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Islam and democracy

Excellent question.

Tell me what are the differences between Jizya and Zakah. Only Quran pls. :)

No first tell me how it is unjust, I have been answering all morning, I have exhausted my quota of sensible discussion for today. :laughcry: ha only jking.

But seriously if you want me to go get all verses from the Qur'an about the Zakah etc, I will do that. The discussion has to be two way though, you can't keep asking questions and not answer none of mine.:)

So first you tell me how it is unjust?

Great...:rolleyes:...Another 'Islam is compatible with democracy' defense.

Am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that all those defenders are eminently happy with the forced dominance of Islam and practices as currently seen in the ME.

Not really. I don't believe any country in the world is practising true Islamic governance. None what so ever, and if you read my posts, you would know I explicitly said I take no responsibility for the actions of muslims. All laws can be abused. Doesn't necessarily mean the laws are bad. And what's better than a good ole discussion in the morning eh?:smart:
 
No first tell me how it is unjust, I have been answering all morning, I have exhausted my quota of sensible discussion for today. :laughcry: ha only jking.

But seriously if you want me to go get all verses from the Qur'an about the Zakah etc, I will do that. The discussion has to be two way though, you can't keep asking questions and not answer none of mine.:)

So first you tell me how it is unjust?

There are many points. Let's take one point at a time.

1. Zakah has an upper limit enforced. Jizya does not. Source - Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, quoted in Stillman (1979), pp. 159–160

2. Muslim's net worth of assets must exceed the Nisab (excess money for personal need) to be obliged to give Zakat. Jizya is paid yearly regardless to Nisab ie even if you are very poor.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Source - Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement

al Razi says - "The intention of taking the jizya is not to approve the disbelief of non-Muslims in Islam, but rather to spare their lives and to give them some time; in hope that during it; they might stop to reflect on the virtues of Islam and its compelling arguments, and consequently converting from disbelief to belief. That's why it's important to pay the jizya with humiliation and servility, because naturally, any sensible person can not stand humiliation and servility. So if the disbeliever is given some time watching the pride of Islam and hearing evidences of its authenticity, then apparently this might carry him to convert to Islam, and that's the main rationale behind the enactment of the jizya." al-Razi, Fakhr al-Din (1981). "(9:29)". Tafsir al-Kabir.

"lawful to require twice as much of a Zimmee [dhimmi] as of a Mussulman [Muslim]" - Source - Hedaya, I.4.; see also K.S. Lal, Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India, Delhi, 1999, pp. 139–140 (tax levies on Muslims in Muslim India: 5%, on dhimmis: 10%).
 
Not really. I don't believe any country in the world is practising true Islamic governance.
We are. By that I mean 'the West'.

The tax rules are just mechanisms of state administration and are not needed by any Islam dominated government. Same for military service. Same for many other petty rules. The higher issues are that of freedom of speech, of religion, of association, and basic human rights, of which we have yet to see Muslims practice them at the personal level. If they were, or at least if enough of them were, we would see it manifested at the governmental level.

So please, Muslims, stop trying to defend the 'Islam is compatible with democracy' argument. If enough of you are/were swayed by the rhetoric of a few religious leaders, then by simple association you believe in those ideas and practices that are incompatible with known democratic practices and elevated them to the governmental level.
 
There are many points. Let's take one point at a time.

1. Zakah has an upper limit enforced. Jizya does not. Source - Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, quoted in Stillman (1979), pp. 159–160

2. Muslim's net worth of assets must exceed the Nisab (excess money for personal need) to be obliged to give Zakat. Jizya is paid yearly regardless to Nisab ie even if you are very poor.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Source - Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement

al Razi says - "The intention of taking the jizya is not to approve the disbelief of non-Muslims in Islam, but rather to spare their lives and to give them some time; in hope that during it; they might stop to reflect on the virtues of Islam and its compelling arguments, and consequently converting from disbelief to belief. That's why it's important to pay the jizya with humiliation and servility, because naturally, any sensible person can not stand humiliation and servility. So if the disbeliever is given some time watching the pride of Islam and hearing evidences of its authenticity, then apparently this might carry him to convert to Islam, and that's the main rationale behind the enactment of the jizya." al-Razi, Fakhr al-Din (1981). "(9:29)". Tafsir al-Kabir.

"lawful to require twice as much of a Zimmee [dhimmi] as of a Mussulman [Muslim]" - Source - Hedaya, I.4.; see also K.S. Lal, Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India, Delhi, 1999, pp. 139–140 (tax levies on Muslims in Muslim India: 5%, on dhimmis: 10%).

I will reply to all these in more detail once I have researched this but can I just say that I am not Sunni and most of these references you have given mean nothing to me.

We are. By that I mean 'the West'.

The tax rules are just mechanisms of state administration and are not needed by any Islam dominated government. Same for military service. Same for many other petty rules. The higher issues are that of freedom of speech, of religion, of association, and basic human rights, of which we have yet to see Muslims practice them at the personal level. If they were, or at least if enough of them were, we would see it manifested at the governmental level.

So please, Muslims, stop trying to defend the 'Islam is compatible with democracy' argument. If enough of you are/were swayed by the rhetoric of a few religious leaders, then by simple association you believe in those ideas and practices that are incompatible with known democratic practices and elevated them to the governmental level.

Can people who are not familiar with muslims not generalise please? I bear no responsibility for the actions of the Saudi government, nor the religious of the Iranian regime, or frankly the majority of muslims.. I agree with you about tax mechanisms, that's all I have been saying, Jizya and Zakah are forms of Taxes under an Islamic government, It's just a different form of taxes.
 
I will reply to all these in more detail once I have researched this but can I just say that I am not Sunni and most of these references you have given mean nothing to me.



Can people who are not familiar with muslims not generalise please? I bear no responsibility for the actions of the Saudi government, nor the religious of the Iranian regime, or frankly the majority of muslims.. I agree with you about tax mechanisms, that's all I have been saying, Jizya and Zakah are forms of Taxes under an Islamic government, It's just a different form of taxes.

1. What you have presented is the work of a student of one of the four Imams. It is mostly his opinion. The four Imams have differing interpretations and opinions. But Abu Yusuf is not one of the four recognized Imams, he is merely a student of one of them. So the opinion of one of the Imam's, Imam Sha'fi (rh), is much highly regarded. He has said that the yearly contributions of Jizya is just 1 denar per year. I don't doubt that muslim rulers levied more from the non muslims, I'm only presenting one of the many accepted interpretations on this issue. Because I think what you are forgetting is that Islamic laws are want to interpretation, different people interpret differently.

2. As I have said, the poor are exempted from paying jizya. And might I remind you, it is only to be paid by only the male members of the family. I don't know where you got that poor have to pay.

I respect Imam Al-Razi, but the verse you have presented refers to the situation during the wars with the jewish tribes in Medina. They were constantly rebelling and had broken a treaty with the muslims. They had committed treason by agreeing to help the Meccans after signing a pact with the muslims.

These are just my opinions. As I have said before, interpretations vary from sect to Sect, and even within sects.
 
I will reply to all these in more detail once I have researched this but can I just say that I am not Sunni and most of these references you have given mean nothing to me.



Can people who are not familiar with muslims not generalise please? I bear no responsibility for the actions of the Saudi government, nor the religious of the Iranian regime, or frankly the majority of muslims.. I agree with you about tax mechanisms, that's all I have been saying, Jizya and Zakah are forms of Taxes under an Islamic government, It's just a different form of taxes.
:) No issues mate
 
1. What you have presented is the work of a student of one of the four Imams. It is mostly his opinion. The four Imams have differing interpretations and opinions. But Abu Yusuf is not one of the four recognized Imams, he is merely a student of one of them. So the opinion of one of the Imam's, Imam Sha'fi (rh), is much highly regarded. He has said that the yearly contributions of Jizya is just 1 denar per year. I don't doubt that muslim rulers levied more from the non muslims, I'm only presenting one of the many accepted interpretations on this issue. Because I think what you are forgetting is that Islamic laws are want to interpretation, different people interpret differently.

2. As I have said, the poor are exempted from paying jizya. And might I remind you, it is only to be paid by only the male members of the family. I don't know where you got that poor have to pay.

I respect Imam Al-Razi, but the verse you have presented refers to the situation during the wars with the jewish tribes in Medina. They were constantly rebelling and had broken a treaty with the muslims. They had committed treason by agreeing to help the Meccans after signing a pact with the muslims.

These are just my opinions. As I have said before, interpretations vary from sect to Sect, and even within sects.

"I don't know where you got that poor have to pay." -
"I respect Imam Al-Razi" ---- From here.

"broken a treaty with the muslims" - This is often said. Now comes the question - please post the words of the treaty. Where was it signed? Between whom? On what terms?
 
Can people who are not familiar with muslims not generalise please?
How can we not generalize when we see the same pattern of behaviors, attitudes, and arguments over an over? If you see a Briton and an American, do you not generalize about both without knowing either one? Of course you would and you do. There are several major philosophical commonalities between the two of us and if it comes to religion, that commonality would be 'freedom of religion'. Both of us would abhor forced religious beliefs. In fact, it would be practically impossible for you to find any Westerner who believes in forced religion whereas, despite the vehemence of the many Muslims here, forced religious beliefs are expected among the Muslims, either by legal means or societal pressure.

I bear no responsibility for the actions of the Saudi government, nor the religious of the Iranian regime, or frankly the majority of muslims..
It is easy for you to deny that. You are living in the West, I can safely assume? That makes you a minority. It would be good for you to conform to the dominant social mores. But are you brave enough to retain what you publicly professed to believe if those notions make you a minority among the Muslims who are more vocal about their 'fundamentalism'?
 
1) Democracy promotes free speech, while islam strictly condemns free speech (example - riots that happen when talking drawing muslim prophet)

Ok … Someone abuses to your mother / your sister / your father … Then what will you do….?? Would you say to this freedom of speech…???? I think ‘NO’ because this is not a freedom of speech … Everyone is free to express his opinion … But without hurting someone’s sentiments & without abusing to religious personalities … 1) Picture is haram in Islam … So Muslims don’t want to bring to our Prophet (S.A.W.W) in imagination … 2) That drawing was disgracing to our Prophet (S.A.W.W) … If you believe that Islam is a terrorist religion then I must say that you are biggest ignorant & bigot … And that drawing shows the same that bigot mentality was working behind this ……..

1) The holocaust argument has been destroyed many times over in the internet. Holocaust is a historical fact, while prophet of islam is fictitious/religion. while muslims might respect/believe in their prohpet, non-,muslims dont. Why should non-muslims not have the right to say that/express that? Why do non-muslims (like me) have to be forced to respect/believe a figure they dont believe even exists (as far as their religious/personal concerns go)? We (non-muslims) dont believe in the quran, so why are we being forced to follow orders given in the quran regarding the prophet of islam?

What do you mean by bold part…?? Kindly elaborate ……..

Hindus are intolerant in their religion & have roits in retaliation:

PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF THAT CHRISTIANS ABUSE HINDU GODS AND GODESSES AND WANT TO KEEP QUIET AGAINST THEIR AGGRESSION ... TIME TO RETALIATE IN GOOD MEASURE

Some examples of inter-faith violence by Hindus:
• 1999: Graham Staines, an Australian Christian missionary had worked for 30 years with leprosy patients in Orissa state for three decades. In 1999, he and his two young sons -- Philip, 10, and Timothy, 6, were trapped inside a car by Hindu fundamentalist militants who set fire to his vehicle. All three were burned to death. In 2003, 13 men were convicted of mass murder. Dara Singh was sentenced to hang; his 12 accomplices, were sentenced to life in prison. 1
• 2000: During the first half of the year, there were 35 violent incidents in which Christians were victimized. These include bombings, church arson, beating deaths, and assaults. Roman Catholic Archbishop de Lastic stated: "There is a definite strategy and plan at the national level -- these forces at work want to intimidate Christians."
Hindu-Christian Religious intolerance in India

2) Democracy promotes freedom of religion, while islam strictly bans other religions from practicing (example - most muslim countries have converted non-muslims forcefull or unforcefully, you cannot convert out of islam if you are no longer a believer)

Freedom of Religion in India

1) Petition for religious freedom in India | Christian News on Christian Today
2) Religious freedom increasingly under threat in India - Vatican Insider

3) Religious Freedom in India

2) How convenient, why not? And the funny thing that arises in this situation is, if a man/woman no longer believes in islam, and says this out loud, he/she will be charged and framed in the point #1 in the law of speaking against islam. Also:

"Islam believes in freedom of religion, yes the only restriction is that after embracing Islam, there is no reversion.".... LOL how hilarious, that is one of the most fundamental freedoms, forcing someone to follow a religion when he/she no longer believes so? you might as well have rephrased it to "Islam does not believe in freedom of religion"...

We don’t hide to ourselves behing secularism … Yes Islam gives equal opportunities to non-Muslims but one can’t be allowed to become murtid … Nobody want to leave Islam once he embrace except those who are offered for some privileges by non-Muslims ……..

3) Democracy promotes equality of all humans, while islam strictly only promotes equality of muslims, while treating non-muslims as inferior (pick up the case of any non-muslims in muslim countries)

Because of this fundamental difference, all muslim countries including Pakistan (to the arab spring) have been struggling with the rather simple subject of democracy since time immemorial. The only time true democracy can come to these countries is when they let go of islam, which will be never...

I mentioned above so called equality & freedom of religion in your so-called pathetic democrazy … Islam is the only religion which promotes equality to whole humanity … It’s laws are not man-made like your democrazy … See the biography of Holy Prophet & governance method of his companions ……….
 
You are just trolling. Two wrongs don't make a right. Never mind.
Ok … Someone abuses to your mother / your sister / your father … Then what will you do….?? Would you say to this freedom of speech…???? I think ‘NO’ because this is not a freedom of speech … Everyone is free to express his opinion … But without hurting someone’s sentiments & without abusing to religious personalities … 1) Picture is haram in Islam … So Muslims don’t want to bring to our Prophet (S.A.W.W) in imagination … 2) That drawing was disgracing to our Prophet (S.A.W.W) … If you believe that Islam is a terrorist religion then I must say that you are biggest ignorant & bigot … And that drawing shows the same that bigot mentality was working behind this ……..



What do you mean by bold part…?? Kindly elaborate ……..

Hindus are intolerant in their religion & have roits in retaliation:

PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF THAT CHRISTIANS ABUSE HINDU GODS AND GODESSES AND WANT TO KEEP QUIET AGAINST THEIR AGGRESSION ... TIME TO RETALIATE IN GOOD MEASURE

Some examples of inter-faith violence by Hindus:
Hindu-Christian Religious intolerance in India



Freedom of Religion in India

1) Petition for religious freedom in India | Christian News on Christian Today
2) Religious freedom increasingly under threat in India - Vatican Insider

3) Religious Freedom in India



We don’t hide to ourselves behing secularism … Yes Islam gives equal opportunities to non-Muslims but one can’t be allowed to become murtid … Nobody want to leave Islam once he embrace except those who are offered for some privileges by non-Muslims ……..



I mentioned above so called equality & freedom of religion in your so-called pathetic democrazy … Islam is the only religion which promotes equality to whole humanity … It’s laws are not man-made like your democrazy … See the biography of Holy Prophet & governance method of his companions ……….
 
Let's ask you on a personal basis. :azn: I can't represent all Hindus, you can't represent all Muslims.

1. Freedom of speech - Say you draw a Hindu God and make a cartoon in a very demeaning manner. I will be offended. I will be pissed off but that will be all. But if I draw a very respectful drawing depicting (you know who) him, what will be your reaction?

2. Freedom of religion - Say Tom has been forced by (Say) Mahmud to convert by force - gun to head and all :D) Now after Mahmud dies due to an accident, Tom reverts back to (say) Buddhism, he becomes an apostate - does he not?. Besides as a non Muslim he can't practice his faith openly in any Islamic land...but let's not go into that(The Pact).

3. Equality - In the Holy Quran there are some strict divisions of humankind - namely Momeen, Mushkrikeen, Munafiq etc. For example, a Muslim can't marry a non Muslim and can't have a legitimate (sexual) relationship with him/her(except if the woman is a slave captured as War booty. There is Dhimmi, there is Jizya - and all this is well scripted. There are rules of conduct between believers and un-believers(for example At-Taubah). Then there are even differences among the unbelievers - like the people of the Book, and the pagans. I am leaving the 'swine ' and other dirty references out of the discussion as I have only read the Quran and not the Hadiths.

:angel:

First of all, sir, it is paramount on any discussions on any faith whether it be ones own or another's to be done so with a respectful tone and understanding. Religions did not emerge out of the blue there were considerable social and cultural factors in which all great faiths emerge/reveal themselves. To understand them it is paramount to understand those conditions as well because reading these time bound texts without context is a fatal error. This attention to cultural and historicisity is not a point that narratology makes. Narratology is basically the philosophical grounding that states that humans innately create a storied world and epistemologically (knowledge) humans learn through stories rather than logic and there is considerable support to narratology from media, developmental, neurological and clinical studies.

Building upon that point I would like to point out that faith bound texts are an amalgamation of metaphorical stories also called myths though it the word is used differently here and instructions. The Quran, Geeta, Bible follow this pattern. What is the function of metaphorical stories such as we see in the Quran and Bible of the Prophets (pbut)? The story of Ram-Seeta for that matter or the moral dileema that Krishan faces? Modernist tradition has seen these as myths great stories created by some wise man to make people become moral; however, that is not the case: critical studies and studies of old cultures and urban cultures show that stories do not just emerge they are actively created by everyone involved. In terms of religions this play has a point: see religion is revealed but it is studied by the people living in a certain society at a certain time subjected to certain forces. Therefore, to understand the text itself one must understand those times these two are intervowen. It is just as studying space requires studying time because as we orginally thought that these two are separate has been completely disproven: they are a continuum.

Therefore; I would like to point out certain things. Firstly, as I have repeatedly said, the Quran actually makes humanity brethren as it addresses them as Children of Adam secondly, the story of human diversity as read in the story of the tower of Babel recounted differently in the Quran and the Bible states that God created humans in divisions so that they may recognnise one another whereas the Bible recounts it as working counterproductively: humans start fighting one another. Thus, yes, there are different divisions in the text but that changes from context to context. For example, when the Quran deals with murder (which is also recounted from the story of Abel and Cain btw, though not directly named) it states that murder of one innocent is murder of all of humanity, not Muslims. There are similar instances where the Quran, like other books, such as the Geeta, Mahbarat, Old Testament, deals with intense philosophical dilemmas such as evil, fate, faith, end, action, being and so on it addresses things in terms of abstract forms where the divisions arbitrary human world are discounted though it is up to the reader to note where exactly these divisions come. This problem has existed in the classical treastise of metaphysical inquisition and makes it easy to misunderstand.

Thirdly, sir, historically, the Jewish people have found Muslim empires more welcoming than Christian empires. It is hard to believe if we look at it now, isn't it? Why would Muslims be good to Jews? Though it has been the case, the Ottoman, Berber, Abbasiads were all much welcoming to Jewish populations than Christians and as recent as 1945 we have seen what Chrisitian misinterpretation has wrought on to the Jews. My point: separate the text from history and politics. Today, the Muslim world is the most politically volatile world. It is unjustified to paste the current scenario on the Quran. For example, in terms of freedom of speech, the Prophet (pbuh) openly entertained religious debates and questions in the Masjid of Medina these were not always friendly as Jews, Christians, Pagans would come to the man who claimed to be a Prophet. Secondly, the Islamic society allowed a woman to criticise the great Khalifs Umer, Usman, and even Hazrat Ali on their political dealings. How was it possible if not that there existed a freedom of speech. The flourishment of the era commonly known as the Middle Ages where philosophy survived because of scholars who were Muslims is testament to the fact that there is no necessity of Islamic rule stumping freedom of speech or thought. YEs, in todays time it is so but it is more because of the political and social structures of most muslim societies rather than Islam.

Finally, sir, there are certain laws that are made in order to ensure respect and peace amongst various socities and such laws exist in India in fact. Religious persecution is punishable by law, so is discrimination. It is the reason why India was the first country to ban Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses because it was offensive to her Muslim population. Similarly, laws that contain the clause of maintaining sanctity of deep socially held meaning are encouraged and required. Thus, if there are laws that state that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) should not be drawn or depicted in any media because it is offensive to the Muslims of the world and we respect their faith would be such an amazing expression of solidarity to 1.3 billion brethren of humanity, wouldn't it? Similarly, I would love to see laws that would maintain respect for the Hindu faith (especially in Pakistan) and other faiths. What is wrong with that?

I absolutely disagree that such clauses are against the freedom of expression. If one has to criticize it can be done with respect, there is no condition of becoming disrespectful to anyone, the intellectual debates should be separated from emotional cues. I hope my posts on PDF have shown that to people.

Religions are an intimate and deep expression and we must leave our political and ideological positions to at least read and understand them if we read them with a premature assumption then naturally we will be reinforcing our baises.
 
First of all, sir, it is paramount on any discussions on any faith whether it be ones own or another's to be done so with a respectful tone and understanding. Religions did not emerge out of the blue there were considerable social and cultural factors in which all great faiths emerge/reveal themselves. To understand them it is paramount to understand those conditions as well because reading these time bound texts without context is a fatal error. This attention to cultural and historicisity is not a point that narratology makes. Narratology is basically the philosophical grounding that states that humans innately create a storied world and epistemologically (knowledge) humans learn through stories rather than logic and there is considerable support to narratology from media, developmental, neurological and clinical studies.

Building upon that point I would like to point out that faith bound texts are an amalgamation of metaphorical stories also called myths though it the word is used differently here and instructions. The Quran, Geeta, Bible follow this pattern. What is the function of metaphorical stories such as we see in the Quran and Bible of the Prophets (pbut)? The story of Ram-Seeta for that matter or the moral dileema that Krishan faces? Modernist tradition has seen these as myths great stories created by some wise man to make people become moral; however, that is not the case: critical studies and studies of old cultures and urban cultures show that stories do not just emerge they are actively created by everyone involved. In terms of religions this play has a point: see religion is revealed but it is studied by the people living in a certain society at a certain time subjected to certain forces. Therefore, to understand the text itself one must understand those times these two are intervowen. It is just as studying space requires studying time because as we orginally thought that these two are separate has been completely disproven: they are a continuum.

Therefore; I would like to point out certain things. Firstly, as I have repeatedly said, the Quran actually makes humanity brethren as it addresses them as Children of Adam secondly, the story of human diversity as read in the story of the tower of Babel recounted differently in the Quran and the Bible states that God created humans in divisions so that they may recognnise one another whereas the Bible recounts it as working counterproductively: humans start fighting one another. Thus, yes, there are different divisions in the text but that changes from context to context. For example, when the Quran deals with murder (which is also recounted from the story of Abel and Cain btw, though not directly named) it states that murder of one innocent is murder of all of humanity, not Muslims. There are similar instances where the Quran, like other books, such as the Geeta, Mahbarat, Old Testament, deals with intense philosophical dilemmas such as evil, fate, faith, end, action, being and so on it addresses things in terms of abstract forms where the divisions arbitrary human world are discounted though it is up to the reader to note where exactly these divisions come. This problem has existed in the classical treastise of metaphysical inquisition and makes it easy to misunderstand.

Thirdly, sir, historically, the Jewish people have found Muslim empires more welcoming than Christian empires. It is hard to believe if we look at it now, isn't it? Why would Muslims be good to Jews? Though it has been the case, the Ottoman, Berber, Abbasiads were all much welcoming to Jewish populations than Christians and as recent as 1945 we have seen what Chrisitian misinterpretation has wrought on to the Jews. My point: separate the text from history and politics. Today, the Muslim world is the most politically volatile world. It is unjustified to paste the current scenario on the Quran. For example, in terms of freedom of speech, the Prophet (pbuh) openly entertained religious debates and questions in the Masjid of Medina these were not always friendly as Jews, Christians, Pagans would come to the man who claimed to be a Prophet. Secondly, the Islamic society allowed a woman to criticise the great Khalifs Umer, Usman, and even Hazrat Ali on their political dealings. How was it possible if not that there existed a freedom of speech. The flourishment of the era commonly known as the Middle Ages where philosophy survived because of scholars who were Muslims is testament to the fact that there is no necessity of Islamic rule stumping freedom of speech or thought. YEs, in todays time it is so but it is more because of the political and social structures of most muslim societies rather than Islam.

Finally, sir, there are certain laws that are made in order to ensure respect and peace amongst various socities and such laws exist in India in fact. Religious persecution is punishable by law, so is discrimination. It is the reason why India was the first country to ban Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses because it was offensive to her Muslim population. Similarly, laws that contain the clause of maintaining sanctity of deep socially held meaning are encouraged and required. Thus, if there are laws that state that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) should not be drawn or depicted in any media because it is offensive to the Muslims of the world and we respect their faith would be such an amazing expression of solidarity to 1.3 billion brethren of humanity, wouldn't it? Similarly, I would love to see laws that would maintain respect for the Hindu faith (especially in Pakistan) and other faiths. What is wrong with that?

I absolutely disagree that such clauses are against the freedom of expression. If one has to criticize it can be done with respect, there is no condition of becoming disrespectful to anyone, the intellectual debates should be separated from emotional cues. I hope my posts on PDF have shown that to people.

Religions are an intimate and deep expression and we must leave our political and ideological positions to at least read and understand them if we read them with a premature assumption then naturally we will be reinforcing our baises.

Your point is noble. But I (like I said personally) will disagree as far as books and scriptures are concerned. IMO faith is stronger than books. If you believe in something truly, no matter what a devil does, your faith will be strong. I (personally) will tolerate to a large extent even those who abuse me and my faith openly. But yes, that's just me. :)

What is more important is humanity. It need not matter which faith you belong to if you respect the other. For example even if you are a Hindutvadi and still donate blood to a bleeding Muslim, you will still save a life. :) If this world were full of people like you debates on religion would have been heated - true. But not a drop of blood would have been shed. Peace to you :)
 
Your point is noble. But I (like I said personally) will disagree as far as books and scriptures are concerned. IMO faith is stronger than books. If you believe in something truly, no matter what a devil does, your faith will be strong. I (personally) will tolerate to a large extent even those who abuse me and my faith openly. But yes, that's just me. :)

What is more important is humanity. It need not matter which faith you belong to if you respect the other. For example even if you are a Hindutvadi and still donate blood to a bleeding Muslim, you will still save a life. :) If this world were full of people like you debates on religion would have been heated - true. But not a drop of blood would have been shed. Peace to you :)

I agree, sir, all faiths put humanity at the paramount. In my opinion a deeper understanding of each other's faiths is necessary for human social progress as faith can be a good thing for the betterment of humanity.
 

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