ISI Clearance Mandatory For Visit To Pakistan

[deckingraj]

they will do their best to protect Pak Assest only they are suppose to guard

Well as far as i understand ISI is an intelligence agency and its job is to gather intelligence and let the govt. know about the perceived threats...They are not there on roads to protect the assets..or are they??? Security is more of state as well center job...

Let me ask what would be your reaction if ISI says that from now onwards all the police recruitments will be done by ISI?? Don't it sound absurd?? it is like saying there is no agency other than ISI who thinks about Pakistan....Similarly as an outsider it sound absurd to me that an Intelligence agency will decide who will come in Pakistan and who will not...I can understand if they want to scan all Visa's(which to me is not pratical and you will always do a sampling in case you don't have actionable intelligence) but having a say in everything(where they have no jurisdiction) will surely hurt PR and strengthen the usual remarks i.e. Power lies with ISI and Army...

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Well as far as i understand ISI is an intelligence agency and its job is to gather intelligence and let the govt. know about the perceived threats...They are not there on roads to protect the assets..or are they??? Security is more of state as well center job...

Let me ask what would be your reaction if ISI says that from now onwards all the police recruitments will be done by ISI?? Don't it sound absurd?? it is like saying there is no agency other than ISI who thinks about Pakistan....Similarly as an outsider it sound absurd to me that an Intelligence agency will decide who will come in Pakistan and who will not...I can understand if they want to scan all Visa's(which to me is not pratical and you will always do a sampling in case you don't have actionable intelligence) but having a say in everything(where they have no jurisdiction) will surely hurt PR and strengthen the usual remarks i.e. Power lies with ISI and Army...

'I don't know whom to deal with in Pakistan: Indian PM, Why you Indians want power war in Pakistan stop telling Mr10% to grab all the power, he will fail.

 

[Bushy]

From a different point of view, it appears to be a tussle between the GoP and the ISI.

BB too had tried her best to reign in the ISI, especially after her own invention of ISI's political branch was used against her. After that every government, except the PPP, used that piece to keep a check on the opposition.

Now Zardari is trying hard to control the purview of the ISI, by first limiting the powers of the PA. The KL Bill is just one of the many steps in that direction.

And then, the ISI showed its prowess by deploying its highly useful resources to control the 'spies' whose visas have recently been canceled - all that despite losing its indispensable resources that are badly needed elsewhere.

Whether those 'spies' were being brought to Pakistan to keep a close check on the ISI, or were just the copter mechanics, time will tell. But one thing is for sure - ISI is ready to sacrifice anything to keep its control over the state intact.

 

[Bushy]

Self-Delete. Twin posts.

 

[deckingraj]

'I don't know whom to deal with in Pakistan: Indian PM, Why you Indians want power war in Pakistan stop telling Mr10% to grab all the power, he will fail.

Are you going to keep posting these one liners only??? I am talking about something else and you are bringing another one liner which has nothing to do with current discussion...

If you want to have a discussion than respond to my earlier posts...Agree/Disagree with my POV and share's yours...

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

From a different point of view, it appears to be a tussle between the GoP and the ISI.

BB too had tried her best to reign in the ISI, especially after her own invention of ISI's political branch was used against her. After that every government, except the PPP, used that piece to keep a check on the opposition.

Now Zardari is trying hard to control the purview of the ISI, by first limiting the powers of the PA. The KL Bill is just one of the many steps in that direction.

And then, the ISI showed its prowess by deploying its highly useful resources to control the 'spies' whose visas have recently been canceled - all that despite losing its indispensable resources that are badly needed elsewhere.

Whether those 'spies' were being brought to Pakistan to keep a close check on the ISI, or were just the copter mechanics, time will tell. But one thing is for sure - ISI is ready to sacrifice anything to keep its control over the state intact.

'I don't know whom to deal with in Pakistan: Indian PM, Why you Indians want power war in Pakistan stop telling Mr10% to grab all the power, he will fail.

 

[deckingraj]

Interesting thouhgt...I have few questions...

From a different point of view, it appears to be a tussle between the GoP and the ISI.

BB too had tried her best to reign in the ISI, especially after her own invention of ISI's political branch was used against her. After that every government, except the PPP, used that piece to keep a check on the opposition.

Now Zardari is trying hard to control the purview of the ISI, by first limiting the powers of the PA. The KL Bill is just one of the many steps in that direction.

May i ask what role has Zardari played in KL bill.. this was something proposed/prepared by American Congress...All Zardari govt. could do was to have few ammendments(wordings) and accept it...All the conditions were drafted by American congress....Don't you think you are giving too much credit to Zardari???

And then, the ISI showed its prowess by deploying its highly useful resources to control the 'spies' whose visas have recently been canceled - all that despite losing its indispensable resources that are badly needed elsewhere.

Whether those 'spies' were being brought to Pakistan to keep a close check on the ISI, or were just the copter mechanics, time will tell. But one thing is for sure - ISI is ready to sacrifice anything to keep its control over the state intact.

Do you really think that ISI has the spine to cancel VISA of so-called US spies that will come as diplomats??? I am highly doubtful...What do you think??

 

[Bushy]

Interesting thouhgt...I have few questions...




May i ask what role has Zardari played in KL bill.. this was something proposed/prepared by American Congress...All Zardari govt. could do was to have few ammendments(wordings) and accept it...All the conditions were drafted by American congress....Don't you think you are giving too much credit to Zardari???

Yes, you are right when you say that Zardari could not do more than make a few amendments. But, Zardari is also a democratically elected president of that country and could even refuse outright to accept the bill in its entirety. Such a step would have fetched him great commendation from the same public that elected him to power. But he decided to do otherwise.

So, my take is different here:-

As we have seen in the past, the US has always kept the rulers of Pakistan on its side, irrespective of the sentiments of the Pakistani public in general. And it (The USA) even protects those rulers thereafter.

The influence of the US in Pakistan's politics works like an anticipatory bail for the past life sins of these rulers. As is happening with Musharraf. Why else would the UK (read: USA) government spend millions to maintain him in London?

So what I say is, from the 'forced alignment' of Pakistan with the US in the WoT to such subsequent proposals and bills (like Kerry Lugar), are all parts of the mutual trade between the rulers of Pakistan and the Government of the USA. And it is no secret how the ISI looks at Zardari. The best Zardari could do, and the US could propose, to stave off the the perpetual threat from the ISI, has come in the form of the Kerry Lugar Bill. The civilian president gets to control the money, and the US gets to control the top promotions in the PA. A double edged sword.

So although Zardari couldn't do more than a few amendments in the Bill, the words in the bill sure must have brought a smile on his face.

Do you really think that ISI has the spine to cancel VISA of so-called US spies that will come as diplomats??? I am highly doubtful...What do you think??

You are right, the ISI cannot touch the diplomats, from the US, but it can certainly keep a close eye on those who might tend to work against the agendas of the ISI. I certainly won't know what those agendas might be specifically be, but they sure must not be congruent with those of Zardari. It is very much possible that Zardari might be inviting intelligence and other useful assets to work against the ISI, and the ISI will certainly never leave a stone unturned to neutralize such threats.

 

[Bushy]

'I don't know whom to deal with in Pakistan: Indian PM, Why you Indians want power war in Pakistan stop telling Mr10% to grab all the power, he will fail.

You fail.

Mr. 10% is already in power.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

You fail.

Mr. 10% is already in power.

He failed to sent ISI chief to India for questioning and put ISI under interior ministry as per Indian demand

 

[Bushy]

He failed to sent ISI chief to India for questioning and put ISI under interior ministry as per Indian demand

You just disproved yourself. Thank you

 

[deckingraj]

Yes, you are right when you say that Zardari could not do more than make a few amendments. But, Zardari is also a democratically elected president of that country and could even refuse outright to accept the bill in its entirety. Such a step would have fetched him great commendation from the same public that elected him to power. But he decided to do otherwise.

I agree so far...He could have decided to not take the KL bill....However on what grounds he can refuse the bill? That would have a big blow to civilian govt. as they used this bill to project their power to deal with US...not even going into the need for this money as far as Pak is concerned...

So, my take is different here:-

As we have seen in the past, the US has always kept the rulers of Pakistan on its side, irrespective of the sentiments of the Pakistani public in general. And it (The USA) even protects those rulers thereafter.

The influence of the US in Pakistan's politics works like an anticipatory bail for the past life sins of these rulers. As is happening with Musharraf. Why else would the UK (read: USA) government spend millions to maintain him in London?

So far i am in agreement...

So what I say is, from the 'forced alignment' of Pakistan with the US in the WoT to such subsequent proposals and bills (like Kerry Lugar), are all parts of the mutual trade between the rulers of Pakistan and the Government of the USA. And it is no secret how the ISI looks at Zardari. The best Zardari could do, and the US could propose, to stave off the the perpetual threat from the ISI, has come in the form of the Kerry Lugar Bill. The civilian president gets to control the money, and the US gets to control the top promotions in the PA. A double edged sword.

So although Zardari couldn't do more than a few amendments in the Bill, the words in the bill sure must have brought a smile on his face.

well if you are suggesting that Zardari will use this bill for his cause than i am all fine...However there are theories that similar(atleast on paper) deals were signed between Musharraf and US however this being a civilian govt. things are out for public discussion...Secondly most of the conditions are because of this widely conceived phenomenon in US think tanks that Pak has used their money for waging war agasint India(something that was a key issue raised by Obama during his election campaigns) so i am kind of doubting that US drafted this bill to make Zardari strong...

You are right, the ISI cannot touch the diplomats, from the US, but it can certainly keep a close eye on those who might tend tend to work against the agendas of the ISI. I certainly won't know what those agendas might be specifically, but they sure must not be congruent with those of Zardari. It is very much possible that Zardari might be inviting intelligence and other useful assets to work against the ISI, and the ISI will certainly never leave a stone unturned to neutralize such threats.

well i cannot comment on that...However President of a country needing intelligence agents of another country to keep a check on intelligence agents of his own country sounds a bit strage...but then when it comes to Pakistan things become really complex...So can't say much here...

 

[BATMAN]

You fail.

Mr. 10% is already in power.

He withold 10% payment of presidential votes until those were confirmed by the pictures of vote.
He is powerful because india and US support this type of democracy and not any other type of democracy.

 

[Bushy]

I agree so far...He could have decided to not take the KL bill....However on what grounds he can refuse the bill? That would have a big blow to civilian govt. as they used this bill to project their power to deal with US...not even going into the need for this money as far as Pak is concerned...

The Bill was shameful for Pakistanis in general, because they cannot see a government led by a corrupt president dictate the PA on how to go with the promotions. So I doubt Zardari could show any great pride in accepting the Bill. Rather rejection of the bill might have fetched him greater goodwill - My opinion.

well if you are suggesting that Zardari will use this bill for his cause than i am all fine...However there are theories that similar(atleast on paper) deals were signed between Musharraf and US however this being a civilian govt. things are out for public discussion...Secondly most of the conditions are because of this widely conceived phenomenon in US think tanks that Pak has used their money for waging war agasint India(something that was a key issue raised by Obama during his election campaigns) so i am kind of doubting that US drafted this bill to make Zardari strong...

The bold part is exactly what I imply.

And the perception of the US that Pakistan uses the arms and finances to use against India, has been fed by Indians (rightly or wrongly, I do not know), and whatever be the truth, the US will see this as an opportunity of greater control over Pakistan in buying this perception.

well i cannot comment on that...However President of a country needing intelligence agents of another country to keep a check on intelligence agents of his own country sounds a bit strage...but then when it comes to Pakistan things become really complex...So can't say much here...

It is not that he needs the intelligence of another country (even racially, culturally, and linguistically different) to keep a check on the ISI. What I mean is, Zardari wants to use the intelligence of the Americans (be it in form of local Pakistanis, Indians, black Africans, or white Americans) to substitute the intelligence used by the ISI, with his own. He will not be using them internally, but externally to work on Pakistan's foreign policy his own way. Hence the ISI now tapping on the visa power and asserting its importance. After all, whoever shows to have a greater control of Pakistan, will deal with the Americans in dollars.

 

[deckingraj]

^^^^^^^^^^^

Though i disagree with some of your points however i am in agreement with the larger picture that you projected...It was good to talk with you....