Islam is defined by its followers. We moderate Muslims must act

[VCheng]

This trolling may get you a few likes. Go ahead join the club.

Did I bring up secret agents with beards or did you?

================================

Seriously, such outlandish conspiracy theories are typical of the denial that runs deeps in the apologists for the extremists, and it fools no one.

 

[Selous]

Putting myself in a ordinary muslim's position. What are the options available?
people who say moderate muslims must do more, give some realistic suggestion.

Grab your Kalashnikov and lets roll...Allahu Akbar....damn shit....wrong forum

 

[Shot-Caller]

Did I bring up secret agents with beards or did you?

================================

Seriously, such outlandish conspiracy theories are typical of the denial that runs deeps in the apologists for the extremists, and it fools no one.

So you're saying there have never been people doing undercover missions or there have been no inside jobs in the past? There are people in all religions who go offtrack thinking they are following the right path there's no denying that, but unfair hate and criticism for actions of few wont be taken.

 

[livingdead]

Grab your Kalashnikov and lets roll...Allahu Akbar....damn shit....wrong forum

dont have one... all i got is ps3 and some violent games..

 

[VCheng]

So you're saying there have never been people doing undercover missions or there have been no inside jobs in the past? There are people in all religions who go offtrack thinking they are following the right path there's no denying that, but unfair hate and criticism for actions of few wont be taken.

I am saying that most of the murder and mayhem is being carried out in Muslim countries is by the Muslims themselves, and it is their own societies that have created these monsters with their own explicit and implicit support. It is also up to them to deal with this scourge or it will burn them all up.

 

[Turkish_FR]

A Muslim is basically anyone who believes in لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله (There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah), prays in the direction of the Qibla and eats our meat.

“Whoever prays as we pray, faces our qiblah, and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim who is under the protection of Allah and His Messenger” (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

There has been a long standing debate in Islam whether committing a sin makes you a non-Muslim or not. The mainstream viewpoint is as follows: Committing a sin (apart from shirk) does not make you a kafir nor does repeatedly committing those sins (this makes you a fasiq [evildoer]). However to openly and knowingly declare that a certain sin is not a sin...this is considered to make you a kafir.
Sis I agree with you that these non-Muslims and their lackeys are trying to change our deen into some mutated form under the guise of "moderate Islam"...that is why I said that there is no such thing as a "moderate Muslim".

Your hadith contradicts with what Allah says. Why you choose to believe in a story about the prophet while your Allah says just the opposite ?

So Satan is Muslim too ? He knows there is no God but Allah and he knows Muhammad is the prophet.

 

[Armstrong]

I see; so the major premise is 'Islam is defined by its followers'

And the minor premise is 'the vast majority of the Muslims are neither radicalized nor involved in acts of terrorism'

Whats the conclusion then that 'Islam is neither radicalized nor involved in acts of terrorism' ?

Islam will need to make introspective analysis and eventual reformation. There has to be a doctrinal, liturgical and theological authority wherein all branches of Islam may refer to for guidance.

Nope; not gonna happen.

The lack of an ecclesiastical order is integral to main stream Islam and remains both a blessing and a curse of sorts; a blessing because there is no central authority to tell us what to do and a curse because well there is no central authority to tell us what to do.

Islam expects each Muslim to be his own priest; in the past that didn't create nearly the amount of problems that it has today. Muslim fanaticism was a thing unheard of at nearly the same frequency that it is today. Why ? Islam and Muslims were there; what then changed ?

The way I see it the present predicament is a conflux of 4 events:

(1) the Iranian Revolution of '79 and with it the Ayatollah's exporting their Revolution to every corner of the Muslim world with Shia pockets.

(2) the Arab response to that revolution by them exporting their counter-revolution to everywhere with Sunnis.

(3) the so-called Afghan Jihad where a toxic concoction of Religious Fervor and Firearms was conceived by Pakistan, America and countless many Nations in the East and the West including quite a few Muslim countries, to defeat the Soviet War machine.

(4) the extremist pockets created because of the above 3 proliferating across the Muslim world.

That said; we still mustn't forget that every survey or study I've come across points towards two things:

(i) Muslims overwhelmingly so reject extremism including Gallup surveys that I've seen where Muslims reject it more so than other faiths or belief systems out there.

(ii) Terrorist attacks in Europe and the US carried out by Muslims forms a small fraction of all terrorist attacks carried out therein; so European and American Muslims ought not get the flak for it as if every time a Muslim Fanatic does something they ought to justify away their loyalty to those countries and have to vocally condemn it every single time and still be told that that Moderate Muslims are not condemning it.

 

[Aepsilons]

I see; so the major premise is 'Islam is defined by its followers'

And the minor premise is 'the vast majority of the Muslims are neither radicalized nor involved in acts of terrorism'

Whats the conclusion then that 'Islam is neither radicalized nor involved in acts of terrorism' ?



Nope; not gonna happen.

The lack of an ecclesiastical order is integral to main stream Islam and remains both a blessing and a curse of sorts; a blessing because there is no central authority to tell us what to do and a curse because well there is no central authority to tell us what to do.

Islam expects each Muslim to be his own priest; in the past that didn't create nearly the amount of problems that it has today. Muslim fanaticism was a thing unheard of at nearly the same frequency that it is today. Why ? Islam and Muslims were there; what then changed ?

The way I see it the present predicament is a conflux of 4 events:

(1) the Iranian Revolution of '79 and with it the Ayatollah's exporting their Revolution to every corner of the Muslim world with Shia pockets.

(2) the Arab response to that revolution by them exporting their counter-revolution to everywhere with Sunnis.

(3) the so-called Afghan Jihad where a toxic concoction of Religious Fervor and Firearms was conceived by Pakistan, America and countless many Nations in the East and the West including quite a few Muslim countries, to defeat the Soviet War machine.

(4) the extremist pockets created because of the above 3 proliferating across the Muslim world.

That said; we still mustn't forget that every survey or study I've come across points towards two things:

(i) Muslims overwhelmingly so reject extremism including Gallup surveys that I've seen where Muslims reject it more so than other faiths or belief systems out there.

(ii) Terrorist attacks in Europe and the US carried out by Muslims forms a small fraction of all terrorist attacks carried out therein; so European and American Muslims ought not get the flak for it as if every time a Muslim Fanatic does something they ought to justify away and have to vocally condemn it every single time and still be told that that Moderate Muslims are not condemning it.

Excellent post, @Armstrong .

 

[Armstrong]

Excellent post, @Armstrong .

Now go and make me a sandwich !

With extra pickles !

 

[Aepsilons]

Now go and make me a sandwich !

With extra pickles !

You have very eloquent writing style, @Armstrong . You hide that , I can see !!

 

[Cheetah786]

Islam is only what Muslims actually do. Any religion is what its followers do.

Just because you are born in Muslim house hold,don't mean you are a Muslim. Islam has set clear guidelines. People can choose to follow them or not.

 

[Steve781]

Unfortunately many "moderate" Muslims including some on this site have made excuses for the attackers.
When Charlie Hebdo Denied Freedom of Expresion to its Cartoonist | Page 2

 

[Gunsnroses]

The more i read instances of wanton violence perpetrated by radical Muslims, the more I believe it is important to have greater Spiritual Meditation on the words of the Divine. Young Muslims, more often than others, tend to have to defend their faith , their religion because of the dastardly deeds of fanatical extremists. It is unfair, really. Because not all Muslims adhere to the visions, and interpretations of extremists who advocate for terrorism.

As the Bible says, don't mix the wheat with the weed. It is unfair for us, as a society, to judge the whole lot for the reprobate behavior and actions of a misguided few.

I would say that there needs -- more moderate minded, and intellectually trained Muslim Theologians , who are schooled in real Muslim Seminaries , and not some unknown self-trained Imam who was influenced by some kind of radical, twisted form of Islam. Again, this is the reason why self-interpretation of things is not always a good thing -- there should be guidance from a learned, benevolent Spiritual Teacher (notice i use the word "teacher" instead of "leader").


Yes there are. I am proud to call some of my good friends as brothers. Many of them are Muslims.

Well said. Just to add when the soul is taken away from the body, the leftover is a big meat loaf which becomes gangrenous overtime. This is what we are suffering from today. We are more focused on finding logical reasons which is only one aspect of religion forgetting the dying part called spiritualism, hence we have lost balance.

 

[Aepsilons]

Well said. Just to add when the soul is taken away from the body, the leftover is a big meat loaf which becomes gangrenous overtime. This is what we are suffering from today. We are more focused on finding logical reasons which is only one aspect of religion forgetting the dying part called spiritualism, hence we have lost balance.

Just because you are born in Muslim house hold,don't mean you are a Muslim. Islam has set clear guidelines. People can choose to follow them or not.

The same also applies for Christians. If a Christian says , " I believe in Jesus Christ and he is my Saviour" , but he does not actively live that faith, does not read into the scriptures --- but merely claims to be Christian and hollow of faith-- then that's a dead claim. Christians , Muslims, Jews -- are called not to just verbally express their faith, but to live actively their Faith.

Peace.

For those of us who do believe in Divine Providence, we know we may escape punishment in this -- life -- this valley of tears. But we know -- we cannot escape the Final Judgment -- of Divine Providence.

 

[Gufi]

not to just verbally express their faith, but to live actively their Faith.

i posted this on another thread but it is just as valid here
I wonder why no one brings the human condition into the debate study the human psyche you will find that people deal with offence in different ways.
When someone offends a normal person he might deal with internally but there are a few in a million who if they are hurt in any way end up taking revenge without care for their own life.
You see this in every country. The issue here is someone took offence to something done over religion but the same happens with people who kill their wife or friend over some insult. M not defending just explaining the thought process and differentiating what people ascribe to religious extremism versus how the mind set deals with issues
there are jews who planned to blow up mosques in Jerusalem only to be stopped by Mossad and Christians priests who have killed in the name of religion. The issue is not the religion but the mindset of the few defining the religion. We must understand that rather then the religion it is the person who need mental evaluation. Study what the triggers are and work on removing them. Freedom is lovely but at the same time some freedom can cause us harm.