Islam and Democracy in Indonesia : Tolerance without Liberalism

[Su-35SM3 Flanker-N]

Communism finished by capitalism , now clash between islam vs capitalism is going on. Two ideology can't exit together.

Muslims are encouraged to be rich, Abdurrahman bin Auf, Utsman bin `Affan, Thalhah bin Ubaydillah and others are known for their wealth through trading. Islam allows private owners to dominate the market and this is the core of capitalism.

I don't mind with global khilafah, as long as it's a true khilafah, where pure and honorable values of sharia are implemented to allow a just and prosperous community. In fact, in a true khilafah, hudud is minor issue; because justice and order are upheld. Crime is suppressed and trade is highly encouraged to promote overall wealth.

It's where even non-muslims are protected and can live comfortably. Muslims pay their zakat and non-muslims pay their jizya to contribute to the whole society. But now, I'm an Indonesian and I'm proud of being an Indonesian. Many sharia concepts are already implemented for muslims, such as for marriage, inheritance, various interest-less financial solutions, limitation of alcohol, strict halal standards and others.

 

[Major d1]

Muslims are encouraged to be rich, Abdurrahman bin Auf, Utsman bin `Affan, Thalhah bin Ubaydillah and others are known for their wealth through trading. Islam allows private owners to dominate the market and this is the core of capitalism.

I don't mind with global khilafah, as long as it's a true khilafah, where pure and honorable values of sharia are implemented to allow a just and prosperous community. In fact, in a true khilafah, hudud is minor issue; because justice and order are upheld. Crime is suppressed and trade is highly encouraged to promote overall wealth.

It's where even non-muslims are protected and can live comfortably. Muslims pay their zakat and non-muslims pay their jizya to contribute to the whole society. But now, I'm an Indonesian and I'm proud of being an Indonesian. Many sharia concepts are already implemented for muslims, such as for marriage, inheritance, various interest-less financial solutions, limitation of alcohol, strict halal standards and others.

Many sahabas were rich and trade with many people even with- non muslims. Personal wealth is not prohibited in islam but the question is capitalism is made by whom. This is western method. Ownership. as much wealth as much u can keep, that is not permitted in islam. The core of capitalism is rich become richer and poor become poorer. That is why now we have 1st, 2nd, 3rd world types of country. All money goes to world bank , whatever that is personal or commercial. It is interest basis banking property system. Where interest is totally haram in islam. In capitalism ur keeping ur money in bank., bank is giving u interest and in islamic system u have zakat system and bay tul mal system.

Global khilafah just a matter of time now. Bcz now it is on the way insha"Allah . In this case i agree with you Hudud and saria law muut have to implanted in that khilafah.

If u feel or accept ur Indonesian that is nationalistic concept. What is totally haram in islam. U r Indonesian , i am by born Bangladeshi, he is Sudan. etce. This is not well enough. 1.8 billion muslim is one body . yes we can say , we live in xxxxx area. Or Rasul (SAW) was Arabian. He (SAW) can't he prophet for u or nor for mine. This border is made by British for dividing us.

Muslims need to believe one ummah, one land, one flag, one constitution under one caliph. As you said global true khilafah.

 

[nang2]

The core of capitalism is rich become richer and poor become poorer.

Typical fallacy.

 

[Major d1]

Typical fallacy.

Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its result is the free-market. An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are "controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."


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[nang2]

Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its result is the free-market. An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are "controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."


.

I know that. What's your point?

 

[mejikuhibiu]

At least they have the word "Republic" in Socialist Republic of Vietnam....right? :p



Really....I'm only starting with democracy 101...already too difficult for him?

agree its hard to tell some one if they dont even taste what is democracy like... like malay proverb "Bodoh Lepas Pintar Tak Sampai"

 

[Indos]

Good read for new PDF members

 

[EternalMortal]

@Indos

The 1st question that must be asked is if democracy is even a good system? What are the base assumptions behind it & do they actually pass the test? Can we come up with a better system? And are we talking about western top-down democracy or the Chinese bottom-up style?

2nd question is how to define "democracy"? Is it simply elections? Is it rule by the people (& their whims, desires & current morality) through representatives? Is it rule of law & justice?

3rd question is if it's compatible w/ Islam. The answer to the 2nd question is key to determining this.

The goal should not be to make Islam compatible with democracy. Democracy should be modified (if needed) to become compatible with islam. If that is not possible then throw away this system.

 

[Indos]

Many sahabas were rich and trade with many people even with- non muslims. Personal wealth is not prohibited in islam but the question is capitalism is made by whom. This is western method. Ownership. as much wealth as much u can keep, that is not permitted in islam. The core of capitalism is rich become richer and poor become poorer. That is why now we have 1st, 2nd, 3rd world types of country. All money goes to world bank , whatever that is personal or commercial. It is interest basis banking property system. Where interest is totally haram in islam. In capitalism ur keeping ur money in bank., bank is giving u interest and in islamic system u have zakat system and bay tul mal system.

Global khilafah just a matter of time now. Bcz now it is on the way insha"Allah . In this case i agree with you Hudud and saria law muut have to implanted in that khilafah.

If u feel or accept ur Indonesian that is nationalistic concept. What is totally haram in islam. U r Indonesian , i am by born Bangladeshi, he is Sudan. etce. This is not well enough. 1.8 billion muslim is one body . yes we can say , we live in xxxxx area. Or Rasul (SAW) was Arabian. He (SAW) can't he prophet for u or nor for mine. This border is made by British for dividing us.

Muslims need to believe one ummah, one land, one flag, one constitution under one caliph. As you said global true khilafah.

Sorry to say, but you have very black and white thinking. You cannot see the essence of the issue, same here like Al Qaeda, ISIS, and other pro Khilafah movement.

Khilafah is just a definition right ? If any system can have similar function but using other name and system it should be seen as Khilafat as well. OIC can be Khilafah if the decision making process can be quite effective.

Even if there is Khilafah like in the past, there will always be Provinces that will be ruled using decentralization system. Like in the past, when Muawiyah who is Syrian Governor rebels from Ali Bin Abi Thalib leadership. Muawiyah has his own troops, so what is different with Muslim world Today with so many nations ? If they can be united in common ground like in Palestinian issues, Rohingya issues, and others so they have already acted like Khilafat.

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Saying Nationalism is Haram is wrong. We take care our own problem right ? Each Muslim nation focus on their own problem and try to grow and if we we see Palestinian has problem, we do help and support them as much as we can.

What we get here with so many Muslim nations which are independent, we have to be already grateful.

Here Quran talks about Nation

 

[Indos]

@Indos

The 1st question that must be asked is if democracy is even a good system? What are the base assumptions behind it & do they actually pass the test? Can we come up with a better system? And are we talking about western top-down democracy or the Chinese bottom-up style?

2nd question is how to define "democracy"? Is it simply elections? Is it rule by the people (& their whims, desires & current morality) through representatives? Is it rule of law & justice?

3rd question is if it's compatible w/ Islam. The answer to the 2nd question is key to determining this.

The goal should not be to make Islam compatible with democracy. Democracy should be modified (if needed) to become compatible with islam. If that is not possible then throw away this system.

I will try to make a comprehensive reply once I have time to do it inshaAllah.