Islam and democracy

[SarthakGanguly]

To decide what is right and what is wrong a gift has been given by God, which is Justice (Adl). It is due to this reason Islam does not support concept of clergy as a profession and each individual is required to do his own research. Anything contradictory to the basic teachings of Islam should better be avoided. When in doubt adopt safer course, which lies in the name of Islam (Peace)

You give substantial importance on 'interpretation'. That's fair enough.
But one request - "When in doubt adopt safer course, which lies in the name of Islam" - Please don't proselytize. Om Shanti <--nothing religious about it.

 

[Panther 57]

I disagree with all your points:

1) The holocaust argument has been destroyed many times over in the internet. Holocaust is a historical fact, while prophet of islam is fictitious/religion. while muslims might respect/believe in their prohpet, non-,muslims dont. Why should non-muslims not have the right to say that/express that? Why do non-muslims (like me) have to be forced to respect/believe a figure they dont believe even exists (as far as their religious/personal concerns go)? We (non-muslims) dont believe in the quran, so why are we being forced to follow orders given in the quran regarding the prophet of islam?

2) How convenient, why not? And the funny thing that arises in this situation is, if a man/woman no longer believes in islam, and says this out loud, he/she will be charged and framed in the point #1 in the law of speaking against islam. Also:

"Islam believes in freedom of religion, yes the only restriction is that after embracing Islam, there is no reversion.".... LOL how hilarious, that is one of the most fundamental freedoms, forcing someone to follow a religion when he/she no longer believes so? you might as well have rephrased it to "Islam does not believe in freedom of religion"...

3) I really dont care about Islam/Quran, to me (a non-muslim) those are concepts that are false/do not exist. Your islam/quran could be the most wonderful and egalitarian religion in the world, with even gay rights to make sure the homosexuals dont get left out. What matter and affects me is the actions, rather than the thoughts/ideas, and the actions of muslims are appaling. I am sure Hitler might say in his defence that his thoughts/ideas were revolutionary, but at the end of the day he is only going to be judged for his actions

1) The holocaust argument has been destroyed many times over in the internet. Holocaust is a historical fact, while prophet of islam is fictitious/religion. while muslims might respect/believe in their prohpet, non-,muslims dont. Why should non-muslims not have the right to say that/express that? Why do non-muslims (like me) have to be forced to respect/believe a figure they dont believe even exists (as far as their religious/personal concerns go)? We (non-muslims) dont believe in the quran, so why are we being forced to follow orders given in the quran regarding the prophet of islam?

You have all the right to disagree, but I would re-emphasize the need to respect other religions and being an outsider in the religion commenting on it being fact of fiction. If I start commenting on Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, jewism etc; it will be highly inappropriate because I am not part of it and by my comments I will trespass the limits of my freedom by injuring someone else religious and sentimental feeling. If I consider any religion to be fake I have all the right to keep my thoughts to myself rather then pushing my ideas on others.
No one is forcing any non-muslim to follow Quran. Only thing which is expected out of a non muslim is to respect it. Likewise, respect the religious personalities. It in no way means that you have follow them as Muslims do. A very small example is that you would expect one of your neighbours to respect your parents because of their age.

2) How convenient, why not? And the funny thing that arises in this situation is, if a man/woman no longer believes in islam, and says this out loud, he/she will be charged and framed in the point #1 in the law of speaking against islam. Also:

"Islam believes in freedom of religion, yes the only restriction is that after embracing Islam, there is no reversion.".... LOL how hilarious, that is one of the most fundamental freedoms, forcing someone to follow a religion when he/she no longer believes so? you might as well have rephrased it to "Islam does not believe in freedom of religion"...

There is nothing hilarious. An Indian takes nationality of another country has to surrender his Indian nationality and becomes an NRI. He can revert back to Indian Nationality, however, if he decides to take up another nationality again then there is no reversion. This is a rule set by government of India; no other country should have any objection to it. So why is it hilarious for you if a rule has been set by a religion. Would it be alright if someone calls burning of corpses as hilarious. No, that is a rule set by a particular religion and they practice. Period, no other religion has right to object.
And by the way conversion to Islam is voluntary so there is no forcing. But when you enter a religion you have to abide by the bye-laws.


3

) I really dont care about Islam/Quran, to me (a non-muslim) those are concepts that are false/do not exist. Your islam/quran could be the most wonderful and egalitarian religion in the world, with even gay rights to make sure the homosexuals dont get left out. What matter and affects me is the actions, rather than the thoughts/ideas, and the actions of muslims are appaling. I am sure Hitler might say in his defence that his thoughts/ideas were revolutionary, but at the end of the day he is only going to be judged for his actions

I do not understand what you want to convey here?

 

[Pakistani E]

Don't you just hate it when people talk about something they have no idea about, Considering jizya, the poor do not have to pay it, neither do women, children or priests or religious establishments(of non-muslims) also in an Islami state, non muslims are exempt from military service.

And lets have a look at how much Jizya have to be paid, Imam Sha'fi (rh) has said that the contribution is 1 denar every year, most jurists agree with Imam Sha'fi (rh) on this issue. This is a minor contribution if you look how much zakah muslims have to pay.

And lets not forget that, that this is basically a tax system that pays for all the utilities that state HAS to provide.

Compare this to zakah, which every muslim has to pay regardless of social condition or gender. Muslim also have to take the responsibility of defending the state, including bearing the costs of any military expenditure.

 

[Spring Onion]

"Hinduism is far grater fiction to us with animals being gods" - I don't mind.
"You can revert we have no issue with that but after reverting you can NOT claim anything Islamic. Simple rule." - Chalo I thank God. At least you don't support stoning apostates.
"Hinduism and every religion hence the reality is that everyone considers own faith as superior and better" - Nope. If you are following a Dharmic faith - you not allowed to think yourself or your faith to be superior to others.

:

If that had been the case then we might NOT had seen cast system in India.

You are even looking down upon your own followers within dharmic faith as inferiors.

 

[livingdead]

Don't you just hate it when people talk about something they have no idea about, Considering jizya, the poor do not have to pay it, neither do women, children or priests or religious establishments(of non-muslims) also in an Islami state, non muslims are exempt from military service.

And lets have a look at how much Jizya have to be paid, Imam Sha'fi (rh) has said that the contribution is 1 denar every year, most jurists agree with Imam Sha'fi (rh) on this issue. This is a minor contribution if you look how much zakah muslims have to pay.

And lets not forget that, that this is basically a tax system that pays for all the utilities that state HAS to provide.

Compare this to zakah, which every muslim has to pay regardless of social condition or gender. Muslim also have to take the responsibility of defending the state, including bearing the costs of any military expenditure.

jizya is over and above the tax that you owe to the govt... thats how it was practiced ..right?
and zakah... you dont pay to govt, you pay to another guy... most of the time fellow muslim.. or an islamic institution... same way hindu donates money to whoever he wants.. sometimes to temple...

 

[Pakistani E]

You have all the right to disagree, but I would re-emphasize the need to respect other religions and being an outsider in the religion commenting on it being fact of fiction. If I start commenting on Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, jewism etc; it will be highly inappropriate because I am not part of it and by my comments I will trespass the limits of my freedom by injuring someone else religious and sentimental feeling. If I consider any religion to be fake I have all the right to keep my thoughts to myself rather then pushing my ideas on others.
No one is forcing any non-muslim to follow Quran. Only thing which is expected out of a non muslim is to respect it. Likewise, respect the religious personalities. It in no way means that you have follow them as Muslims do. A very small example is that you would expect one of your neighbours to respect your parents because of their age.



There is nothing hilarious. An Indian takes nationality of another country has to surrender his Indian nationality and becomes an NRI. He can revert back to Indian Nationality, however, if he decides to take up another nationality again then there is no reversion. This is a rule set by government of India; no other country should have any objection to it. So why is it hilarious for you if a rule has been set by a religion. Would it be alright if someone calls burning of corpses as hilarious. No, that is a rule set by a particular religion and they practice. Period, no other religion has right to object.
And by the way conversion to Islam is voluntary so there is no forcing. But when you enter a religion you have to abide by the bye-laws.


3

I do not understand what you want to convey here?

Bro, this raj guy was proposing the genocide of Bengali muslims in another thread. I think he's just a troll who hates everything muslim/islam.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

If that had been the case then we might NOT had seen cast system in India.

You are even looking down upon your own followers within dharmic faith as inferiors.

Lets not pretend there are no differences between Shia, Sunni, Ahmedis etc here.
Differences may exist. One person is inherently different from another. But discrimination is not justified on that basis. The caste system has no right to exist. There are several organizations that donot recognize Caste. For example - RSS. Caste system should be banned and put into the pages of history books alone. Once a powerful nationalist power comes to our Govt, hopefully all these votebank politicians will go away. Then these reforms can be safely and legally undertaken. Otherwise social change is going to take a lot of time.

Bro, this raj guy was proposing the genocide of Bengali muslims in another thread. I think he's just a troll who hates everything muslim/islam.

No. He is just a troll.

 

[Pakistani E]

jizya is over and above the tax that you owe to the govt... thats how it was practiced ..right?
and zakah... you dont pay to govt, you pay to another guy... most of the time fellow muslim.. or an islamic institution... same way hindu donates money to whoever he wants.. sometimes to temple...

no you're confusing with sadakah. Zakah pays for welfare of the whole society, it has to be collected by the state.
Jizya is not over and above tax, it is the only tax to be paid by non muslims. And I have listed the exemptions together with how much was to be paid.

I am not responsible for the actions of muslims today. I am only presenting the conditions of Jizya etc. I won't be surprise if even lots of muslims don't even know what I'm talking about.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

True. But Jizya cannot be justified in any civilized world today that recognizes equality of all human beings.

no you're confusing with sadakah. Zakah pays for welfare of the whole society, it has to be collected by the state.
Jizya is not over and above tax, it is the only tax to be paid by non muslims. And I have listed the exemptions together with how much was to be paid.

I am not responsible for the actions of muslims today. I am only presenting the conditions of Jizya etc. I won't be surprise if even lots of muslims don't even know what I'm talking about.

 

[Panther 57]

jizya is over and above the tax that you owe to the govt... thats how it was practiced ..right?
and zakah... you dont pay to govt, you pay to another guy... most of the time fellow muslim.. or an islamic institution... same way hindu donates money to whoever he wants.. sometimes to temple...

Wrong!
Jazia was a contractual tax between an Islamic government and its non muslim citizen for providing them protection. It was a tax for exemption of male members of non-muslim families from wars. There was no other tax beyond that.

 

[Pakistani E]

True. But Jizya cannot be justified in any civilized world today that recognizes equality of all human beings.

Erm, how? Under the Jizya system, non muslims are paying far less than the Zakah that has to be paid. In return they are getting all the services of the state including exemptions of military service. How is that unjust? Actually it's biased towards non muslims if you ask my personal opinion.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Excellent question.

Tell me what are the differences between Jizya and Zakah. Only Quran pls.

Erm, how? Under the Jizya system, non muslims are paying far less than the Zakah that has to be paid. In return they are getting all the services of the state including exemptions of military service. How is that unjust? Actually it's biased towards non muslims if you ask my personal opinion.

 

[Panther 57]

True. But Jizya cannot be justified in any civilized world today that recognizes equality of all human beings.

And none of the islamic countries are charging it. There exists income tax and sales tax and value added tax etc etc etc. And most of it does not go into public interest projects :LOL

 

[SarthakGanguly]

And none of the islamic countries are charging it. There exists income tax and sales tax and value added tax etc etc etc. And most of it does not go into public interest projects :LOL

Correct. The reason is that it is unacceptable.

 

[gambit]

Great......Another 'Islam is compatible with democracy' defense.

Am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that all those defenders are eminently happy with the forced dominance of Islam and practices as currently seen in the ME.