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ISI and MI fear spike in terrorism

No I don't, and I agree with you that the plan was not feasible. But in the end, had the USSR tried anything of the sorts, or established a puppet regime in A-stan, it would have been trouble for Pakistan.

Now you getting my point. The USSR getting to the Sea or attacking Pakistan is not the point, the point I am making is that any intention to do so would have spelled trouble for Pakistan, and it would have spilled over into the border.

They were the primary arms supplier to enemy forces and as far as I'm concerned - that in and of itself was enough reason to teach them a lesson.

Communism as an ideology was polluting minds and it had no place anyways in the region. It had to be confronted by force which is what we did.

History has not judged those well who supported the soviet occupation. We know who those people are who yap their beaks about human rights but forgot what soviet gunships were doing to entire villages in Afghanistan
 
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No I don't, and I agree with you that the plan was not feasible. But in the end, had the USSR tried anything of the sorts, or established a puppet regime in A-stan, it would have been trouble for Pakistan.

Now you getting my point. The USSR getting to the Sea or attacking Pakistan is not the point, the point I am making is that any intention to do so would have spelled trouble for Pakistan, and it would have spilled over into the border.

That spillover (the actual expression should be blow-back) in Pakistan was inevitable given Pakistan's neck-deep involvement in Afghanistan. So as you say: that there was trouble in store for Pakistan. That script of "trouble in store for Pakistan" got written
as soon as Pakistan got involved in creating and leading the Taliban in Afghanistan. Then what the Americans did to Pakistan, Pakistan did to the Taliban. The script now got even gorier. What we are seeing and will continue to see (Americans present or not in Afghanistan) will be a continuation of that script.

The first para of your post makes little sense' the Soviets had already installed a puppet Regime in Afghanistan. Though your post reads differently. What was the Soviet intention in doing so? To attack Pakistan? No; it was to buttress their southern flank. Any move beyond that did not make strategic sense for the Soviets, nor was it sustainable.

I cannot see how Pakistan can be (and has been) involved in Afghan matters and still hope to remain immune from all the effects of it.
It is like a feeding some mad dogs living in a (dysfunctional) neighbor's yard and then thinking that the dogs will not attack even more so considering that there is no fence or wall to keep the dogs away from you.
 
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TTP being supported by Afghanistan Govt, Afghanistan Govt being supported by America if you catch my drift. TTP cannot be done for until the Americans leave.

And Americans supported by Pakistan so in essence, TTP is supported by Pakistan.

Get rid of America, 90% of problems will disappear!
 
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It's much deeper and more complex than that as you are already aware. Don't be naive.

As for the fight itself - let it go on. Nobody said it will be short and quick. In the broader scheme of things we have the basis for great ties with Astan (not sure about other whiny regional tramps) given rich cross over of tribes and shared history but that will only materialize once they get their acts together and we "formalize" by laying down rules rather than givin them a blank check to come in and backstab us.

Some of these So called Islamists are really just poor azz refugees who grew up pissing in mud holes in camps (the ones who were least fortunate). There will always be those externally and - alas - even internally who will sell their soul to the devil for currency. This fake jeehad of theirs may be profitable but it sure is a farce and those who are informed about the subject can call their bluff


(Not downplaying the fact that there has been rising intolerance)

On the contrary, I not being naive, and also on the contrary, I disagree that the fight will be long, as a matter of fact I thnk the fight will be rather short and intense, IF, the Pakistani state and armed forces are decided that this Islam mongering business and the use of proxies is to be discarded, an idea whose time has past.

I think you give very little attention to WHY this problem has persisted - it persists because we in Pakistan, love our Islam mongering business, we are not prepared to give it up, we are not prepared to make the changes in our society that De-ligitimize these ideas -- when we decide to ma it happen, you will be surprised at how fast it can happen, not just t military defeat of Islamists but of Islam mongering in society itself, I say this because society has changed much and I offer as evidence IK and the PTI and the kind of politics it portends - yes, there is much about IK and his penchant for the Jamaat e Islami, this unnerving, but if you look at the bigger picture, you will note that society is at a crossroads of a kind, and while PTI may fail in it's effort to form a govt, what it has already succeeded in pointing out the growing political dichotomy in society.
 
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That spillover (the actual expression should be blow-back) in Pakistan was inevitable given Pakistan's neck-deep involvement in Afghanistan. So as you say: that there was trouble in store for Pakistan. That script of "trouble in store for Pakistan" got written
as soon as Pakistan got involved in creating and leading the Taliban in Afghanistan. Then what the Americans did to Pakistan, Pakistan did to the Taliban. The script now got even gorier. What we are seeing and will continue to see (Americans present or not in Afghanistan) will be a continuation of that script.

Agreed.

The first para of your post makes little sense' the Soviets had already installed a puppet Regime in Afghanistan. Though your post reads differently. What was the Soviet intention in doing so? To attack Pakistan? No; it was to buttress their southern flank. Any move beyond that did not make strategic sense for the Soviets, nor was it sustainable.

The first part was due to a loss of attention on my part. As for the rest, yes, the Soviet intention in the beginning was never to invade or attack Pakistan or anything of the sort, but don't you think that going years down the road something might have happened...? The whole idea of Soviet presence in the region was giving us heeby jeebies, the communism idea, we never were comfortable with Soviets around us or anybody towing the communism line (whatever the reasons). Remember Faiz Ahmed Faiz?

I cannot see how Pakistan can be (and has been) involved in Afghan matters and still hope to remain immune from all the effects of it.

I don't think we hope to remain immune from the effects, do we?
 
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They were the primary arms supplier to enemy forces and as far as I'm concerned - that in and of itself was enough reason to teach them a lesson.

Communism as an ideology was polluting minds and it had no place anyways in the region. It had to be confronted by force which is what we did.

History has not judged those well who supported the soviet occupation. We know who those people are who yap their beaks about human rights but forgot what soviet gunships were doing to entire villages in Afghanistan

Agreed revenge for 71 was a must so it was only fitting that the Soviets were forced to fold after they were kicked out of Afghanistan. Zia in the beginning did not even want to support the Afghans but it was after US promised him continued support he agreed to it. Also everyone knows the Soviets have always eyed a warm water port since the days of The Great Game and even to this very day. Think Peter the Great or Prince Gorchakov.
 
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The first part was due to a loss of attention on my part. As for the rest, yes, the Soviet intention in the beginning was never to invade or attack Pakistan or anything of the sort, but don't you think that going years down the road something might have happened...? The whole idea of Soviet presence in the region was giving us heeby jeebies, the communism idea, we never were comfortable with Soviets around us or anybody towing the communism line (whatever the reasons). Remember Faiz Ahmed Faiz?

I don't think we hope to remain immune from the effects, do we?

Communism, esp the Soviet variety had become an abomination; that is principally the reason that it sank and sank so rapidly at that. That is wrt to Communism as a political system.

If we objectively analyse Communism and its mechanisms in Foreign Policy; then one is likely to see a different picture- especially post Stalinist era Communism. With time as it became manifest that it was failing as a method of governance the Soviets became milder in their dealings. So far as the Cold War atmospherics were concerned; ironically both the Soviets and the Americans were similarly ruthless in dealing with smaller countries or countries that they viewed as client-states. In their Imperialistic world view; both Americans and Soviets unrelentingly worked to carve out spheres of influence and consequently created havoc the world over. The Chinese then and now cannot be accused of a similar scale of wrong-doing at all.

In Afghanistan; historically Imperial Russia and then later the Soviets saw a vulnerable under-belly below their CAR fiefdom. The depredations of the British Empire had caused enough headaches to them. Then the Americans via CENTO co-opted Pakistan into the task of setting up a noose around USSR in the region. That is how Pakistan willingly became a hand-maiden to the American scheming for the region. That peculiar relationship has continued over 6 decades with its roller-coaster dips, rises and swings. The USSR disintegrated; largely because of its inbuilt anachronisms and contradictions, not so much because of American and Pakistani efforts. Just that the demise of the Soviet Empire finally coincided with the American-Saudi-Pakistani alliance in Afghanistan. But the tripartite alliance was directed at short term interests and of a very few parties/individuals. Even the methods used were double-edged as we can see with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight now.
Now who will be left holding the can?

The Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, battered and bruised. The Americans will do something similar with much lesser damage; because they were/are inherently much stronger than the Soviets ever were. The Saudis as Bankers only, were pretty much less exposed to the fallout.
But where will Pakistan go? Afghanistan can be a much more toxic brew than it ever was when the "Bear Trap" was sprung and Pakistan is more vulnerable now than that time.
That bears thinking about quite deeply.

@nuclearpak; Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Qurratulain Hyder, Firaq Gorakhpuri and others of the 'fellow traveller" ilk were far less of a threat than some of the motley bunch of Mulla Diesels and Mulla Radios can be! :)
 
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What has surprised me most is today’s news that 49,000 Pakistanis have been killed by the terrorists who have been out to destabilize Pakistan. Yet, we see that there are voices that blame every other entity including the United States for the terrorist activities in Pakistan but the militants. The conspiracy theorists deliberately ignore the fact that after each attack, the terrorists proudly claim responsibility and promise to inflict more damages. They cannot plague our minds with mere lies and propagandas. There is a serious threat from an enemy who indiscriminately targets our forces on both sides of the border. Together we have broken their backs, but the few who have holed themselves in their caves, and only come out to inflict their pain will also be dealt with. The threats of attacks are there and rest assured that they will be neutralized soon.


Abdul Quddus
DET-United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command
 
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What has surprised me most is today’s news that 49,000 Pakistanis have been killed by the terrorists who have been out to destabilize Pakistan. Yet, we see that there are voices that blame every other entity including the United States for the terrorist activities in Pakistan but the militants. The conspiracy theorists deliberately ignore the fact that after each attack, the terrorists proudly claim responsibility and promise to inflict more damages. They cannot plague our minds with mere lies and propagandas. There is a serious threat from an enemy who indiscriminately targets our forces on both sides of the border. Together we have broken their backs, but the few who have holed themselves in their caves, and only come out to inflict their pain will also be dealt with. The threats of attacks are there and rest assured that they will be neutralized soon.


Abdul Quddus
DET-United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command

Welcome to "Ali in Islamistan" my friend where every allah ho akbar chanting person is as innocent as an angel and all ills of society are due to foreign influence such as Hindoo baniyans, Yahoodi shazish and amreeki policy!
 
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I am not denying for even a moment that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan to install and prop-up a puppet regime. My contention was only confined to the canard that was spread about the Soviet desire for access to the Arabian Sea or "Garam Pani". That was militarily unsustainable. Any half-way decent General would be able to fathom that; even a logically thinking Armchair General would understand that. ..............

Interesting debate. My POV is closer to the Pakistanis on this one.

First, let's talk about the military plan to invade Pakistan to reach the fabled warm water ports. You can say today, as have some others over the past few years, that a Soviet invasion of Pakistan was "militarily unsustainable".

I say that hindsight vision is 20:20. It may be obvious now, but at the time of the Afghanistan invasion, no one I know of had definite insights into Soviet weaknesses. Soviet economic, political and military weaknesses became apparent and 'logical' later on with the fall of communism. At the time, they were shrouded in a veil that projected strength as much as it hid any weaknesses. At the time, they were a military juggernaut, that had not hesitated to lead armies into other nations over the decades.

Second, within the context of the Cold War, access to "warm waters" does not necessarily mean a war or an invasion of Pakistan. The Cold War was played out mostly through influence in client states. Thus the Soviets and USA struggled in Latin America, in Asia, in Africa to maintain regional dominance- hence the plots and counter plots, coups, murders and assassinations. So it isn't necessary that the Soviets would invade Pakistan soon after Afghanistan.

Instead, once established in Afghanistan, Pakistan would find a hostile power right in its backyard, and one already to its front (India). From there on the Soviet plan would have been in a direct to influence, suborn and undermine American interests in Pakistan. It is not unfeasible to assume that one outcome could be that Pakistan under pressure and economic blandishments could have become a client state of the USSR, or at least a neutral, and then the communists would then have access to warm waters without having to fire a shot. This was a typical Cold War play, played over decades, not the next few years and or wars.

Finally, Armies also react to capabilities, not intentions. Who knows what the Soviet intentions were a the time? And without significant insights into Soviet capabilities, the Pakistan Army perforce had to assume the worst. How would we react if China invaded and occupied Bangladesh, and then said it was only 'trying to support the Bangladeshi people'?
 
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TTP being supported by Afghanistan Govt, Afghanistan Govt being supported by America if you catch my drift. TTP cannot be done for until the Americans leave.

Only if world was that simple!! Let is supported by Pak, Pak is supported by china, Can we start accusing china for LET now??
 
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Can't wait for the Anericans to leave, then we will be able to do what is in Pakistans interests.

End of TTP
Support for Afghan Taliban
Sending Afghans back to Afghanistan.
Pro-Pakistani Afghanistan
Peaceful area with no conflicts of interest.
If dreams become reality, I will be richest person on earth. US is not spending so much just to wait for you to undo it. You wish Taliban rule for Afghanistan but same time you do not want TTP. Stop bullying Afghanistan.
 
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In Afghanistan; historically Imperial Russia and then later the Soviets saw a vulnerable under-belly below their CAR fiefdom. The depredations of the British Empire had caused enough headaches to them. Then the Americans via CENTO co-opted Pakistan into the task of setting up a noose around USSR in the region. That is how Pakistan willingly became a hand-maiden to the American scheming for the region. That peculiar relationship has continued over 6 decades with its roller-coaster dips, rises and swings. The USSR disintegrated; largely because of its inbuilt anachronisms and contradictions, not so much because of American and Pakistani efforts. Just that the demise of the Soviet Empire finally coincided with the American-Saudi-Pakistani alliance in Afghanistan. But the tripartite alliance was directed at short term interests and of a very few parties/individuals. Even the methods used were double-edged as we can see with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight now.
Now who will be left holding the can?

We were leaning towards US a few years before CENTO. Liaquat Ali Khan had two options, he visited US instead of USSR when the ruskies denied us any sort of military aid and such while the US was quick to do so. As for the rest, I agree with you.

The Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, battered and bruised. The Americans will do something similar with much lesser damage; because they were/are inherently much stronger than the Soviets ever were. The Saudis as Bankers only, were pretty much less exposed to the fallout.
But where will Pakistan go? Afghanistan can be a much more toxic brew than it ever was when the "Bear Trap" was sprung and Pakistan is more vulnerable now than that time.
That bears thinking about quite deeply.

Pakistan became vulerable to it when the Ruskies attacked Afghanistan.

@nuclearpak; Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Qurratulain Hyder, Firaq Gorakhpuri and others of the 'fellow traveller" ilk were far less of a threat than some of the motley bunch of Mulla Diesels and Mulla Radios can be! :)

To you and me and other folks on this board, yes, to most people on the street, sadly no.
 
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