Islamic states threaten Australia with sanctions over 'disputed E.Jerushelum' narrative.

[humanfirst]

We also not scared of dying they want war we would give them war if they don't war than solve Palestine issue which is never going to happen so war is only option is left

If by any chance mecca and medina got nuked,wont it invalidate your religion..?

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

If by any chance mecca and medina got nuked,wont it invalidate your religion..?

No, it won't.



In Islamic imagination of the world, Ka'aba is nothing more than a black box.

Prophet Muhammad ordered a black-slave to stand ON top of Ka'aba to show Muslims that Ka'aba is nothing but just a square...

 

[Hakan]

...Does Australia even do any trade with Islamic countries?

I think they sell sheep to Turkey.

Seriously, I really dislike this "Islamic bloc" narrative. Today, we live in nation states, not in some religious blocs. If we all follow Muslims' mentality, should we form Christian bloc? Buddhist Bloc? Gee, are we gonna all gang up based on our religion.

Plus, this Islamic block mentality really creates confusion of loyalty among some Muslims. Should they consider Saudi Arabia's national interest as their priority no matter where they live? Should they consider other Islamic country's interest over their home country's interest? If that's the case, then they will be regarded as natural traitors by their fellow citizens in their respective country, which could jeopardize their safety if there is a conflict between a Islamic country and his home country.

In islam the idea of all muslims being part of the same nation is very strong. We are all brothers and sisters and we belong to the same ummah (Nation) The concept of nationalism is very new among muslims.

Yet another Pakistani making (up) history

All of his information was factually correct.

 

[Arya Desa]

Why do pakistanis claim OUR Mughal history?



*Edited for typos*

 

[Arya Desa]

Gahindustanis reject Mughal history as their own since Mughals weren't Ghahindus...

Mughals were Muslims like us.

It is a know fact Mughals treated Punjabi muslims the worst out of any group. He gave Punjabi Hindus (yes Hindus) precendent over them. Mughals brought many Hindus and Jains into the Royal court, many Pathans and Iranians, yet he brought no Punjabi muslim. You cling to a people that loathed you.

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

It is a know fact Mughals treated Punjabi muslims the worst out of any group. He gave Punjabi Hindus (yes Hindus) precendent over them. Mughals brought many Hindus and Jains into the Royal court, many Pathans and Iranians, yet he brought no Punjabi muslim. You cling to a people that loathed you.

We don't cling to shit.

Move on.

We are Pakistanis and that's it.

 

[Tshering22]

I think Australia needs to be supported now.

This is point blank harassment. A sovereign, independent nation doesn't have the right to voice its opinion and its will?

This tells what happens when islamic countries dominate with political tendencies.

The point is, Australians should be free to voice their choices without any threats, as long as they are not sending troops or destroying people which they are not.

@Nihonjin1051, please see what you are inviting (carrying our discussion from other threads). Again, I as a well wisher of Japan will do my best to make you and the rest of Japan see the point. All Indians will. Though you and Chinese don't like each other, but they are very right in this matter.

We don't cling to shit.

Move on.

We are Pakistanis and that's it.

But according to Kaan here, isn't it wrong for you to call yourself of a particular nation?

He just said that Islam had no concept of nationalism or countries and that all are to identify with each other as one. So why have a separate country at all? Why not merge with Middle East? I speak hypothetically of course.

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

He just said that Islam had no concept of nationalism or countries and that all are to identify with each other as one. So why have a separate country at all? Why not merge with Middle East? I speak hypothetically of course.

He is right.

Nationalism is a new concept to Muslims.

Also, Muslims are a part of one nation--Ummah. You already know it, don't you?

Regarding countries, its about politics. As of now, Islamic nation lives in many different countries..Just like there are other examples. For example, "Russians"--though one ethnic nation--lives in different countries. So do Germans etc.

Anyways, stop your non-stoppable hatred towards Muslims. Get a life or a girlfriend.

 

[Tshering22]

He is right.

Nationalism is a new concept to Muslims.

Also, Muslims are a part of one nation--Ummah. You already know it, don't you?

Regarding countries, its about politics. As of now, Islamic nation lives in many different countries..Just like there are other examples. For example, "Russians"--though one ethnic nation--lives in different countries. So do Germans etc.

So which simply means that there is no such thing as Ummah. There are different muslim countries and they have same conflicts as any two non-muslim countries do; whether within one national border or between two. This is just a figment of your imagination.

Anyways, stop your non-stoppable hatred towards Muslims. Get a life or a girlfriend.

I am married and quite happy.

May you need to stop living in an imaginary country (your second flag) that doesn't exist except in the fantasy of the likes of you.
Governing a paper-drawn nation is usually a part of role-playing games.

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

So which simply means that there is no such thing as Ummah. There are different muslim countries and they have same conflicts as any two non-muslim countries do; whether within one national border or between two. This is just a figment of your imagination.

Dumbo,

The concept of 'Islamic Nation' or "Ummah" has been part of Islamic imagination of reality since the very beginning. You are too dumb to understand that.

Moreover, "One Nation" or "One people" can live in multiple states....similarly, one ethnicity can live in multiple states.

Borders are human construct and they have been changing since thousands of years.

Why are you so butt-hurt that Muslims consider themselves to be a part of Ummah? If you aren't butthurt, then why you keep coming back to this topic again and again in different threads?

What a loser

I am married and quite happy.

When you have children, give them good education and morals...so they don't become idiotic anti-Muslim bigot like your pathetic self.

 

[asad71]

It is a know fact Mughals treated Punjabi muslims the worst out of any group. He gave Punjabi Hindus (yes Hindus) precendent over them. Mughals brought many Hindus and Jains into the Royal court, many Pathans and Iranians, yet he brought no Punjabi muslim. You cling to a people that loathed you.

1.During the Mughal era the Muslims were not identified as Punjabi, Bengalee,Hyderabadi,etc. The only subdivision would be Mughal-Uzbegh and Afghan-Persian. In western Hindustan the Mughal-Uzbeghs dominated. In the east the Afghan-Persians.

2. Muslim rulers not only in Hindustan but all over treated the non-Muslims well, taking them into govt jobs and even in the military.

 

[bronxbull]

Dumbo,

The concept of 'Islamic Nation' or "Ummah" has been part of Islamic imagination of reality since the very beginning. You are too dumb to understand that.

Moreover, "One Nation" or "One people" can live in multiple states....similarly, one ethnicity can live in multiple states.

Borders are human construct and they have been changing since thousands of years.

Why are you so butt-hurt that Muslims consider themselves to be a part of Ummah? If you aren't butthurt, then why you keep coming back to this topic again and again in different threads?

What a loser



When you have children, give them good education and morals...so they don't become idiotic anti-Muslim bigot like your pathetic self.

what is imagination of reality? imaging how reality should be?

hahahaha.

we ll teach our children to stay away from sullas.

 

[Tshering22]

Dumbo,

The concept of 'Islamic Nation' or "Ummah" has been part of Islamic imagination of reality since the very beginning. You are too dumb to understand that.

Moreover, "One Nation" or "One people" can live in multiple states....similarly, one ethnicity can live in multiple states.

Borders are human construct and they have been changing since thousands of years.

Why are you so butt-hurt that Muslims consider themselves to be a part of Ummah? If you aren't butthurt, then why you keep coming back to this topic again and again in different threads?

What a loser

Today the concept of nation means a definite territory with its citizens and having its own systems in place. If that is something you cannot associate with your medieval mindset, then you simply have to state in English that Muslims are one religion living in different countries.

Is that so difficult?

When you have children, give them good education and morals...so they don't become idiotic anti-Muslim bigot like your pathetic self.

For all that vitriol you have spilled, here. I am taking lines from your very book that you believe to spread peace. Just the English translation:

@Nihonjin1051 san, here again.

I will neither say anything against any holy book nor say in support of any holy book.

But read this and tell me yourself:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)".

(so anyone worshipping any other form of divine is equal to a wrong-doer? Which means if a man has helped the poor, done good deeds, saved lives, educated the illiterate etc, and he is a polytheist, does it mean he is equal to a criminal who has done wrong against a society? Why?)

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

(Why? What makes you think your way is the only true way? Why should you go and preach to some African that he is wrong and if he refuses kill him? What harm has he done to you?)

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Please prove me wrong here. And don't give me 'interpreted wrong' nonsense.

Yes I will give good education and morals to my children just like my culture has been giving for thousands of years.

We don't need knowledge of peace from you at least.

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

Today the concept of nation means a definite territory with its citizens and having its own systems in place. If that is something you cannot associate with your medieval mindset, then you simply have to state in English that Muslims are one religion living in different countries.

Is that so difficult?

I think that you are getting confused between the concept of "nation" and "state" ...

Jews for example are a 'nation'---a 'specific' peoples---whether from Russia or Morocco...They regard themselves as part of one, larger Jewish nation.

Israel is the "state" of Jewish peoples.

Similarly, Muslims consider themselves the part of wider 'Islamic peoples'.....but there are many "states" of Muslims.

I can explain this thing to you in greater detail if you wish. I studied anthropology of religions. It is a "structural build-up" of religions that construct believers' imagination of themselves.

As I said, I'll explain this to you sometime later...

But lets go towards more important thing...

@Nihonjin1051 san, here again.

I will neither say anything against any holy book nor say in support of any holy book.

But read this and tell me yourself:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)".

(so anyone worshipping any other form of divine is equal to a wrong-doer? Which means if a man has helped the poor, done good deeds, saved lives, educated the illiterate etc, and he is a polytheist, does it mean he is equal to a criminal who has done wrong against a society? Why?)

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

(Why? What makes you think your way is the only true way? Why should you go and preach to some African that he is wrong and if he refuses kill him? What harm has he done to you?)
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Please prove me wrong here. And don't give me 'interpreted wrong' nonsense.

Yes I will give good education and morals to my children just like my culture has been giving for thousands of years.

We don't need knowledge of peace from you at least.

Let me clarify everything to you. Read carefully now if you are honest.

Hate is not good for any person. I want to assure you that Muslims do not hate non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Islam does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. If this was the case, Islam would not have been followed by 1/4th of humanity across hundreds of cultures all over the world.

The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an says about the prohibition of murder:

وَلاَ تَقْتُلُوا النَّفْسَ الَّتِي حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلاَّ بِالْحَقِّ ذَلِكُمْ وَصَّاكُمْ بِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

"..Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom." (al-An'am 6:151)

and Allah says in the Qur'an:

وَلاَ تَقْتُلُوا النَّفْسَ الَّتِي حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلاَّ بِالْحَقِّ وَمَنْ قُتِلَ مَظْلُومًا فَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا لِوَلِيِّهِ سُلْطَانًا فَلاَ يُسْرِفْ فِي الْقَتْلِ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مَنصُورًا

"Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)" (al-Isra' 17:33)

According to the Qur'an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See al-Ma'idah 5:32)

However, your question is valid then how come the Qur'an says:

"kill them wherever you find them…" as it is mentioned in Surah al-Baqarah 2:191 and Surah al-Nisa' 4:89. The answer is simple and that is you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Fair enough, right?

Lets read the full text and see what is said:

وَقَاتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ الَّذِينَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ وَلاَ تَعْتَدُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُعْتَدِينَ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَخْرِجُوهُمْ مِنْ حَيْثُ أَخْرَجُوكُمْ وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنْ الْقَتْلِ وَلاَ تُقَاتِلُوهُمْ عِنْدَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ حَتَّى يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِيهِ فَإِنْ قَاتَلُوكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ كَذَلِكَ جَزَاءُ الْكَافِرِينَ فَإِنْ انتَهَوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ لِلَّهِ فَإِنْ انتَهَوْا فَلاَ عُدْوَانَ إِلاَّ عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَاتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنْ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُوا عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." (al-Baqarah 2:190-194)

For your second quotation also read the full text:

وَدُّوا لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُوا فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاءً فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ حَتَّى يُهَاجِرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدْتُمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلاَ نَصِيرًا إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ يَصِلُونَ إِلَى قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِيثَاقٌ أَوْ جَاءُوكُمْ حَصِرَتْ صُدُورُهُمْ أَنْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ أَوْ يُقَاتِلُوا قَوْمَهُمْ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَسَلَّطَهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ فَلَقَاتَلُوكُمْ فَإِنْ اعْتَزَلُوكُمْ فَلَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ وَأَلْقَوْا إِلَيْكُمْ السَّلَمَ فَمَا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سَبِيلاً سَتَجِدُونَ آخَرِينَ يُرِيدُونَ أَنْ يَأْمَنُوكُمْ وَيَأْمَنُوا قَوْمَهُمْ كُلَّ مَا رُدُّوا إِلَى الْفِتْنَةِ أُرْكِسُوا فِيهَا فَإِنْ لَمْ يَعْتَزِلُوكُمْ وَيُلْقُوا إِلَيْكُمْ السَّلَمَ وَيَكُفُّوا أَيْدِيَهُمْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأُوْلَئِكُمْ جَعَلْنَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانًا مُبِينًا

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. (Al-Nisa' 4:89-91)

Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one any where? These verses were revealed by Allah to Prophet Muhammad at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis (Quraish wars). They were threatening the nascent Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the "terrorist". These verses are not a permission for "terrorism" but they are a warning against the "terrorists." But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

So specifically painting Islam/Muslims as crazy fanatics either shows that you don't have much command on the subject, or it shows that you really hate Muslims just like Germans hated Jews and for that, nothing can be done about that. One can only wish that bigoted hate is flushed out of people's hearts.

what is imagination of reality? imaging how reality should be?

hahahaha.

we ll teach our children to stay away from sullas.

You don't seem very educated to be honest.

We ALL imagine reality around us. There is no "one, fixed" reality.

Different cultures, civilizations have their own imagination of the world around them.

Anyways...

 

[Tshering22]

I think that you are getting confused between the concept of "nation" and "state" ...

Jews for example are a 'nation'---a 'specific' peoples---whether from Russia or Morocco...They regard themselves as part of one, larger Jewish nation.

Israel is the "state" of Jewish peoples.

Similarly, Muslims consider themselves the part of wider 'Islamic peoples'.....but there are many "states" of Muslims.\

I can explain this thing to you in greater detail if you wish. I studied anthropology of religions. It is a "structural build-up" of religions that construct believers' imagination of themselves.

As I said, I'll explain this to you sometime later...

But lets go towards more important thing...

Thanks for taking the pain to explain. Sadly the actions committed are very reminiscent of the incomplete verse that I seem to have written rather than the complete one. In the sense, there is a problem against non-muslim communities in general. Otherwise tell me, why would even the Chinese have issues with them? Or the Thais? Or Filipinos? Or any other countries that we discuss so often?

Europe was the leading continent in general to welcome muslim immigrants particularly the Turks for Germany where they successfully emerged as leading expats. But other than that, why is it that suddenly there has been an increased spike of violence in the last two decades?

Even within India, there was no such negativity during my childhood. Today more than three decades later, it is a very tense environment.


My and surely everyone's concern here is to stem jihadi radicalism and rioting against non-muslims that's all. We live with multiple communities all over the world. There is no good in getting violent.