendly way, you chose to take umbrage. This discussion, or at least, this part of the discussion, is not for you.

That's a good way of winning a lost argument, expected, only this was left after your continuous personal attacks to me. If I'm not wrong you tried the same trick in the Rise of Islam in Bengal thread while running out of argument, not surprisingly in that thread as well you responded to the wrong post of mine directed to other member with hell lot of misinterpretation.

Does it matter what your impression 'really' was? What people will remember is what you said it was, what they thought you said it was. And I've already answered the when question in some detail.

It does matter if you are misinterpreting my posts. And no, you didn't answer the question, if you are thinking of another blabbering about Kamarup inscriptions then go through the discussion again, it has been already contradicted.

Suniti Chatterjee's reference (not Suniti Kumar's reference) was interesting, because without that prop, the earliest date for Bengali goes to the 10th century. You do see what is happening, don't you?

His full name was Suniti Kumar Chatterjee (whom are you trying to fool?). We don't rely on references from a single scholar, do we? I mentioned his reference since I thought you take his references more meticulously as you referred him in one of your earlier posts here.

And the script being similar to Assamese is very much to the point, as it shows precisely and clearly how the Assamese script was derived from the earlier common script. Incidentally, Maithilakshar (I've mentioned this before) also has the same script.

Again, the same blabbering! You do understand the fact that the script of Kamarup inscriptions are also considered an example of pre-modern Bengali script. Referring to the Kamarup inscriptions rather proves more similarity between Bengali and Assamese

See my first comment in post #146.

Same comment, you don't have to support an idiotic post by a troll just because he happens to be your compatriot.
.

that it was mistake by the british

And when did I say it was a mistake of British?