Islamic culturalization of India since 1947.

[fitpOsitive]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

View attachment 738011


Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

I don't understand why you have such an enmity towards dark skinned Muslims of India? I mean every now and again you come up with something racial....
Was she Indian muslim? Tell me how much she caused a loss to you? I am ready to pay that...

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I don't understand why you have such an enmity towards dark skinned Muslims of India? I mean every now and again you come up with something racial....
Was she Indian muslim? Tell me how much she caused a loss to you? I am ready to pay that...

Honestly I don't have issue with skin colour at all. Some Indian's from PDF even have my phone number and we chat. Where I trip is when religion ius used in a sterile manner to define us all and I find that particularly comes from that demography you described. I suppose that is my 'beef'. It has a political tangent to it. I want Pakistan to be seen and described as it is. Primarily a union of four/five provinces clusterd around unique ethnic groups who gave the name "PAKSTAN".

Not as a Muslim ghetto or a huge Indian Muslim refugee camp. I hope you understand. I take issue with their culture be defined as all of Pakistan.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

This is India's centre of Population...would love to know the same for Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan....distance between centre of populations would finally show which cultures are closest to eachother


The town of Nainpur looks like the average Indian

Nainpur - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Where is the center of population of India?

Answer (1 of 2): Since this statistic does not seem to be documented/publicly available, I computed the centre of population using district population data (List of districts of India) and Google geo-location tools: [Each spot is a district coloured by its total population] According to this ca...

www.quora.com

India is slightly east shifted...but almost dot in between north and south



I am guessing Pakistan would be South-East shifted

PDF tech bros should be able to figure it out with district level population stats...come on boys, let's get down to work





Here is for europe...Germany is slightly closer to Danemark compared to France...barely

Here is population density Pakistan.....I am guessing Pakistan population centre would be somewhere south of Lahore

But that doesnot tell the whole story...the distance between population centre of Afghanistan and Pakistan would be much closer than the distance between the population centre of Pakistan and that of India

https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/PAK749_Pakistan_Landscan_Population_A3_L_20130826.pdf

roughly the distance between the Salang Pass and Bahawalpur vs the distance between Bahawalpur and Nainpur

 

[ZAMURD]

This is India's centre of Population...would love to know the same for Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan....distance between centre of populations would finally show which cultures are closest to eachother


The town of Nainpur looks like the average Indian

Nainpur - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Where is the center of population of India?

Answer (1 of 2): Since this statistic does not seem to be documented/publicly available, I computed the centre of population using district population data (List of districts of India) and Google geo-location tools: [Each spot is a district coloured by its total population] According to this ca...

www.quora.com

India is slightly east shifted...but almost dot in between north and south



I am guessing Pakistan would be South-East shifted

PDF tech bros should be able to figure it out with district level population stats...come on boys, let's get down to work





Here is for europe...Germany is slightly closer to Danemark compared to France...barely

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

View attachment 738637

wow i was correct in my prediction then....and yes this map is the definite proof...that Pakistanis share way more with Afghans than they do with Indians...Surprisingly Pakistanis are way closer to Indians than they are with Iranians

Indians are closest to Nepalis

1) Indians donot have best of relations with Nepal and

2) Pakistan doesnot have best of relations with Afghanistan...Hahahaha

3) Russians are closest to Ukrainians and they are at eachother's throats

4) The avg. human being looks like a Rajput..Indians and blacks manage to completely erase any Mongoloid features

your pic in just bigger resolution if people really wanna play with it

 

[ZAMURD]

wow i was correct in my prediction then....and yes this map is the definite proof...that Pakistanis share way more with Afghans than they do with Indians...Surprisingly Pakistanis are way closer to Indians than they are with Iranians

Indians are closest to Nepalis

Indians donot have best of relations with Nepal and Pakistan doesnot have best of relations with Afghanistan...Hahahaha

your pic in just bigger resolution if people really wanna play with it

only sri lanka seems closer to you.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

only sri lanka seems closer to you.

Our Neighbours ranked by the degree of seperation

1) Nepal (and its natural they serve in our Armed Forces)
2) Bhutan
3) Bangladesh
4) Pakistan
5) Myanmar
6) Sri Lanka
7) Maldives
8) China


@jamahir @Chhatrapati @UDAYCAMPUS @yuba @magra

 

[fitpOsitive]

Honestly I don't have issue with skin colour at all. Some Indian's from PDF even have my phone number and we chat. Where I trip is when religion ius used in a sterile manner to define us all and I find that particularly comes from that demography you described. I suppose that is my 'beef'. It has a political tangent to it. I want Pakistan to be seen and described as it is. Primarily a union of four/five provinces clusterd around unique ethnic groups who gave the name "PAKSTAN".

Not as a Muslim ghetto or a huge Indian Muslim refugee camp. I hope you understand. I take issue with their culture be defined as all of Pakistan.

View attachment 738630

I don't believe you. Come on, say it.. Your whole take is self contradictory.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I don't believe you. Come on, say it.. Your whole take is self contradictory.

If that is what you think, despite what I said, I can't force you to change your mind. So be it.

 

[Drizzt]

I don't believe you. Come on, say it.. Your whole take is self contradictory.

The problem is your people have a city but no countryside, it is like a tree with no roots. Turkey realized its strength lies in Asia, similarly your strength lies in South Asia. If there is peace with India in the future, you can leverage your ties for business, and strengthen your position in the city and nearby countryside.

 

[Bilal9]

On point.

In fact I was of the WRONG OPINION (as are many Pakistanis these day I am sure) that most of our wedding traditions (albeit Un-Islamic) were influenced by Indian culture due to close proximity but LITTLE DID I KNEW that most of those traditions such as rasm-e-hina, salami, baraat, groom on horse, doodh pilai, placing infant in Bride's lap, hiding groom's Shoes etc. all were brought from Bukhara and Samarqand by Muslim rulers (present day Uzbekistan).
We all know Hindu wedding is mostly 7 circles around fire.

Hindu weddings vary according to States/locations in India. Bengali Hindu weddings are very different from that in Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra for example. Been to a few.

Bengali Muslim weddings combine some elements of Turkish-Mongolian culture and also local traditions. Weddings are three days and sometime even five (if you have money).

I don't know a lot about women's clothing (there is no rhyme or reason really other than lightening my wallet by family members) but I'll take a stab at it,

Older women past 40 dress like this (middle class dress-casual).

Younger women below 25 wear more or less casual western clothes.

Dress-up clothes for younger women is all over the place...I found few that would pass muster for a post during Ramzan

Brides look like this,

Don't know if there are differences with Pakistani brides, if any.

Some Bengali folks also have interesting traditions where a pair of Rohu fish are given to the brides house from the grooms house. I found this to be quite amusing, with scaled down lungi/saree.

Guessing that this has probably to do with local practices, rather than Islamic tradition.

 

[jamahir]

Our Neighbours ranked by the degree of seperation

1) Nepal (and its natural they serve in our Armed Forces)
2) Bhutan
3) Bangladesh
4) Pakistan
5) Myanmar
6) Sri Lanka
7) Maldives
8) China


@jamahir @Chhatrapati @UDAYCAMPUS @yuba @magra

Maldives reminds me, and I am going off-topic, quite a few Hindi film and TV actors and actresses are going to Maldives for holiday and happily and decadently posing for pictures in half-nude state. And they are getting criticized for doing this while India is facing serious difficulties because of COVID.

There was one TV actress who flew to Dubai just for a photoshoot, spent money this way while many in India don't have money for food, let alone having difficulties in sourcing money to buy hospital treatment for COVID including the oxygen cylinders.

 

[Buddhistforlife]

Maldives reminds me, and I am going off-topic, quite a few Hindi film and TV actors and actresses are going to Maldives for holiday and happily and decadently posing for pictures in half-nude state. And they are getting criticized for doing this while India is facing serious difficulties because of COVID.

There was one TV actress who flew to Dubai just for a photoshoot, spent money this way while many in India don't have money for food, let alone having difficulties in sourcing money to buy hospital treatment for COVID including the oxygen cylinders.

Bollywood actors and actresses are filth. South Asians literally worships actors as gods.

In Western countries, people do not worship film actors. People in Western nations enjoy movies and that's it.

 

[jamahir]

Bollywood actors and actresses are filth. South Asians literally worships actors as gods.

Many are that yes but there are some good Indian actors too. Like Sonu Sood who helped a lot those reverse migrants in Bombay last year. Or other actors like Siddharth, Prakash Rai and the actress Swara Bhaskar.

And in earlier decades there were Bollywood actors who were part of the Left movement.

In Western countries, people do not worship film actors. People in Western nations enjoy movies and that's it.

Well, in Western countries they worship sports stars : baseball players, basketball players, football players, wrestlers and boxers.

 

[magra]

Our Neighbours ranked by the degree of seperation

1) Nepal (and its natural they serve in our Armed Forces)
2) Bhutan
3) Bangladesh
4) Pakistan
5) Myanmar
6) Sri Lanka
7) Maldives
8) China


@jamahir @Chhatrapati @UDAYCAMPUS @yuba @magra

If ranked from most friendly to most hostile, I would change to as below
1) Bhutan (Indian armed forces responsible for their protection )
2) Nepal (Some Chinese influence lately )
3) BD (until Hasina's reign)
4) Maldives (if no coup happens )
5) SL
6) Myanmar (Junta is Chinese allied )
7) China
8) Pakistan