Islamic culturalization of India since 1947.

[INS_Vikrant]

Most of these culture and traditions are technically not islamic but Persian culture (and to a much lesser extent central Asian turkic culture) . These culture and traditions are vastly different from the original Islamic (Arabic) culture.
If you guys ever visit SE Asian Muslim countries like Indonesia you will see many of the stuffs people in subcontinent associate as being Islamic are not present there

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Bhartis are culture vultures in self denial.

 

[Sabretooth]

Show me central asian wedding examples that looks like south asian ones, then your theory will be true

Present day wedding ceremonies of central Asia may not exactly look like what they used to couple of centuries ago, due to heavy Russian influence but that doesn't negate the fact that the traditions I listed were brought by Mughals from Central Asia. Go read history and search Uzbek weddings on YouTube.

 

[Varunastra]

Present day wedding ceremonies of central Asia may not exactly look like what they used to couple of centuries ago, due to heavy Russian influence but that doesn't negate the fact that the traditions I listed were brought by Mughals from Central Asia. Go read history and search Uzbek weddings on YouTube.

I searched, just asian people wearing western clothings and getting married. What's common? It's a wedding, people are having fun, elders are giving blessings. Bas! Isse zyada kuch bhi nhi hai!

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

This old lady is how vast majority of Indian women dressed until the last 30 years before their clothing went through Islamic culturalization. Sari, large part of the body exposed. Very Hindu and similar to the statues you get on traditional Hindu temples.

View attachment 738247

good thread... I have answer

Higher participation of women in workforce led to increase in salwar kameez as it slightly more convenient to move around...especially getting up and down from buses...etc...now you may ask then why didnot Indian women go for western dress? well because Indian women had slight boyish build back in the 80s to roughly mid 2010s....and in western body hugging dress that would not give a flattering look....only with better medication, lessening of parasitic load, fumigation, nutrition, nutrient reinforced rice and wheat are the late millenial and genz Z women are starting to show the hip bulge that is so famous in European women....and these women go straight to western clothes in professional settings.......Saree still has a special place in weddings,other special occasions,rituals,some secular gatherings and celebrations

 

[-=virus=-]

As I have said this process has picked up pace over the lasdt decades. However why do Hindutwas cry on about "Muslims" when India has culturalized Islam?

What process ?

We're not appropriating any culture here, the Mughal past is part of our history and we have a big Muslim population now. Urdu originated here etc

Non of these are contingent on Islam. I am sure you heard of Sikh terorists, Naga terrorists etc And non-assimilation? They are Indian converts.

Didn't say it was..

however, a separate homeland for the Musalmans.. that's the original beef, right ?

those scars still run deep in the heartland.. or something

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What process ?

A good example and visibly obvious. 80% of Mumbai women were semi naked and the Sari was ubiquitous . Today the Sari is 20% and Shalwar Kameez with a decidely modest scarf draped has replaced in 80% of your women. Any doubts look at your old videos of Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkatta. Your women have gone from looking like Hindu temple damsels as seen on statues to women dressed like they do and did in Lahore.

Any doubts look at old videos of your cities from 1960s and 1970s.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

good thread... I have answer

Higher participation of women in workforce led to increase in salwar kameez as it slightly more convenient to move around...especially getting up and down from buses...etc...now you may ask then why didnot Indian women go for western dress? well because Indian women had slight boyish build back in the 80s to roughly mid 2010s....and in western body hugging dress that would not give a flattering look....only with better medication, lessening of parasitic load, fumigation, nutrition, nutrient reinforced rice and wheat are the late millenial and genz Z women are starting to show the hip bulge that is so famous in European women....and these women go straight to western clothes in professional settings.......Saree still has a special place in weddings,other special occasions,rituals,some secular gatherings and celebrations

Good post. Appreciate that you accept the gist of what I am saying. Rest of your countrymen are doing ostriches. For fcuks sakes one look at a old video from 1970s will show you Kolkata, Mumbai, Chennai will have swarms of youyr women dressed exactly like those Hindu temple state damsels.

Like this lady.

Now there is nothing remotely Islamic about this dress mode. They are entirely informed by Hinduism. This was the default in most, yes most of India until 1990 but in the last 30 years it has gone through a evolution. The shalwar Kameez was the default dress in Pakistan in 1970s. Thus India has changed to start looking like Pakistan. If you look at PIA you will see old uniform and it is shalwar kameez. Air India used Sari.

You raised some interesting reasons behind this process. I also agree that Indian women have began to bulge out and look very sexy. But I think there are other reasons at play which I will post later. Although I still give some weight to what you said.

 

[Drizzt]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

View attachment 738011


Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

We see what we want to see. I think it has more to do with Sari being tough to wear, 10x more than a tie, and Salwar Kameez(Punjabi Suit) being convenient and also make them ladies more mobile. If you notice Salwar Kameez is basically a type of T-shirt and pants. As for geometric patterns/floral design, easier for mechanized looms to make.

If you notice, men are also wearing mostly English/Western T Shirt and pants/jeans. No one wears headwear or turbans. Language has more English words. Everything in India is becoming more westernized, western influence is way more than Islamic.

Urdu words are due to Bollywood

 

[Maira La]

Quite ironically this Islamic culturalization actually leads to stronger Hindutva sentiments.

As Hindus find Pakistani-Afghan culture more familiar, it leads to reinforcing the Hindutva myth that all these lands are breakaway regions of some ancient Akhand Bharat entity.

Basically the more culturally closer you get, the more bitter becomes newer generations of Hindutva mob.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Quite ironically this Islamic culturalization actually leads to stronger Hindutva sentiments.

As Hindus find Pakistani-Afghan culture more familiar, it leads to reinforcing the Hindutva myth that all these lands are breakaway regions of some ancient Akhand Bharat entity.

Basically the more culturally closer you get, the more bitter becomes newer generations of Hindutva mob.

BS...Sri Lanka is not that familiar with Perso-Afghan culture..Sri Lanka is deeply Islamophobic.....same with Myanmar

 

[Varunastra]

Good post. Appreciate that you accept the gist of what I am saying. Rest of your countrymen are doing ostriches. For fcuks sakes one look at a old video from 1970s will show you Kolkata, Mumbai, Chennai will have swarms of youyr women dressed exactly like those Hindu temple state damsels.

View attachment 738336

View attachment 738337

Like this lady.


View attachment 738338

Now there is nothing remotely Islamic about this dress mode. They are entirely informed by Hinduism. This was the default in most, yes most of India until 1990 but in the last 30 years it has gone through a evolution. The shalwar Kameez was the default dress in Pakistan in 1970s. Thus India has changed to start looking like Pakistan. If you look at PIA you will see old uniform and it is shalwar kameez. Air India used Sari.

You raised some interesting reasons behind this process. I also agree that Indian women have began to bulge out and look very sexy. But I think there are other reasons at play which I will post later. Although I still give some weight to what you said.

We get that, saree/traditional Indian clothing as the most common form of dressing for Indian women is slowly becoming less popular (though still very much used though especially for special occasions and more in senior citizens), same for Indian men, no one wears a dhoti except for religious ceremonies nowadays(the age group will also be a factor in all this) , we are just saying why this preference was given like the ease of use, bollywood, western influences, Indians accepting them as part of own culture, etc. And it's not something about the superiority of one culture over another that I'm sure many would want to believe.

 

[Buddhistforlife]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

View attachment 738011


Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

I think it should not be a problem.

In Arab states like UAE, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, women can wear bikini and western clothing without facing problems.

Many Arab states allow selling consumption of pork. Moreover many lounges and clubs in Arab states are more luxurious than British and American clubs.

Similarly Diwali and Holi is celebrated widely in Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

Cultures and traditions changes its not permanent.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Indus Pakistan

Kaptaan sb,

Over a period of time, the whole world will become like South California.

Regards

 

[Buddhistforlife]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

View attachment 738011


Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

Mini skirts and Bikini is also not part of Indian culture but still Indians wear them so what's the fuss?