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Is stability without democracy possible in Pakistan?

NRO will be challenged in court: Imran

LAHORE: Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) chief Imran Khan has said the National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) was against basic human rights and would be challenged in court, a private TV channel reported on Monday. According to the channel, Khan told the media in Islamabad that incidents like May 12 and the Lal Masjid operation would also be challenged in court. He said Chief Justice of Pakistan (CJP) Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry had been reinstated through the people’s power and would stand by the people. He also warned that the nation would not accept any move to curtail the powers of the CJP. The PTI chief said the people had a one-point agenda of restoration of the judiciary, and dispelled the impression that they wanted to destabilise the government.
www.dailytimes.com.pk/monitor/staff report


Here we go, you "DEMOCRAZY"... lovers!
i guss, "JUSTICE CHOWDARY" will going to have a "TRHUNDER" time, in supreme court of pakistan, so does "DEMOCRAZY"!:agree::lol::smokin:
 
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Our people have got used to DANDA thats it.

Who holds the Danda then and if he is some righteous man then where will we find him and how would we be sure he isn't a brother of the NA members or PA members.
 
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We need to realize that leader just dont appear out of the blue and start leading naions they are born and take years of refinement to emerge. i think that one such leader the PM Gilani. We as Pakistanis all the time look for the quick fix to the problem and fail to realize the quike fix becomes in unfixable in the future. lets hope this government completes its term and there are free and fair elections.
During the mean i will pray for this government to succeed for the sake of pakistan everyone else should do the same not for the part but for the country
 
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well Prophet (peace be upon him) said that leaders are the same as of people themselves. so y r we blaming leaders. its us who are to blame. there are families who are voting for PPP since bhutto's time only bec bhutto did somehting gud for them. now these ppl dont care if bainazir killed many ppl without any reason (im only assuming). same can be assumed about nawaz league. wat do we see here is that we as individuals are self centered. we only think about ourselves and not about rest of the nation. when we are lik this then why should we expect our leaders to not be self centered??????? once we improve ourselves, our leaders will automatically improve
 
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You are absolutely right and I do agree that what you are saying is right But what do we do with a nation who's majority decision is always wrong. How can we refine this process if there are 3 parties ruling the country and all three are a menace and have no love for the country. A Question arises what we need and what we want is to moralize politics, and not to politicize morals.
Alas, Our new generation has begun to look like an echo of the past one. Holding elections is not enough and though it might be heresy to suggest it, sometimes a strong, unelected leader may prove more effective in the short term.
Pakistan can become a great country if the education system is changed Students who are exposed to dynamic teachers and curriculum in civics learn to listen to what people of different viewpoints have to say, to weigh what’s reasoned and unreasonable in the arguments they hear, and to look for common ground and pragmatic solutions. They learn to be open to compromise, and to appreciate that conflicting interests are part of our free society They come to understand that resolving conflicts is the function of democracy it is what allows our nation to move forward.

From outside perspective what I see is that there is no consensus in Pakistan politics, were everyone are just power hungry, even army sometimes. I believe the solution would be to have numerous small parties, with there ideals and ideology. Where they are forced to create a coalition goverment, and in turn the coalition government would pick the best man to run as well as to run the country.
 
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From outside perspective what I see is that there is no consensus in Pakistan politics, were everyone are just power hungry, even army sometimes. I believe the solution would be to have numerous small parties, with there ideals and ideology. Where they are forced to create a coalition goverment, and in turn the coalition government would pick the best man to run as well as to run the country.

I would completely disagree on this solution for Pakistan for a lot of disagreement are possible in the coalition setup, all the parties will look towards more power and argue leaving Pakistan in a very precarious position. What history has shown us is that in democracies the 2 party setup has worked really well. It has a better accountability system and a lot less time wasting forming power sharing agreements or deciding ministries or who is accountable for what.
 
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lol..jihad...

you have "nothing more to add", yet I see another 200 words added below that...

anyways, good post, keep it up...:tup:

lol, I was hoping nobody noticed. :whistle:
Mr. MuradK is right, our country has so much potential, we can feel it and we KNOW it, it's just not being reveiled or discovered in one way or another, it's not being used, talents are wasted because our top political brass is trying to steer the country into a direction which they think is the right direction, but the truth is, we're heading off towards slow progress, we're heading off towards something we cannot be proud of, it's a shame and I seriously wonder almost everyday how long it's going to take before our nation wakes up alltogether.
 
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I would completely disagree on this solution for Pakistan for a lot of disagreement are possible in the coalition setup, all the parties will look towards more power and argue leaving Pakistan in a very precarious position. What history has shown us is that in democracies the 2 party setup has worked really well. It has a better accountability system and a lot less time wasting forming power sharing agreements or deciding ministries or who is accountable for what.

The two or three party system is giving you opposite effect. Does it clearly represent FATA and SWAT. Does it clearly represent Bolachiestan, the answer is no. Small parties in all of Pakistan areas would create lots of antagonism (where ever there is a paradox, you are very close to answer, remember that), and that is the beauty. From all these antagonist a leader (Pm and President) has to be elected. That person is represented with all thoughts, beliefs, and backgrounds, and in so doing will run the coalition government and the country well. This would be the ideal democractic system where everyone is represented. The disagreement is only within the government and in a good democractic system they will come to a consensus. I think this is what Pakistan needs at this moment in time.

What say!!!

Agree/Disagree on my thesis!!!
 
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Pakistan will continue to suffer and lose alot due to these idiots running in politics and shouting for democracy, the truth is, democracy has not brought us any good, so why implement it? Why not let our country be ruled by a few sensible people? Why not let our country be ruled by people who truly love their country and will not destroy it indirectly by causing political turmoil or to try and increase their own image or fight with other politicians?

I will question you once again that where are these good people you so want to rule the country and if they are so sensible and wise why has their wisdom not convinced Pakistanis to vote for them or even give them any recognition, in short who are these people?

Why do we still have idiots in our country who are so easy to manipulate and will listen to anyone who promises them heaven but reality turns out otherwise.
Why do our people have to protest all the time while they know that Pakistan is still poor and in debt, why don't they accept that now isn't the time to argue but it's the time to work, flex those muscles and bring our country into the spotlights.

Well alot of it is because they have never really learnt to vote or understand the power of the vote before another retiring general comes up and bows down to America allows our borders to be attacked goes and attacks civillians kidnapping many along the way.

Why all this **** crap on the streets, all these riots, protests, the destruction of public property, why all the negative imagery for outsiders and especially westerners to see.
And you people wonder why some call our nation a failed state? It's due to the idiots running the show in Pakistan, and to the even bigger idiots who choose or vote for them.

Because every nation has gone through this phase every nation has had its riots its rallies because democracies grow stronger throught them not through dictators. Voters shouldn't be called idiots just because they vote for who they choose.

I can't do anything except for praying to God and hoping that someday, we will go into the right direction, because honestly, due to all these issues and stupid politicians running around and protesting every other day, i'm so ashamed of my country.

Alot of people pray Jihad but I am afraid that you and I have to also take action to save Pakistan and not just prayer and never ever be ashamed of your country because it is your identity and only you can change it.
 
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The two or three party system is giving you opposite effect. Does it clearly represent FATA and SWAT. Does it clearly represent Bolachiestan, the answer is no. Small parties in all of Pakistan areas would create lots of antagonism (where ever there is a paradox, you are very close to answer, remember that), and that is the beauty. From all these antagonist a leader (Pm and President) has to be elected. That person is represented with all thoughts, beliefs, and backgrounds, and in so doing will run the coalition government and the country well. This would be the ideal democractic system where everyone is represented. The disagreement is only within the government and in a good democractic system they will come to a consensus. I think this is what Pakistan needs at this moment in time.

What say!!!

Agree/Disagree on my thesis!!!

A lot of the representatives of their party would want to serve well for their constituency so as to not lose a seat to their rivals and the competition will cause progress for Pakistan, with our rate of illeteracy if the PPP was voted for once and they failed to deliver then people will turn PML(N) forcing the PPP to do well so that they can win power again. Your setup can work for a very literate country that can fully comprehend manifestos and party views because in that position people can question the Parliament easily and comprehend who they should vote for. I agree that your thesis would work in a country where the literacy rate is atleast above 50%.
 
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Nooo!!! :frown::cry:

Bane Blade said:
I will question you once again that where are these good people you so want to rule the country and if they are so sensible and wise why has their wisdom not convinced Pakistanis to vote for them or even give them any recognition, in short who are these people?

You can question me all you like, but the fact of the matter is, it's people like you who are constantly questioning themselves or the way things go in Pakistan, even though you don't live in Pakistan, it's people like you who talk as if they KNOW what they're talking about and foresee a great future for Pakistan, however, yet they vote for the likes of Zardari, yet they get promised heaven on earth, and yet they get caught with their chaddis down because our country is more seen as a laughing stock then as a headstrong and respectable nation it was under Musharraf's rule, even though not perfect, it was more then that we could ever dream of.
These "people" often don't have the right cards and are undershadowed by power hungry politicians who have money and who also have the political contacts, they'll do anything to gain power or populairy.
I think Pakistan can produce a much better breed of leaders, however, we must get ridd of the current ones first.
These "people" are often people with a background where you can only look up against instead of looking down against, these people are Pakistani patriots.

Bane Blade said:
Well alot of it is because they have never really learnt to vote or understand the power of the vote before another retiring general comes up and bows down to America allows our borders to be attacked goes and attacks civillians kidnapping many along the way.

60+ years and our people actually still haven't learnt how to vote?
You can partially blame the people, but moreover, who could they vote for? For corrupt, power hungry kuttes? There's not much choice, hence why I say we need someone who seizes control, takes matter in it's own hands, someone who you look at and say, "He's the man for the job, period".
Democracy hasn't worked, and will not work in the near future.
People like you don't mind if our country goes through years of political instability, turmoil, loses precious economic growth where our people could benefit from, only to try and implement democracy for crying out loud, if you clearly see that it doesn't work, then get ridd of it untill Pakistan's halaat improves.
Regarding your comment about general's giving in to American demands, i'm sure you pointed out to the likes of Musharraf for instance.
Now, look, you can criticize him all you want, but the very simple fact is, Pakistan has transformed from 98 to 2007 to a much economically stronger and proud country, yes Musharraf had given in to American demands, but while doing so, he thought of his own people, he wanted to make the right decisions, and back then, nobody knows what would've happened if he said NO to the Americans, because either way or another, the U.S. was furious and would get what it wanted one way or another, they'd force us by military.
Musharraf did well by co-operating with them in such a manner where our countries image wouldn't be disputed or portrayed as a helping dog, but more over as an ally in the war on terror.
When Musharraf said "yes" to the U.S., we also had unmasked the cancer that has been harboring and living in Pakistan for decades, the same cancer which is killing innocent Pakistani's and foreigners.
Don't try and criticize ex-generals for that matter, because these generals have a much better history record, they are true patriots, they do think in the countries interests, and more over, they are not corrupt, they put Pakistan first, it's instinct, it's nationalistic pride, it's logical because they served in the Army, and their main goal was to defend Pakistan's interests, and they'll do so aswell in the political agenda.


Bane Blade said:
Because every nation has gone through this phase every nation has had its riots its rallies because democracies grow stronger throught them not through dictators. Voters shouldn't be called idiots just because they vote for who they choos

Don't give me your democracit bullsh!t to cover up for all the losses Pakistan had to suffer because we went and still are according to you, going through this "phase".
The fact is, democracy needs time, like Musharraf once told western leaders, the west had hundreds and hundreds of years to implement democracy among it's people, Pakistan is a young nation, however, I see riots or rallies almost DAILY, how can we actually GROW when there is no discipline, when people think they can go out in the streets and do whatever they like or please? Where is the sense of discipline or security in our country?

Voters are idiots if they know that the person they're voting for has a very dubious record and clearly doesn't look like he/she is going to fullfill the expectations.
Ofcourse, people like you will say: "Well, give the elected leaders time, it's unfair, blablabla".
Fact of the matter is, there is no time, all this bullsh!t of giving politicians time to settle will only mean our country goes backwards, it's been proven countless of times before, no matter how much chances or time we give these so called leaders, they prove to be unworthy and not able to lead Pakistan.
Our nation is not an experiment or testing area for leaders to take control over and exercise power, our nation INSTEAD needs a great boost of power, charisma and confidence, and I belief only leaders with the right background, not corrupt, and true patriots can deliver these essential aspects.

Bane Blade said:
Alot of people pray Jihad but I am afraid that you and I have to also take action to save Pakistan and not just prayer and never ever be ashamed of your country because it is your identity and only you can change it

What kind of action will you take? Book a ticket from Scotland to Pakistan and join the mob on the streets? What valuable input will you have for Pakistan? You'll most likely go out in the streets and protest because the milk delivered to you in the morning was sour for that matter, what value will you have? Tell me, you'll most likely come up with a nonsense, good looking and sounding fairytale about democracy or a person fightning for democracy lol.

My point is clear, i'm thinking in Pakistan's interests, i'm thinking of my kind in Pakistan, I want the best for them, I don't think the people in Pakistan, especially the ones living in poverty (a large scale of people) would care about voting, as long as the promises are delivered and that they're being helped and moved forwards by a leader who makes sure their life is more appealing, and thepoverty rates being decreased (under Musharraf's rule).
I am not against democracy, but why are you so keen on it? You call our ex-generals cowards or America's pets for that matter, but you yourself are fightning just like the Americans, or actually for the Americans for democracy, you sound exactly like them.

Democracy will come once our nation matures, but clearly, you should see that now is not the time for experiments or bullsh!t talk when our countries future is at stake.
 
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You can question me all you like, but the fact of the matter is, it's people like you who are constantly questioning themselves or the way things go in Pakistan, even though you don't live in Pakistan, it's people like you who talk as if they KNOW what they're talking about and foresee a great future for Pakistan, however, yet they vote for the likes of Zardari, yet they get promised heaven on earth, and yet they get caught with their chaddis down because our country is more seen as a laughing stock then as a headstrong and respectable nation it was under Musharraf's rule, even though not perfect, it was more then that we could ever dream of.
These "people" often don't have the right cards and are undershadowed by power hungry politicians who have money and who also have the political contacts, they'll do anything to gain power or populairy.
I think Pakistan can produce a much better breed of leaders, however, we must get ridd of the current ones first.
These "people" are often people with a background where you can only look up against instead of looking down against, these people are Pakistani patriots.

Let us not start on the wrong footing with each other what I would first like to mention Jihad is the fact that at no point do I feel you are disloyal to Pakistan and I hope you have no such feelings about my views to Pakistan. Another thing I wish to mention is that you and I both have the same destination in mind and that is to see a prosperous Pakistan though the way to this acheivement is different. Now then I am well aware of the situation in Pakistan the onground scenario and the way of life and even you are not present in our country. People in these elections voted in sympathy for the Pakistan Peoples Party and gave them a mandate to serve our country now however much you disagree they have the right to rule over us for they were chosen to rule over our country. The Patriots you so seem to mention of are people who I am sorry but never stood in the election never had their message heard or their ways followed in any constituency of our country even if they start running for representation today they can easily show face in the next elections.

60+ years and our people actually still haven't learnt how to vote?
You can partially blame the people, but moreover, who could they vote for? For corrupt, power hungry kuttes? There's not much choice, hence why I say we need someone who seizes control, takes matter in it's own hands, someone who you look at and say, "He's the man for the job, period".
Democracy hasn't worked, and will not work in the near future.
People like you don't mind if our country goes through years of political instability, turmoil, loses precious economic growth where our people could benefit from, only to try and implement democracy for crying out loud, if you clearly see that it doesn't work, then get ridd of it untill Pakistan's halaat improves.

Let us start with the fact that more than half of those years were served under leaders you praise alot like General's Ayub to Musharraf and everything in between and within those years everytim we started to have a true face of democracy showing up. When you say that one leader who is the man for the job comes and saves our country I fear the consequences after this representatives death for when he leaves we will return back to square one whilst in democracy however painfully or slowly one day people will learn and sort themselves for ever and ever. Democracy will only work with time and with support of our countries citizens not just politicians, to improve Pakistan's halaat we need to improve the halaat of the people and no one man can trully understand or solve the halaat of all the people.


Regarding your comment about general's giving in to American demands, i'm sure you pointed out to the likes of Musharraf for instance.
Now, look, you can criticize him all you want, but the very simple fact is, Pakistan has transformed from 98 to 2007 to a much economically stronger and proud country, yes Musharraf had given in to American demands, but while doing so, he thought of his own people, he wanted to make the right decisions, and back then, nobody knows what would've happened if he said NO to the Americans, because either way or another, the U.S. was furious and would get what it wanted one way or another, they'd force us by military.
Musharraf did well by co-operating with them in such a manner where our countries image wouldn't be disputed or portrayed as a helping dog, but more over as an ally in the war on terror.
When Musharraf said "yes" to the U.S., we also had unmasked the cancer that has been harboring and living in Pakistan for decades, the same cancer which is killing innocent Pakistani's and foreigners.
Don't try and criticize ex-generals for that matter, because these generals have a much better history record, they are true patriots, they do think in the countries interests, and more over, they are not corrupt, they put Pakistan first, it's instinct, it's nationalistic pride, it's logical because they served in the Army, and their main goal was to defend Pakistan's interests, and they'll do so aswell in the political agenda.

Our image I am afraid was presented as a dog of the US after their announcement of the war on terror, secondly I pointed to General Zia to begin with but I will get to him later. Learn something for now alot of the developement that took place during Musharrafs era was sanctioned or started from the Nawaz days economic decision are reflected over 5-7 years not the next day General Musharrafs views are coming through nowadays. Ex-Generals could have done better by leaving the process as it is rather than move in to take over.


Don't give me your democracit bullsh!t to cover up for all the losses Pakistan had to suffer because we went and still are according to you, going through this "phase".
The fact is, democracy needs time, like Musharraf once told western leaders, the west had hundreds and hundreds of years to implement democracy among it's people, Pakistan is a young nation, however, I see riots or rallies almost DAILY, how can we actually GROW when there is no discipline, when people think they can go out in the streets and do whatever they like or please? Where is the sense of discipline or security in our country?

Yes and we have wasted 60 lets not waste any more discipline starts from the top to bottom for I see no discipline when Gen. Musharraf was in power.

Voters are idiots if they know that the person they're voting for has a very dubious record and clearly doesn't look like he/she is going to fullfill the expectations.
Ofcourse, people like you will say: "Well, give the elected leaders time, it's unfair, blablabla".
Fact of the matter is, there is no time, all this bullsh!t of giving politicians time to settle will only mean our country goes backwards, it's been proven countless of times before, no matter how much chances or time we give these so called leaders, they prove to be unworthy and not able to lead Pakistan.
Our nation is not an experiment or testing area for leaders to take control over and exercise power, our nation INSTEAD needs a great boost of power, charisma and confidence, and I belief only leaders with the right background, not corrupt, and true patriots can deliver these essential aspects.

Voters are new stock they need time and remember they are the same Pakistanis you wish to serve so please do not refer to them as idiots please. They need time to develope trust on someone it is not an overnight thing. Our voters are fresh they need time we have never given democracy enough time to progress or the people to understand slowly and steadily things will get better. Let us hope your true patriots come to power but only with the wishes of the countries voter not the power of the gun.

What kind of action will you take? Book a ticket from Scotland to Pakistan and join the mob on the streets? What valuable input will you have for Pakistan? You'll most likely go out in the streets and protest because the milk delivered to you in the morning was sour for that matter, what value will you have? Tell me, you'll most likely come up with a nonsense, good looking and sounding fairytale about democracy or a person fightning for democracy lol.

No democracy isn't pretty it is hard it is demanding it needs time and struggle it is no fairytail like yours of a good patriot walking in taking power sorting everything and bowing out. I will have a value for my decision will count and one day so will all my fellow Pakistanis vote will count.

My point is clear, i'm thinking in Pakistan's interests, i'm thinking of my kind in Pakistan, I want the best for them, I don't think the people in Pakistan, especially the ones living in poverty (a large scale of people) would care about voting, as long as the promises are delivered and that they're being helped and moved forwards by a leader who makes sure their life is more appealing, and thepoverty rates being decreased (under Musharraf's rule).
I am not against democracy, but why are you so keen on it? You call our ex-generals cowards or America's pets for that matter, but you yourself are fightning just like the Americans, or actually for the Americans for democracy, you sound exactly like them.

Democracy isn't an American thing the Generals that led our nation stamped out our voice and that is why Pakistan was so quiet on what happened in Palestine. None of us when we were kids wanted to study but slowly today I realise that it was extremely important it has freed my mind and my body giving me the right to think and the poor will appreciate their rights one day.

Democracy will come once our nation matures, but clearly, you should see that now is not the time for experiments or bullsh!t talk when our countries future is at stake.

I think we have wasted 60 years time to educate Pakistanis and demand our rights we need to progress and we need to do it in a consistent way.
 
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yar we as a nation can't handle democracy, its more off a dhamchocari...
But what do we do with a nation who's majority decision is always wrong. How can we refine this process if there are 3 parties ruling the country and all three are a menace and have no love for the country. A Question arises what we need and what we want is to moralize politics, and not to politicize morals.
Alas, Our new generation has begun to look like an echo of the past one. Holding elections is not enough and though it might be heresy to suggest it, sometimes a strong, unelected leader may prove more effective in the short term.
Although the motivation behind this particular thought process is understandable, I've always found it to be a tad bit immature. I don't mean this as a personal insult to you, but rather as a judgment upon a philosophy that is commonly espoused by many people in South Asia (albeit it has recently gained more support in Pakistan) especially among your generation.

That one phrase however caught my eye, because it is truly the crux of the entire situation. If you look closely, successful nation building for any society essentially comes down to managing a favorable ratio for good decisions: bad decisions (taking into consideration their magnitude and impact) in the backdrop of the uncontrolled ratio of good luck: bad luck. Granted I'm simplifying the issue... but the essence of that formula really does apply and I suggest you test it upon a various models around the world to determine its veracity.

Jingoism, pride, malice etc. aside (which are the default undercurrents of any conversation pertaining to Pakistan/India) Pakistan yet again finds itself in a very, very bad position which has an impact not only upon Pakistanis but also the entire world, in particular inhabitants of the region (almost 1/4th of humanity). It is also evident that the problems Pakistan faces are unique, and certainly not a part of some blanket phenomenon. My point is that virtually every problem that afflicts Pakistan today can be traced back to a bad decision either in recent history, or the past and if there is to be a better future and success this ratio has to change in the favor of good decision making.

The reason I disagree with your philosophy and think it's misdirected is because it somehow makes the faulty assumption that better decisions are made under military/ autocratic leadership. The history of Pakistan itself shows that this isn't true. Military dictators can produce some short term results no doubt, but in the long run, the net losses incurred upon the state and the society at large far outweigh the immediate benefits.

This vision of a "benevolent autocrat" who brings order to chaos, punishes the corrupt wrong doers in all his righteousness, reasserts national pride and helps create a new generation of highly smart "made for democracy" generation prior to gracefully handing back the reigns of power is categorically phantasmagoric. This futile fantasy has been indulged into countless times by various civilizations through human history particularly that of the Greco-Roman derivatives who have greatly influenced the concepts of nationhood, national pride and national identity; and I really can't think of too many instances where it turned out for the better.

People in Pakistan often refer to China as a source of inspiration on account of the recent success. What is never accounted for however is the sheer time it has taken the Chinese civilization to refine their social philosophy (not just the communism) and the devastating levels of morbidity and mortality involved in becoming proficient with said social outlook on unitary leadership. I do not think anyone in this day and age would be willing to pay such a heavy price just to acquire a functional autocratic system.

Nation building for the most part is an arduous long term project which involves innumerable hardships, embarrassment and despair; but these have to be taken in stride while working toward a greater goal which of course takes a long time. Sadly, Pakistan has never stayed this course long enough to actually build a momentum, and what many people fail to realize is that every time there's a military intervention (which ultimately fails) the country is almost always brought back to square 1.
 
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