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Islamic Republic and Hindutva

SoulSpokesman

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https://dailytimes.com.pk/458285/islamic-republic-and-hindutva/

At the cost of repeating myself, it is important to state certain basic facts at the outset. Jinnah was the only politician to be called the Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity and once stated frankly that he was an Indian first second and last. This was how it was for most of his career till the last decade of his life in which he began to champion the demand for Pakistan. So what happened? Well he had begun to see the undercurrent of Hindu majoritarianism and tried to warn Gandhi and Nehru against it. Gandhi was unconcerned and Nehru basically saw Jinnah as an anglicised gentleman who was out of touch with the ground realities. They made a terrible miscalculation by not coming to an arrangement with Jinnah when he gave them opportunities to do just that in 1928, 1937 and 1946.

When one criticizes Gandhi or Nehru, it is not to suggest that they were intolerant Hindu bigots but rather that they failed to appreciate how divided the Indian society was and what it would mean when majoritarian trends take over. Nehru tried to hold back the tide of communal majoritarianism but his performance was patchy, especially with his government’s actions in Hyderabad in September 1948 and in Kashmir in August 1953. The truth was that the more India democratized strictly on the basis of one man one vote, the more these fissures would emerge. As Congress – far from perfect and at best soft Hindutva- lost power, the real representative trends of caste Hindu domination took over and in 2014 India had Modi-raj.

Pakistan did not fare any better- in fact it turned out to be infinitely worse. Created as the result of a minority’s demand, it soon discarded Jinnah’s repeated invocations for what can only be described as a secular state and slipped into majoritarianism far worse than what Jinnah had apprehended in United India. In 1956 we became an Islamic Republic, the world’s first of its kind, and then in 1973 we added Islam as the state religion. The offices of the President and Prime Minister were closed to Non-Muslims. In essence Non-Muslims were relegated to second class status and after General Zia ulHaq took over, they effectively became third class citizens at best. One particular group, the one even our Prime Minister is too scared to name, was systematically disenfranchised and for all practical purposes is stateless. India might have been a majoritarian state and Modi may represent the worst of that majoritarianism, but even in 2019, India has not moved along that path even a fraction of the way.

So it is extraordinary that the President of Pakistan, the great dentist Arif Alvi, can give an interview to a Canadian news outlet and suggest without any sense of irony that secularity of India is being burnt. For His Excellency it is submitted that Pakistan seems to have begun to burn its own secularity in March 1949 with the Objectives’ Resolution. By the 1980s, Pakistan spread those ashes in the Indus river and for all practical purposes became a full blown theocracy. How then can President Alvi and Prime Minister Khan complain about the demise of Indian secularism? How can Islamic Republic which forecloses the right of Non-Muslim Pakistanis from becoming President or Prime Minister complain about India’s treatment of its minorities? How can you complain about Hindutva when you are yourself an Islamic Republic which denotes an exclusivist ideology that presupposes only Muslims have the right to govern Pakistan?

Prime Minister Khan tried to answer that in his national address last week. The only interpretation of his explanation possible is that in his view it is okay for Pakistan to be an Islamic Republic but not for India to be Hindu Republic because Islam is obviously better than Hinduism. At least Maulana Maududi and other Ulema were fairer than Prime Minister Khan, when they conceded to Munir-Kayani Commission in the 1950s that they wanted an Islamic State even if India became a Hindu state based on laws of Manu and Muslims were mistreated in India. That is a consistent vision – we will persecute our minorities and you may persecute your minorities. Of course this goes against the very grain of the Lahore Resolution, which had spoken of minorities as a mutual undertaking by respective majorities in the two units. What is happening in Kashmir is nothing less than an attempt at genocide and ethnic cleansing of Muslims there. Yet I think one of the reasons India, still secular and democratic on paper, can get away with it is because Pakistan is rightly viewed by the world as a bankrupt theocracy. For the Muslim only President and the Muslim only Prime Minister of Pakistan to cry foul about the ideology of Hindu supremacy in India is nothing less than rank hypocrisy. Only a modern, secular democratic Pakistan based on Jinnah’s 11 August speech can fight for Kashmir and win it. That obviously is not going to happen at least in our lifetimes and therefore we can pretty much kiss Kashmir goodbye. No world tribunal will ever take our complaints on the matter seriously. The best outcome in this scenario would be for the Indian Supreme Court to strike down Modi government’s action of 5 August. Things will then go back to as they were and Pakistan can go back to persecuting Non-Muslims in Pakistan without too big a burden on its conscience. Meanwhile India can slowly slide into the same majoritarian trap that we did decades ago. The world is never going to be a better place for the people who were unfortunate enough to be born in this subcontinent. Tragic but this is unfortunately the world we live in.

Regards
 
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I agree with him, Pakistan in current state shouldn't talk about secularism. India at least on paper was secular. Though congress played vote bank politics just for muslim votes in return of false sense of security. Indian muslims didn't ask for education or jobs in return and continued to live in gutters. So forget about any of them becoming PM despite being 15% of population. In Pakistan law of president must be muslim was quite pointless with 98% of population.

Basically our best bet is Kashmiris going insane and India getting desperate. World will not listen to religious theocracy like Pakistan.
 
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I think its hypocritical for us or our President to lecture sanghis or anyone on where there "secularism" is going, we should highlight their treatment of minorities especially Muslims.
 
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I think its hypocritical for us or our President to lecture sanghis or anyone on where there "secularism" is going, we should highlight their treatment of minorities especially Muslims.

Exactly, no point reminding India about their secular past. Even if flawed was secular on paper. Pakistan can't say that despite overall record of treating minorities being better then India.

In a western world where now we are crying about Kashmir, this matter a lot. For them Pakistan is treating its minorities as 2nd class citizens. Even if they live in relative peace vs Indian minorities.
 
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@Kabira @Max

Kabira bhai/ Max,

Much as I love Yasser Pai, I must disagree with him here and agree with Dentist sb and Immy Pai. It was India's choice to be a secular nation; and Pakistans choice to be an Islamic one. India (and any other secular nation) must be criticised for deviating from secular principles; Pakistan's criticism, if any, should be if it deviates from its Islamic ones.

Regards
 
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bharat was never secular, inbuilt inferiority complexes of Hindus and their urge to subdue Muslims to settle the score of humiliations was realized by Muslim leadership long ago, for us this tag of secular bharat was always deception, President should refrain from glorifying it.
 
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bharat was never secular, inbuilt inferiority complexes of Hindus and their urge to subdue Muslims to settle the score of humiliations was realized by Muslim leadership long ago, for us this tag of secular bharat was always deception, President should refrain from glorifying it.

They fooled Kashmiris though along with Indian muslims back in the day. When all these people could have been free in their own land.
 
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https://dailytimes.com.pk/458285/islamic-republic-and-hindutva/

At the cost of repeating myself, it is important to state certain basic facts at the outset. Jinnah was the only politician to be called the Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity and once stated frankly that he was an Indian first second and last. This was how it was for most of his career till the last decade of his life in which he began to champion the demand for Pakistan. So what happened? Well he had begun to see the undercurrent of Hindu majoritarianism and tried to warn Gandhi and Nehru against it. Gandhi was unconcerned and Nehru basically saw Jinnah as an anglicised gentleman who was out of touch with the ground realities. They made a terrible miscalculation by not coming to an arrangement with Jinnah when he gave them opportunities to do just that in 1928, 1937 and 1946.

When one criticizes Gandhi or Nehru, it is not to suggest that they were intolerant Hindu bigots but rather that they failed to appreciate how divided the Indian society was and what it would mean when majoritarian trends take over. Nehru tried to hold back the tide of communal majoritarianism but his performance was patchy, especially with his government’s actions in Hyderabad in September 1948 and in Kashmir in August 1953. The truth was that the more India democratized strictly on the basis of one man one vote, the more these fissures would emerge. As Congress – far from perfect and at best soft Hindutva- lost power, the real representative trends of caste Hindu domination took over and in 2014 India had Modi-raj.

Pakistan did not fare any better- in fact it turned out to be infinitely worse. Created as the result of a minority’s demand, it soon discarded Jinnah’s repeated invocations for what can only be described as a secular state and slipped into majoritarianism far worse than what Jinnah had apprehended in United India. In 1956 we became an Islamic Republic, the world’s first of its kind, and then in 1973 we added Islam as the state religion. The offices of the President and Prime Minister were closed to Non-Muslims. In essence Non-Muslims were relegated to second class status and after General Zia ulHaq took over, they effectively became third class citizens at best. One particular group, the one even our Prime Minister is too scared to name, was systematically disenfranchised and for all practical purposes is stateless. India might have been a majoritarian state and Modi may represent the worst of that majoritarianism, but even in 2019, India has not moved along that path even a fraction of the way.

So it is extraordinary that the President of Pakistan, the great dentist Arif Alvi, can give an interview to a Canadian news outlet and suggest without any sense of irony that secularity of India is being burnt. For His Excellency it is submitted that Pakistan seems to have begun to burn its own secularity in March 1949 with the Objectives’ Resolution. By the 1980s, Pakistan spread those ashes in the Indus river and for all practical purposes became a full blown theocracy. How then can President Alvi and Prime Minister Khan complain about the demise of Indian secularism? How can Islamic Republic which forecloses the right of Non-Muslim Pakistanis from becoming President or Prime Minister complain about India’s treatment of its minorities? How can you complain about Hindutva when you are yourself an Islamic Republic which denotes an exclusivist ideology that presupposes only Muslims have the right to govern Pakistan?

Prime Minister Khan tried to answer that in his national address last week. The only interpretation of his explanation possible is that in his view it is okay for Pakistan to be an Islamic Republic but not for India to be Hindu Republic because Islam is obviously better than Hinduism. At least Maulana Maududi and other Ulema were fairer than Prime Minister Khan, when they conceded to Munir-Kayani Commission in the 1950s that they wanted an Islamic State even if India became a Hindu state based on laws of Manu and Muslims were mistreated in India. That is a consistent vision – we will persecute our minorities and you may persecute your minorities. Of course this goes against the very grain of the Lahore Resolution, which had spoken of minorities as a mutual undertaking by respective majorities in the two units. What is happening in Kashmir is nothing less than an attempt at genocide and ethnic cleansing of Muslims there. Yet I think one of the reasons India, still secular and democratic on paper, can get away with it is because Pakistan is rightly viewed by the world as a bankrupt theocracy. For the Muslim only President and the Muslim only Prime Minister of Pakistan to cry foul about the ideology of Hindu supremacy in India is nothing less than rank hypocrisy. Only a modern, secular democratic Pakistan based on Jinnah’s 11 August speech can fight for Kashmir and win it. That obviously is not going to happen at least in our lifetimes and therefore we can pretty much kiss Kashmir goodbye. No world tribunal will ever take our complaints on the matter seriously. The best outcome in this scenario would be for the Indian Supreme Court to strike down Modi government’s action of 5 August. Things will then go back to as they were and Pakistan can go back to persecuting Non-Muslims in Pakistan without too big a burden on its conscience. Meanwhile India can slowly slide into the same majoritarian trap that we did decades ago. The world is never going to be a better place for the people who were unfortunate enough to be born in this subcontinent. Tragic but this is unfortunately the world we live in.

Regards

First two paragraphs were great, but then the real focus of the article revealed itself.

“My poor (imagined) secular nation became Islamic, my Ahmadiyyas were denied the right to call themselves Muslims, Pres and PM is only reserved for Muslims...”

“Pakistan should let the Kashmiris die alone without any support because Zia came to power and ruined us.”

“Give up and forget Kashmir.”

“Genocidal, mass-murdering citizenship-revoking cow lynching fascist India is still better than us, because we blacked out mosque from Ahmadiyya temple signs.”

These English liberal writers are a disease. I hope Pakistan takes some action against the Daily Times.
 
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bharat was never secular, inbuilt inferiority complexes of Hindus and their urge to subdue Muslims to settle the score of humiliations was realized by Muslim leadership long ago, for us this tag of secular bharat was always deception, President should refrain from glorifying it.
True. Once a slave. Always a slave.

Islam is obviously better than Hinduism.
Obviously.
 
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@AfrazulMandal

Afraz bhai,

Obviously.

Yes. That Islam is better than Hinduism will be obvious to any true Muslim. If it was otherwise, the person concerned would either be a non Muslim or an untrue Muslim.

Regards
 
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:rofl:

Another idiotic article by the irrelevant and desperate YLH.

Hindutva is a fascist idealogy based on unnatural mythical make-beliefs and hatred of Muslims out of humiliation.

Islamic Republic is none of those things. Unlike Hinduism (or any other religion for that matter), Islam has been inextricably involved in statecraft since its very inception! Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was himself a stateman who laid the foundations of state of Medina and governed it. The concept of 'Islamic state' has been there since 1400 years. That is why Islamic State(s) have existed in the world for past 1410 years continuously. Islam has a very well developed legal, political, and social framework for state building, which has been put to practice in various forms for centuries and centuries. Even today, you see multiple Islamic States and Republics across the world---from Africa, to Middle-East, to Asia-Pacific. Why? Yes, because unlike other religions, Islam is unique in how it relates to legal, social, and political fabric of the states it exists in. This has been studied quite extensively fellas. Try to read a book or two instead of writing meangingless gibberish on the forum all the time...Google the Brookings Scholar Shadi Hamid and read his work for a starter...

Show me anything remotely similar in Hinduism? You can't. Hinduism isn't even organized religion. Its bunch of different and disorganized religious dogmas all put together under a name called Hinduism. It has no tools, instructions, or legacy of any state-building as it was never meant to be the organizing force of any state. Modern Hindutva is just a reactionary movement to get back to Muslims and is driven by Muslim hatred. There is no precedent for a Hindu state or even an empire (Hindu-ruled empire does not equal to 'Hindu Empire') in world history

@SoulSpokesman @Kabira

I think its hypocritical for us or our President to lecture sanghis or anyone on where there "secularism" is going, we should highlight their treatment of minorities especially Muslims.

Its not that. Read my post from the top (above where I quoted you)

We are just high lighting the fact that Modi and RSS are going against their own established constitution in order to act on their hatred of minorities (Muslims) more effectively. It is a classic sign of fascism!

No one is lecturing anyone on anything. We are just highlighting the rise of indian fascism based on historical victimhood and humiliation.
 
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@Kabira @Max

Kabira bhai/ Max,

Much as I love Yasser Pai, I must disagree with him here and agree with Dentist sb and Immy Pai. It was India's choice to be a secular nation; and Pakistans choice to be an Islamic one. India (and any other secular nation) must be criticised for deviating from secular principles; Pakistan's criticism, if any, should be if it deviates from its Islamic ones.

Regards
But why should anyone criticize? If pak deviates and becomes secular india should not criticize and vice versa

:rofl:

Another idiotic article by the irrelevant and desperate YLH.

Hindutva is a fascist idealogy based on unnatural mythical make-beliefs and hatred of Muslims out of humiliation.

Islamic Republic is none of those things. Unlike Hinduism (or any other religion for that matter), Islam has been inextricably involved in statecraft since its very inception! Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was himself a stateman who laid the foundations of state of Medina and governed it. The concept of 'Islamic state' has been there since 1400 years. That is why Islamic State(s) have existed in the world for past 1410 years continuously. Islam has a very well developed legal, political, and social framework for state building, which has been put to practice in various forms for centuries and centuries. Even today, you see multiple Islamic States and Republics across the world---from Africa, to Middle-East, to Asia-Pacific. Why? Yes, because unlike other religions, Islam is unique in how it relates to legal, social, and political fabric of the states it exists in. This has been studied quite extensively fellas. Try to read a book or two instead of writing meangingless gibberish on the forum all the time...Google the Brookings Scholar Shadi Hamid and read his work for a starter...

Show me anything remotely similar in Hinduism? You can't. Hinduism isn't even organized religion. Its bunch of different and disorganized religious dogmas all put together under a name called Hinduism. It has no tools, instructions, or legacy of any state-building as it was never meant to be the organizing force of any state. Modern Hindutva is just a reactionary movement to get back to Muslims and is driven by Muslim hatred. There is no precedent for a Hindu state or even an empire (Hindu-ruled empire does not equal to 'Hindu Empire') in world history

@SoulSpokesman @Kabira



Its not that. Read my post from the top (above where I quoted you)

We are just high lighting the fact that Modi and RSS are going against their own established constitution in order to act on their hatred of minorities (Muslims) more effectively. It is a classic sign of fascism!

No one is lecturing anyone on anything. We are just highlighting the rise of indian fascism based on historical victimhood and humiliation.
Nowhere has Modi or govt gone against constitution. India will always be secular. The problem is Kashir wants to be Islamic and we will not allow that .
 
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But why should anyone criticize? If pak deviates and becomes secular india should not criticize and vice versa

Pakistan won't be becoming 'secular' in our life times. Pakistan will become what it was....an Islamic Republic with more space for some liberal hipsters than say Iran or Saudi Arabia. Our non-Muslim minorities will be protected as always

Nowhere has Modi or govt gone against constitution. India will always be secular. The problem is Kashir wants to be Islamic and we will not allow that .

Yeah sure, "secular" where Hindus lynch Muslims on camera and get away, where minorities are oppressed and are forced to live according to majority (Hindu) wishes, and where your interior minister explicitly gives preference to indian religionists over Muslims when it comes to NRC and citizenship amendment bill.

Secularism does not mean constitution is secular. It means legal system, government, and society is secular. india under RSS' hindutva is increasingly a living hell and no way near 'secular'....

Lynchings have become so ubiquitous that just today, a poor doctor was lynched to death by a Mob in Assam. They recorded the ordeal on camera. Doctor was 73 years old...

Just few days ago, a Muslim was lynched by Hindu mob.

Such things happen in Pakistan like 1 in every 20 year or so. in india, this is regular.
 
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Pakistan won't be becoming 'secular' in our life times. Pakistan will become what it was....an Islamic Republic with more space for some liberal hipsters than say Iran or Saudi Arabia. Our non-Muslim minorities will be protected as always



Yeah sure, "secular" where Hindus lynch Muslims on camera and get away, where minorities are oppressed and are forced to live according to majority (Hindu) wishes, and where your interior minister explicitly gives preference to indian religionists over Muslims when it comes to NRC and citizenship amendment bill.

Secularism does not mean constitution is secular. It means legal system, government, and society is secular. india under RSS' hindutva is increasingly a living hell and no way near 'secular'....

Lynchings have become so ubiquitous that just today, a poor doctor was lynched to death by a Mob in Assam. They recorded the ordeal on camera. Doctor was 73 years old...

Just few days ago, a Muslim was lynched by Hindu mob.

Such things happen in Pakistan like 1 in every 20 year or so. in india, this is regular.
The assam lynching was not religious . As usual false narratives.
Secular just means that govt will not differentiate on religion. We follow that. Slowly lynchers arenbeing punished. We don't have the indian govt have a blasphemy law . We don't kidnap minority women and forcibly convert them.
If pak is Islamic so be it. So don't talk about secular countries because u don't know the meaning of secularism.
 
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I agree with him, Pakistan in current state shouldn't talk about secularism. India at least on paper was secular. Though congress played vote bank politics just for muslim votes in return of false sense of security. Indian muslims didn't ask for education or jobs in return and continued to live in gutters. So forget about any of them becoming PM despite being 15% of population. In Pakistan law of president must be muslim was quite pointless with 98% of population.

Basically our best bet is Kashmiris going insane and India getting desperate. World will not listen to religious theocracy like Pakistan.

Excuse me. Who in religious theocracy is raising voices for Kashmir!!
Keep your Secularism mumbo jumbo to yourself, it doesn't exists in the real world.
There is no secularism in the great democracy of "USA" either.
Only 30/40 years ago they were lynching black people.
 
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