Is this the end of Islam? or there is some silver-lining?

[The SC]

i think you confused my post a bit, i was trying to say that That day Islam was completed, no more addition to the QURAN or HADITH will ever happen which are the basis of Islam

I did not confuse your post, I just said what you were trying to say in more precise words, so no one get confused. It is exactly what you are saying now.

 

[KingMamba]

no. from bangalore ( india ) actually, but i don't want to disclose my connection to libya here so soon. please allow

the actual citizens of libyan jamahiriya are presently fighting a three year old war against the al-gay-da/talibunny criminals installed on libya by nato ( and puppets ) after october 2011. many more libyans are refugees in tunisia, egypt and russia. all of them want the libyan jamahiriya back

Actually I just read your info so I get it and I am pleasantly surprised that you hold a high opinion of Gaddafi I felt I was one of the few, I still remember the day he was overthrown how disgusted I was and yeah I knew Libya would be a cesspool since which has proven true.

 

[OrionHunter]

We need to distinguish between fundamentalists and revivalists, who choose to take the practice of their religion most devoutly, and fanatics or extremists, who use this devotion for political ends and power.

Muslims were once powerful but their power has been lost in modern times because Islam has been abandoned by many Muslims, who have reverted to the condition that preceded God's revelation to the Prophet (PBUH). But if Muslims now return to the original Islam, they can preserve and even restore their power.

 

[jamahir]

u are Muslim?

yes.

Actually I just read your info so I get it and I am pleasantly surprised that you hold a high opinion of Gaddafi I felt I was one of the few, I still remember the day he was overthrown how disgusted I was and yeah I knew Libya would be a cesspool since which has proven true.

thank you

it seems that the world had forgotten about muammar gaddafi and libya in the 90's. but the murders by nato of maybe 200,000 libyans in 2011 has again brought back libya into publicity again. a sad way but that's how it is

you may know that the venezuelan revolutionary, carlos ( the jackal, as the west calls him ), was a great friend of muammar, and so was hugo chavez of venezuela. in fact, presently, the venezuela government is converting venezuela society into self-governing "comunas" ( communes ), which is essentially an idea from the green book by muammar, where it is called "basic people's congress".

ah, those glory days of revolutionary 80's. i should have been there

actually, if there could have been a "president of the world", it would have been muammar gaddafi, one of the wisest men in history, who had great comrades like nasser, hafiz al assad, carlos, fidel castro, vladimir putin, hugo chavez etc. you may know about muammar's speech to the uno general assembly in september 2009. the best speech ever in the uno. it is there on youtube and i can't post a direct link as i am new.

We need to distinguish between fundamentalists and revivalists, who choose to take the practice of their religion most devoutly, and fanatics or extremists, who use this devotion for political ends and power.

Muslims were once powerful but their power has been lost in modern times because Islam has been abandoned by many Muslims, who have reverted to the condition that preceded God's revelation to the Prophet (PBUH). But if Muslims now return to the original Islam, they can preserve and even restore their power.

wise words, sir.

 

[Bouncer]

I think the current violence we see in Muslim countries is not due to religion, its because of our weaknesses in education, economy, science etc. Combine this with the fact that in recent past most Muslim countries have seen rapid increase in population. So you have large numbers of young, possibly unemployed, illiterate people who are not exposed to modern world, culture of science and discovery.

And very few Muslim countries have proper functioning democracies. Result is that crazy leaders make crazy choices (Saddam, Qaddafi, Saudi kings, Emirs, Zia ul Haq, Musharaf etc) without the involvement of masses.

Finally I don't think Islam is going anywhere for at least one more century. People in west are moving away from religion. Many people in Muslim countries are also less and less interested in religion now, though not open about it. But IMO, religion will take at least few more centuries to be completely forgotten or even marginalized.

 

[jamahir]

I think the current violence we see in Muslim countries is not due to religion, its because of our weaknesses in education, economy, science etc. Combine this with the fact that in recent past most Muslim countries have seen rapid increase in population. So you have large numbers of young, possibly unemployed, illiterate people who are not exposed to modern world, culture of science and discovery.

the tablighi jamaatis in india are all college-gone "professional" from the it-bt-services industry. so are supporters of narendra modi. that is what the modern college system does to people. brain washing with the detergents called "college degree marks" and "jobs". there is no real education to be had this way. look at the comedy of some burqa in a bangalore college ( india ) who doesn't show her face in week-day class for history and physics and computing, and says "she is free", and then on sunday goes to a demonstration by 100 other face-less shape-less burqas, holding banners which say "hijab is my choice, not compulsion", and threatening other ladies who are wearing tight-fitting jeans and t-shirts. those burqas who are ashamed to show their god-given feminine shape should there be given the "choice" of sex-change operation. only solution.

Result is that crazy leaders make crazy choices (Saddam, Qaddafi, Saudi kings, Emirs, Zia ul Haq, Musharaf etc)

saddam and qaddafi in the same sentence as saudi kings and zia ul haq??

without the involvement of masses.

no. socialist societies are always created to uphold rights of masses, individual by individual. whereas in capitalism, they don't care whether you live or die. they give you the rules and you better follow them

 

[Bouncer]

the tablighi jamaatis in india are all college-gone "professional" from the it-bt-services industry. so are supporters of narendra modi. that is what the modern college system does to people. brain washing with the detergents called "college degree marks" and "jobs". there is no real education to be had this way.

Dear, I don't know about India. In Pakistan normally the "brains" behind fundamentalist organizations are reasonably educated (like that lal masjid cleric, I forgot his name). But the bulk of foot soldiers are uneducated (I count madressa educated as uneducated). These people have no other job prospects other than being professional protestors or agitators. These uneducated/under-educated folks become the fodder for the brainwashing schemes.

saddam and qaddafi in the same sentence as saudi kings and zia ul haq??

Yes. All of these are/were unelected dictators/monarchs. People of these countries had no say. This was my context when I mentioned them in same sentence. They had difference in high level policies, but at the end they brought (or are bringing) disaster to their countries and beyond.

no. socialist societies are always created to uphold rights of masses, individual by individual. whereas in capitalism, they don't care whether you live or die. they give you the rules and you better follow them

I don't have enough knowledge to debate socialism vs capitalism. But what I do know is that if you look around you'll see that socialism failed long time ago. Most successful systems are hybrids like Scandinavian countries.

 

[mehboobkz]

We need to distinguish between fundamentalists and revivalists, who choose to take the practice of their religion most devoutly, and fanatics or extremists, who use this devotion for political ends and power.

Muslims were once powerful but their power has been lost in modern times because Islam has been abandoned by many Muslims, who have reverted to the condition that preceded God's revelation to the Prophet (PBUH). But if Muslims now return to the original Islam, they can preserve and even restore their power.

What is "original Islam"

Islam is Islam!
Islam has no boundries!
Islam =Quran = Hadeeth (Bokhari/Muslim) = Sunah (Ibn Ishaq) = Sharia...

Can you make me understand some that I am missing?

 

[jamahir]

Most successful systems are hybrids like Scandinavian countries.

actually not.

look at the collapse of the iceland banking system. what about the collapse of nokia company and its effect on sweden?? what about the computer industry which will get majorly affected by the collapse of the usa computer industry?? what about the affects of germany economic changes affecting the northern european nations?? and these nations are also shipping nations. what will those ships transport in this changing economic world??

if you look around you'll see that socialism failed long time ago.

where exactly did socialism fail long ago?? socialism is on the rise again. especially in the western world.

even in usa. google for "occupy movement" >> click on images tab. the occupy protestors want "direct democracy" and socialistic changes in usa. this movement has also been going on in britain, canada, australia.

the socialists of greece and italy are making comeback, doing "direct action". the citizens there support them because they suffer job losses, house takeovers by banks, food shortages etc... all because of capitalism.

capitalist systems are momentary. socialism is eternal.

All of these are/were unelected dictators. People of these countries had no say.

that is the nature of revolutions. always carried out by a small group but who see a brighter future for the majority

isn't the usa system a dictatorship?? you either vote for demo-cracks or republi-tards. if you choose to vote for the cpusa ( communist party of usa ), you may be taken away to guantanamo bay. so??

 

[Bouncer]

actually not.
look at the collapse of the iceland banking system. what about the collapse of nokia company and its effect on sweden?? what about the computer industry which will get majorly affected by the collapse of the usa computer industry?? what about the affects of germany economic changes affecting the northern european nations?? and these nations are also shipping nations. what will those ships transport in this changing economic world??

Iceland's banking system collapsed due to poor banking practices. And they recovered better than most. And sorry I can't understand what you wrote next. USA's "computer industry" is collapsing? German economy is is in top shape, in fact they are bailing out others in EU.

Scandinavian countries have mixed system. And the result is for the world to see. Complete capitalism results in Americans paying billions to health insurance companies.

where exactly did socialism fail long ago?? socialism is on the rise again. especially in the western world.
even in usa. google for "occupy movement" >> click on images tab. the occupy protestors want "direct democracy" and socialistic changes in usa. this movement has also been going on in britain, canada, australia.
the socialists of greece and italy are making comeback, doing "direct action". the citizens there support them because they suffer job losses, house takeovers by banks, food shortages etc... all because of capitalism.
capitalist systems are momentary. socialism is eternal.

Seriously you are referring to "Occupy movement"? A bunch of punk kids running around the US chanting against the "1%" without knowing what they want. They burnt and faded away as soon as they arrived.

that is the nature of revolutions. always carried out by a small group but who see a brighter future for the majority
isn't the usa system a dictatorship?? you either vote for demo-cracks or republi-tards. if you choose to vote for the cpusa ( communist party of usa ), you may be taken away to guantanamo bay. so??

But as it happens, this small group always enriches itself and leaves the rest of country to dogs. Look up these dictators wealth.

 

[SiCiSi]

I am holding a new Samsung phone in my hand. A Brand new Galaxy S5 and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in it that came from the Islamic world. The display, processor, software, everything is made in the west or far east.

Exact same thing with my car. I drive a 2014 S63 AMG and the whole islamic world doesnt make a single screw that is worthy of being used in it. Let alone something more complicated.

You people have no creativity or industrial capability other than copying others. Even the ultra rich middle east have add nothing of value to the world other than oil (which the west told them was right under their feet). Military wise, all of you are backward and depend solely on western, Russian or Chinese weaponry. Without those, you will still be fighting with swords while riding horses.

Think about that for a second and youll understand why the Islamic world is the most backward.

 

[jamahir]

Islam =Quran = Hadeeth (Bokhari/Muslim) = Sunah (Ibn Ishaq) = Sharia...

Can you make me understand some that I am missing?

what you are missing, my friend, is a big not equals sign between quran and hadees. the hadees are interpretations by various ( mostly wrong ) people many many years after the original islami revolution.

And sorry I can't understand what you wrote next. USA's "computer industry" is collapsing? German economy is is in top shape, in fact they are bailing out others in EU.

hp company ( hewlett packard ) is removing 50,000 employees all over the world. ibm is down, so is the german siemens. and so on.

Complete capitalism results in Americans paying billions to health insurance companies.

"insurance" is part of the problem. so you should be treated ( and live ) only when your "insurance" account has enough money?? and die otherwise?? be fair.

Seriously you are referring to "Occupy movement"? A bunch of punk kids running around the US chanting against the "1%" without knowing what they want.

those "bunch of punk kids" are actually thousands of idealistic people, who braved police attacks, media attacks, rapes, hunger, rain etc.

those "bunch of punk kids" were accused by western governments of being supported by the russia and china governments.

those "bunch of punk kids" have created manifesto which calls for things like "direct democracy" and free medical and educations systems. they want citizens to be happy. they did more in three years than most people in the west since 1945.

those "bunch of punk kids" have to work despite attempts of infiltration by the usa government... attempts ranging from nato-propaganda actresses like anne hathaway to cia-funded ngo types like awaaz.

They burnt and faded away as soon as they arrived.

those "bunch of punk kids" are still there.

But as it happens, this small group always enriches itself and leaves the rest of country to dogs. Look up these dictators wealth.

so what is the wealth of "dictators" like saddam, bashar, muammar, hugo and fidel??

Military wise, all of you are backward and depend solely on western, Russian or Chinese weaponry.

going back to history, what about chain-mail armor?? lighter than the western european iron uniforms. gun powder though invented in china, found military application in cannons through the muslims. so did artillery rockets, through one of my heroes, tipu sultan, tiger of mysore, arch enemy of the british empire, and perhaps the greatest of south asia's historic rulers. i leave it to you to research.

the european renaissance and industrial revolution happened mainly because of the "islami golden age". simple fact. undeniaible.

and how sure are you that no muslim will ever design a microprocessor or portable computer or operating system or internet??

and shouldn't you be more proud of the soviet designs like the elbrus microprocessor than some south korean silly cellphone??

 

[TruthSeeker]

The most compelling reasons for separating religion and state governance are: (1) the people within all existing nations are not uniform in their religious beliefs and (2) state governance works best if the solutions to problems are as rational as possible and religions are not rational. So in the interest of equality of treatment of the citizens and the most effective solutions to the problems of human communities, separation of religion and the state produces the best outcomes. Hence, Islam needs to find an acceptable language of and belief in mosque/state separation if it is to survive within the most successful human societies.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

beg to disagree.

ayatuulahs from iran and rabbit rabid mullahs from ksa do know their rihgt foot from their left in religion,

...

We have a trust problem there. I may know religion in profundity in at least one of its sciences, and may have a matching degree to show. But am I using what I know for my own showmanship or salary. It is felt that many or even most of those that you mention are.

I am talking about the conflict that arises due to change in how one views Islam, is Islam open for interpretation with modern laws? the bulk of the debate circles inside the fixed parameters of Islam and the enforcement of it on Muslim masses. The tides of change which Irfan is / was talking about is what's bringing in the conflicts. I agree that many scholars of Islam are seen arguing about the man made laws or fatwas within Islam - but then those set of rules does not leave the confines of the religion which has a predating fixed set of fundamentals that override all other discussions or arguments. The debates are on the interpretations of the set of fundamentals.

You are right, I am not a religious person and I usually do not get into any religious discussions much less about Islam of which I hardly know much and have an outsiders perspective.

What I see though is that there is considerable opposition to the changes that some states have adopted and there is a considerable push on these states to go back to their routes - which is one of the cause of conflict within the mulsim world.

The madrassah example was cited by me, because the poster was arguing that people read the Quran but are unable to interpret it correctly. Most of the extremists we see have madrassah backgrounds - and, I am surely astonished that even after spending 12 - 15 years reading the Quran, they still wrongly interpret it.

Dear illusion8, your post deserves to be replied to when I'm more mentally there. It's been a long day. I mean to come back and reply. Thanks.

The most compelling reasons for separating religion and state governance are: (1) the people within all existing nations are not uniform in their religious beliefs and (2) state governance works best if the solutions to problems are as rational as possible and religions are not rational. So in the interest of equality of treatment of the citizens and the most effective solutions to the problems of human communities, separation of religion and the state produces the best outcomes. Hence, Islam needs to find an acceptable language of and belief in mosque/state separation if it is to survive within the most successful human societies.

Since when is it religion from the State. It is Church from the State. Very different. What if the Church ain't there to begin with. What if the Church is the King.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Since when is it religion from the State. It is Church from the State. Very different. What if the Church ain't there to begin with. What if the Church is the King.

I was merely trying to use/find generic terms that are not specific to, say, the USA version of Church/State separation. This is why I used "religion" and "governance". My point being that, IMHO, the most successful concept for organizing the rules and laws of a human community is one in which none of the various religions practiced by the community members are explicitly involved in setting the rules (they may be indirectly, of course, by informing the opinions/moralities of the community members).