ISI and MI fear spike in terrorism

[Cheetah786]

So India is supporting Afghan intelligence in return ANA and afghan intelligence is carrying out Terrorist attacks in pakistan thats why we cant find any concrete evidence against India.

Afghans Intelligence using afghans refuges camps and residence to hide and hire terrorist from. If we know all that why isn't their any action against afghan refugees in pakistan?why arent we sending them back home?

L J ,TTP and ASWJ arent afghans but are responsible for majority of terrorist attacks within pakistan they enjoy complete immunity and have a large base of support among some Pakistanis. Our intelligence agencies fear more terrorist attacks but refuses to acknowledge the problem so a cure can begin.Some things is got to give keep blaming the world while ignoring the elephant in the room not going to hold.

 

[neehar]

So India is supporting Afghan intelligence in return ANA and afghan intelligence is carrying out Terrorist attacks in pakistan thats why we cant find any concrete evidence against India.

Afghans Intelligence using afghans refuges camps and residence to hide and hire terrorist from. If we know all that why isn't their any action against afghan refugees in pakistan?why arent we sending them back home?

frankly india dont need to do that...besides we have bigger things to worry about than pakistan..

 

[muse]

frankly india dont need to do that...besides we have bigger things to worry about than pakistan..

So why bother posting here - and don't ive me any of that "India is resting on my narrow shoulders" stuff - be a good boy and Go and worry about your bigger things -

 

[Bang Galore]

Can't wait for the Anericans to leave, then we will be able to do what is in Pakistans interests.

End of TTP
Support for Afghan Taliban
Sending Afghans back to Afghanistan.
Pro-Pakistani Afghanistan
Peaceful area with no conflicts of interest.

I know what doesn't have to wait for the Americans to leave Afghanistan.............Some medicines for delusion !

 

[illusion8]

Can't wait for the Anericans to leave, then we will be able to do what is in Pakistans interests.

End of TTP
Support for Afghan Taliban
Sending Afghans back to Afghanistan.
Pro-Pakistani Afghanistan
Peaceful area with no conflicts of interest.

The world has changed the last two decades, the Afghans are more knowledgeable now compared to when they were thankful to Pakistan for getting rid of the Soviets - now they are pissed on Pakistan for bringing WOT on them and one might also wonder how much leverage does Pakistan have to manipulate the situation again.

One more thing to wonder here is if Pakistan thinks RAW / CIA controls TTP. BLA and all anti Pakistan groups - will it not be right to assume that RAW / CIA also has connections with the Taliban?

The reason for this is all these groups are inter linked and TTP operates majorly out of Taliban controlled areas in Afghanistan - they probably share fighters too.

 

[janon]

People of Pakistan never made TALIBANS... NEVER Fight Amerika'z War, Never interested to interfere in Afghanistan and fight against Roooos, People of Pakistan never make deal with American to become ally of USA in WOT.... the only responsible of all this ***** is PAKISTAN ARMY! who always do WHATEVER USA want! so the responsible of 49,000 Pakistani's are PAKISTAN POLICY MAKERS known as "Establishment".

Look, that doesn't really make any difference. Ultimately it is the governmental agencies that make deals, that prop up fanatical regimes, and do anything on behalf of the country. When people say the USA nuked Japan, it is understood that it was the army (army air force) that bombed japan, and not the friendly baker's family in jerkwater. Nobody makes an argument that it was the army that did it and not "the people". Governmental arms do these actions on behalf of the country.

Also, in this particular case of Pakistan, and Taliban and WoT and Soviet war and so on, its not like the army or the govt led the unwilling "people" of Pakistan into all this mess. Private citizens of Pakistan formed militias and volunteered for jihad in Afghanistan, and fought alongside the regular army. I don't think (correct me if I am wrong on this) there was any significant public opposition from Pakistani intellectuals or society when Pakistan propped up and supported the horrible Taliban rule in Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001. It wasn't a case of ruthless dictators overriding people's will and doing things on their behalf. Most Pakistanis were indifferent to such activities, and some of them were more than happy.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Let's see...what would you have done when the USSR would be at your doorstep all those years back? Wouldn't the USSR further ingress (afterall, one of the objectives IMO was to gain water access) and create trouble in Pakistan?

Moving on, the Taliban are created, USSR breaks up, all is fine, then suddenly 9/11 happens. Then what? What would you have done?Would you have just sit quietly while the US has a war next door, and the Taliban take refuge in our country The US would have come after them after all...no?

Moving on even further...right now the question isn't that who started it, whose fault was it etc, the question is that what should be done. We need to look further now, jo hogaya so hogaya, look forward. We need to stop this blame game, USA is meddling in this country, but does that mean we just sit on our lazy ***** all day and repeat the mantra like a dua that 'USA did it, USA did it, USA did it'?

We need to move forward in our best possible interests. Let bygones be bygones.

@nuclearpak: even you seem to have succumbed to the "disinformation" trotted out by Zia and USA about that "Garam Pani" bizniss. The USSR was in Afghanistan just to buttress its Southern Flank through a pliable regime. That was always the MO of the Soviets. It also coincided with the period when the whole Soviet Empire with its 'impressive facade' used to scare the shits out of the USA at whose helm was 'half-way literate, half-way senile' guys like Ronald Reagan. But the truth was that that 'impressive facade was as good as Hollywood Set' because the Soviet System was a fast crumbling structure behind that edifice. An edifice that was nearly in financial bankruptcy, that it was simply unaffordable to remain in Afghanistan. Plus the System was even unable to either enthuse or demand its citizens to continue becoming casualties for a great cause!

Gernail Zia needed to float that fiction to portray himself as a regional Strongman, as a modern-day Khalifa of the Ummah. And win US and KSA support including shekels required to finance him and his cause.
While the Americans needed this to remove the morbid fear that they had of how Communism would engulf the world. So they made common cause and became a 'brotherhood of thieves' in Afghanistan.

The precarious condition that the Soviets were in; they could have scarcely stabilised themselves in Afghanistan, leave alone overrun Pakistan to reach the Arabian Sea.
That "Garam Pani" story was just a load of "Garam Hawa"! A Canard.

Let's see...what would you have done when the USSR would be at your doorstep all those years back? Wouldn't the USSR further ingress (afterall, one of the objectives IMO was to gain water access) and create trouble in Pakistan?

Moving on, the Taliban are created, USSR breaks up, all is fine, then suddenly 9/11 happens. Then what? What would you have done?Would you have just sit quietly while the US has a war next door, and the Taliban take refuge in our country The US would have come after them after all...no?

Moving on even further...right now the question isn't that who started it, whose fault was it etc, the question is that what should be done. We need to look further now, jo hogaya so hogaya, look forward. We need to stop this blame game, USA is meddling in this country, but does that mean we just sit on our lazy ***** all day and repeat the mantra like a dua that 'USA did it, USA did it, USA did it'?

We need to move forward in our best possible interests. Let bygones be bygones.

@nuclearpak: even you seem to have succumbed to the "disinformation" trotted out by Zia and USA about that "Garam Pani" bizniss. The USSR was in Afghanistan just to buttress its Southern Flank through a pliable regime. That was always the MO of the Soviets. It also coincided with the period when the whole Soviet Empire with its 'impressive facade' used to scare the shits out of the USA at whose helm was 'half-way literate, half-way senile' guys like Ronald Reagan. But the truth was that that 'impressive facade was as good as Hollywood Set' because the Soviet System was a fast crumbling structure behind that edifice. An edifice that was nearly in financial bankruptcy, that it was simply unaffordable to remain in Afghanistan. Plus the System was even unable to either enthuse or demand its citizens to continue becoming casualties for a great cause!

Gernail Zia needed to float that fiction to portray himself as a regional Strongman, as a modern-day Khalifa of the Ummah. And win US and KSA support including shekels required to finance him and his cause.
While the Americans needed this to remove the morbid fear that they had of how Communism would engulf the world. So they made common cause and became a 'brotherhood of thieves' in Afghanistan.

The precarious condition that the Soviets were in; they could have scarcely stabilised themselves in Afghanistan, leave alone overrun Pakistan to reach the Arabian Sea.
That "Garam Pani" story was just a load of "Garam Hawa"! A Canard.

 

[Jango]

@nuclearpak: even you seem to have succumbed to the "disinformation" trotted out by Zia and USA about that "Garam Pani" bizniss. The USSR was in Afghanistan just to buttress its Southern Flank through a pliable regime. That was always the MO of the Soviets. It also coincided with the period when the whole Soviet Empire with its 'impressive facade' used to scare the shits out of the USA at whose helm was 'half-way literate, half-way senile' guys like Ronald Reagan. But the truth was that that 'impressive facade was as good as Hollywood Set' because the Soviet System was a fast crumbling structure behind that edifice. An edifice that was nearly in financial bankruptcy, that it was simply unaffordable to remain in Afghanistan. Plus the System was even unable to either enthuse or demand its citizens to continue becoming casualties for a great cause!

Gernail Zia needed to float that fiction to portray himself as a regional Strongman, as a modern-day Khalifa of the Ummah. And win US and KSA support including shekels required to finance him and his cause.
While the Americans needed this to remove the morbid fear that they had of how Communism would engulf the world. So they made common cause and became a 'brotherhood of thieves' in Afghanistan.

The precarious condition that the Soviets were in; they could have scarcely stabilised themselves in Afghanistan, leave alone overrun Pakistan to reach the Arabian Sea.
That "Garam Pani" story was just a load of "Garam Hawa"! A Canard.

Well...I don't consider myself as one of those who is in that illusion...I agree with you that the USSR was already a crumbling state and it had other objectives in it's south than reaching water, but don't you think that eventually had the USSR gained a foothold in Afghanistan, it would have ventured further forward (or rather East) into Pakistan?

I personally believe that it would have and that was the danger being posed to Pakistan at that time, I don't think there were any guarantees that the USSR would say put and limit her ingress...were they?

This is the point I was trying to make.

 

[somebozo]

Now ISI is fearing their own creation..very funny!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Well...I don't consider myself as one of those who is in that illusion...I agree with you that the USSR was already a crumbling state and it had other objectives in it's south than reaching water, but don't you think that eventually had the USSR gained a foothold in Afghanistan, it would have ventured further forward (or rather East) into Pakistan?

I personally believe that it would have and that was the danger being posed to Pakistan at that time, I don't think there were any guarantees that the USSR would say put and limit her ingress...were they?

This is the point I was trying to make.

Was even 'reaching the Arabian Sea' an objective? As I explained in my post; the Soviet policy was to work through proxy Govts. Which they accomplished in Afghanistan. But what hope did they have in Pakistan of doing that? Invasion of Pakistan was just out of the question. When the Afghan (mis)adventure had been embarked upon; the Soviets were already internally in dire straits. Maybe the Americans knew that or they did not. If they knew that; then they and Zia just closed in for the 'coup de grace'. If they did not, then they were driven by morbid fear on one side (American) and selfish self-interest on the other (Zia).

But the idea of driving through Pakistan to reach "Garam Pani" was simply a work of fiction. Which was militarily unsustainable. If that was the Soviet objective; would it not have been easier and cheaper to co-opt Iran in to the task?

Now ISI is fearing their own creation..very funny!

Is'nt that the story of Frankenstein and his Creator retold?

 

[muse]

Was even 'reaching the Arabian Sea' an objective? As I explained in my post; the Soviet policy was to work through proxy Govts. Which they accomplished in Afghanistan. But what hope did they have in Pakistan of doing that? Invasion of Pakistan was just out of the question. When the Afghan (mis)adventure had been embarked upon; the Soviets were already internally in dire straits. Maybe the Americans knew that or they did not. If they knew that; then they and Zia just closed in for the 'coup de grace'. If they did not, then they were driven by morbid fear on one side (American) and selfish self-interest on the other (Zia).

But the idea of driving through Pakistan to reach "Garam Pani" was simply a work of fiction. Which was militarily unsustainable. If that was the Soviet objective; would it not have been easier and cheaper to co-opt Iran in to the task?



Is'nt that the story of Frankenstein and his Creator retold?

Lets be clear, there was an entirely different paradigm at work then, suspicion of Soviet intentions was the norm - and please be fair, Afghanistan was invaded, in the same way it was invaded by the US, and both invasions led to great insecurity and responses in Pakistan

 

[Jango]

Was even 'reaching the Arabian Sea' an objective? As I explained in my post; the Soviet policy was to work through proxy Govts. Which they accomplished in Afghanistan. But what hope did they have in Pakistan of doing that? Invasion of Pakistan was just out of the question. When the Afghan (mis)adventure had been embarked upon; the Soviets were already internally in dire straits. Maybe the Americans knew that or they did not. If they knew that; then they and Zia just closed in for the 'coup de grace'. If they did not, then they were driven by morbid fear on one side (American) and selfish self-interest on the other (Zia).

Please note, I am not saying that the USSR would have straight away started to move further south. I think I mentioned in a previous post that after USSR had stabilized itself in Afghanistan, they would have started to mve further south.

Maybe it just a case of taking chances, we couldn't take the chance and wait to see whether USSR did indeed move forward, or consolidate their position in Afghanistan. We all know how plans change midway...

But the idea of driving through Pakistan to reach "Garam Pani" was simply a work of fiction. Which was militarily unsustainable. If that was the Soviet objective; would it not have been easier and cheaper to co-opt Iran in to the task?

Yes it would have been...maybe the USSR planned to do just that after they had consolidated their position in Afghainstan...but then the Taliban proved to be more than a match for the Soviets and the consolidated position never came.

See muse's post, that is what I am trying to say, there was suspicion on the USSR's intentions and everybody knew that this mess would spill over, just like it is spilling over into Pakistan now, only that it is the US instead of USSR.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Lets be clear, there was an entirely different paradigm at work then, suspicion of Soviet intentions was the norm - and please be fair, Afghanistan was invaded, in the same way it was invaded by the US, and both invasions led to great insecurity and responses in Pakistan

I am not denying for even a moment that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan to install and prop-up a puppet regime. My contention was only confined to the canard that was spread about the Soviet desire for access to the Arabian Sea or "Garam Pani". That was militarily unsustainable. Any half-way decent General would be able to fathom that; even a logically thinking Armchair General would understand that. Pakistan was not Afghanistan that it could be just overrun and occupied. As it is the logistics of occupation in Afghanistan was beyond Soviet's dwindling capabilities. And if that was indeed the Soviet intention, then I have even explained the alternative that the Soviets had via Iran.

This "spin-a-yarn" tactic was not used in (and by) Pakistan and by the Americans for the first time; neither has it been the last time. The natural corollary to that was how the the US-Pakistani relationship evaporated after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. That says a lot on how and why the whole thing was created and executed. All related to each other.

Please note, I am not saying that the USSR would have straight away started to move further south. I think I mentioned in a previous post that after USSR had stabilized itself in Afghanistan, they would have started to mve further south.

Maybe it just a case of taking chances, we couldn't take the chance and wait to see whether USSR did indeed move forward, or consolidate their position in Afghanistan. We all know how plans change midway...



Yes it would have been...maybe the USSR planned to do just that after they had consolidated their position in Afghainstan...but then the Taliban proved to be more than a match for the Soviets and the consolidated position never came.

See muse's post, that is what I am trying to say, there was suspicion on the USSR's intentions and everybody knew that this mess would spill over, just like it is spilling over into Pakistan now, only that it is the US instead of USSR.

Do you believe that such a 'plan of action' (as you postulate) was POSSIBLE to be executed?

Please note, I am not saying that the USSR would have straight away started to move further south. I think I mentioned in a previous post that after USSR had stabilized itself in Afghanistan, they would have started to mve further south.

Maybe it just a case of taking chances, we couldn't take the chance and wait to see whether USSR did indeed move forward, or consolidate their position in Afghanistan. We all know how plans change midway...



Yes it would have been...maybe the USSR planned to do just that after they had consolidated their position in Afghainstan...but then the Taliban proved to be more than a match for the Soviets and the consolidated position never came.

See muse's post, that is what I am trying to say, there was suspicion on the USSR's intentions and everybody knew that this mess would spill over, just like it is spilling over into Pakistan now, only that it is the US instead of USSR.

Do you believe that such a 'plan of action' (as you postulate) was POSSIBLE to be executed?

 

[Jango]

Do you believe that such a 'plan of action' (as you postulate) was POSSIBLE to be executed?

No I don't, and I agree with you that the plan was not feasible. But in the end, had the USSR tried anything of the sorts, or established a puppet regime in A-stan, it would have been trouble for Pakistan.

Now you getting my point. The USSR getting to the Sea or attacking Pakistan is not the point, the point I am making is that any intention to do so would have spelled trouble for Pakistan, and it would have spilled over into the border.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Some Pakistanis seem to now made it a home truth that Pakistani forces are not responsible for the security of Pakistan, but instead US, India and the Martians, are. Instead of killing off the Islamist militants, they argue that once the US leaves Afghanistan, that the TTP will die, the Wahabi sectarian will die off, the so called ethnic "nationalists" will die off, it will be heaven on earth, all with out Pakistanis having to take the strong and painful decisions that they must take, if there is to be a viable Pakistan.

49,000 Pakistanis have now been killed by the Islamist militants, yet "do nothings" choose to blame the US, Indians and any other for this calamity -- unfortunately many more thousands of Pakistanis will have to suffer brutal deaths, and perhaps even then, Pakistanis will prefer to "do nothing" or may give up to the Islamist militants.

It's much deeper and more complex than that as you are already aware. Don't be naive.

As for the fight itself - let it go on. Nobody said it will be short and quick. In the broader scheme of things we have the basis for great ties with Astan (not sure about other whiny regional tramps) given rich cross over of tribes and shared history but that will only materialize once they get their acts together and we "formalize" by laying down rules rather than givin them a blank check to come in and backstab us.

Some of these So called Islamists are really just poor azz refugees who grew up pissing in mud holes in camps (the ones who were least fortunate). There will always be those externally and - alas - even internally who will sell their soul to the devil for currency. This fake jeehad of theirs may be profitable but it sure is a farce and those who are informed about the subject can call their bluff


(Not downplaying the fact that there has been rising intolerance)