Is PTI losing support in Punjab and karachi?

[Pakistanisage]

Rural punjabis worship pak army, thats unique.....in our areas it is a job like police and FC, an apportunity to improve your economic status.

Punjabis love Pak Army because they love Pakistan. PUNJAB is the HEART of Pakistan.

 

[Asian.Century]

PTI & IK is becoming irrelevant in Punjab & Karachi, day by day for the next Pakistan as like Ataturk secular Turkish future.

Imran Khan the epitome of failure and disgust has tried to undermine Armed Forces. IK was the special one who wanted special meeting of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and ex-COAS Kayani, and once discussions in private, this bastard announces to the whole world, to support his primitive thinking and agenda.

Imran khan cannot lead this nation ever, he is a primitive Pakistani tribal leader, not a Pakistani national leader. Imran Khan who wants to be the supreme commander of the Pakistan Armed Forces has nothing good to say about its own security forces. He goes to India and talks big abt the terrorists in tribals, undermines all the great success of our military. He is a confused Jackal, thoroughly exposed by TTP themselves.

Imran KHan idiocy to the extent that he questions and keeps undermining the capability and the strength of the armed forces of Pakistan who has sacrificed so much for this Muslim nation and one who he wants to lead one day. The jack *** doesn't know how sole nuclear power Pakistan is fighting to protect and defend itself from nearly 50+ countries around its like wolves.

Imran Khan is destroying his political career in Pakistan, he should go and get Amir ul Momineen title from Mullah Fazullah.

Totally Hate Nawaz Group But From past few years Lanati Imran Khan is always trying to degrade Pak army for his personal vendetta. No matter what happens at least people Should support their men who are sacrificing every thing for the sake of their mother land, not for money or some thing just for their motherland. Nothing is Bigger than Pakistan Not Even this lunatic retard, emotionally mad Imran khan who has mainstreamed hatred, mindlessness and xenophobia.

Imran Khan with his twisted logic should be banned from main stream Pakistan Media and television. Nobody should pay too much attention to this attention seeker, irrelevant man. IK should not been given Pakistani air time too much.

Taliban Khan is the biggest mir jaffar and mir sadiq even far more than our Taliban group!! In short he is a traitor !!!

 

[Porus]

WAR never was a civillian matter, it allways a professinal militry mattar!
sory on that?have nice day sir!

You're a retired military man, right? Is it true that Clausewitz is taught in Pakistan military Schools?

 

[Porus]

Damn!! And the world was so convinced that it was your mother tongue, the way you engage so articulately in the language, making it impossible for others to understand. Are you sure it's not??





Try as you may, you are nothing like a Lalookheti, you are, maybe, more like a cheap, high on narcotics, Liyariite.....and that too on your better days.





This is precisely the reason that make you appear not too bright. Comparing Zia's non-nuclear, middle of Afghan war tenure to the nuclear Pakistan of 1999! Your IQ & your level of comprehension is evident from the fact that you are defending yourself with Zia's assessment of Indian response which proved to be incorrect in the Nuclear era. Neither India crossed the LOC, nor did they cross the border despite being unable to dislodge the fighters from key positions.....heck, even today we hold Point 5353 along with a couple of other positions in Kargil!!





That's why Pakistan went Nuclear and that is why "No first use" policy is never a part of Pakistani doctrine. This doctrine is a deterrence. There is a threshold that India would never cross and if it does then it will face the consequences. And the only way India could cut off the supply lines would be to cross the LoC, they never dared to cross the LoC and hence the supply lines could never be cut off.Their Jets crossed the LoC a couple of times and were escorted out immediately. They never tried to engage the PAF either.

India could not cross the LoC, neither could they cross the IB. Not just that, it was India that created a Nuclear hysteria and established massive diplomatic pressure on Pakistan. But Militarily, India could not achieve its purpose and had we all been on the same page, Siachin would have been solved and most probably, so would have been Kashmir.

I am appalled to see such a childish approach to such a sensitive issue, the whole argument is based on just one silly premise. Assuming that the presence of nuclear weapons and no to "no first use" policy will prevent India from crossing the LoC or international border is foolish. If Pakistan can infiltrate its forces across the LoC then nothing can prevent India from doing the same thing, especially when Pakistan is the one that has initiated the infiltration. Therefore, that little conversation between Zia and DGMO is still as valid as it was in the 80s. No country will ever use its nuclear weapon unless its army is on the brink of total collapse, and that point never came during the Kargil war.

I am sure that Indians would have turned that small conflict into a full-fledged war if they had remained unsuccessful in recapturing most of the ridges, too much national honour and prestige was at stake. The tiger hill and and a couple of more hills are still under Pakistan’s control, they tried but failed to recapture them, but the bulk of the area was retaken by them.

It was not the fear of nuclear war that stopped them from escalating the war, but mainly because that never felt forced to do so. Firstly, they were already recapturing the peaks one by one and secondly they could lose the support of the international community if they had opened another front somewhere else.

They sent their MiGs to target the positions of Pakistani forces but were forced to change their plan when two of their fighters and one Helicopter were shot down with SAMs. They immediately changed their tactic and came again with their GPS-assisted high altitude and laser-guided bombing by Migs and Jaguars with effective results. PAF was in no position to provide assistance to our troops.

Their navy was also getting active and threatened to cut off our sea trade and our navy was not prepared for this adventure as the kamando didn’t bother to inform them about the operation.

The Kargil plan was badly conceived and poorly executed and created serious doubts about the ability of Musharraf who almost brought two nuclear nations to the brink of an all-out war. The whole operation was kept secret even from their own operational commanders, only after occupying the peaks they were informed about the operation and asked to give it a reason, where in this world does it happen?

War is not only fought in the battlefield, but it is also fought on the diplomatic and economic level. Pakistan lost the Kargil war on all three levels. The allied forces could not militarily defeat the Germans in the first world war, but the famine like situation forced Germany to surrender.

It was foolish to assume that one thousand men of NLI, armed with hand held weapons could hold their position long enough that would have forced the Indians to abandon Siachen.

It doesn’t make any sense to assume that India was in no position to recapture the peaks, the victory was almost achieved and then out of the blue Nawaz Sharif goes to Washington and that too on the 4th of july to meet Clinton knowing that Clinton has set one condition for the meeting, come only if you are ready for withdraw. He must be aware of the ground situation and went to meet him so he could save what was left to save.

 

[Porus]

@Mav3rick

You should not feel obliged to fight the case of a dumb kamando just because he belongs to your tribe, I know it is the only reason otherwise you MQM goons have no respect for the army as an institution. Instead of posting your further usual nonsense take some time and read this article written by a retired air commodore of PAF. I just posting a part of this article, if you want to read it in its entirety clink on the following link.
Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force


Aftermath

It has emerged that the principal protagonists of the Kargil adventure were General Pervez Musharraf: Chief of Army Staff, Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmed: Commander 10 Corps and, Maj Gen Javed Hasan: Commander Force Command Northern Areas. The trio, in previous ranks and appointments, had been associated with planning during paper exercises on how to wrest control of lost territory in Siachen. The plans were not acceptable to the then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to whom the options had been put up for review more than once. She was well-versed in international affairs and, all too intelligent to be taken in by the chicanery. It fell to the wisdom of her successor, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to approve the Army trio’s self-serving presentation.

In an effort to keep the plan secret, which was thought to be the key to its successful initiation, the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its own operational commanders nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed-loop thought process which engendered a string of oversights and failures:

• Failure to grasp the wider military and diplomatic ramifications of a limited tactical operation that had the potential of creating major strategic effects.

• Failure to correctly visualise the response of a powerful enemy to what was, in effect, a major blow in a disputed sector.

• Failure to spell out the specific aim to field commanders, who acted on their own to needlessly capture territory and expand the scope of the operation to unmanageable levels.

• Failure to appreciate the inability of the Army officers to evaluate the capabilities and limitations of an Air Force.

• Failure to coordinate contingency plans at the tri-services level.

The flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable and, could not have escaped even a layman’s attention during a cursory examination. The question arises as to why all the planners got blinded to the obvious? Could it be that some of the sub-ordinates had the sight but not the nerve in the face of a powerful superior? In hierarchical organisations, there is precious little room for dissent, but in autocratic ones like the military, it takes more than a spine to disagree, for there are very few commanders who are large enough to allow such liberties. It is out of fear of annoying the superior – which also carries with it manifold penalties and loss of promotion and perks – that the majority decide to go along with the wind.

In a country where democratic traditions have never been deep-rooted, it is no big exposé to point out that the military is steeped in an authoritarian, rather than a consensual approach. To my mind, there is an urgent need to inculcate a more liberal culture that accommodates different points of view – a more lateral approach, so to speak. Disagreement during planning should be systemically tolerated and, not taken as a personal affront. Unfortunately, many in higher ranks seem to think that rank alone confers wisdom and, anyone displaying signs of intelligence at an earlier stage is, somehow, an alien in their ‘star-spangled’ universe.

Kargil, I suspect, like the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course. Such an organisational milieu, based on honest appraisal and fearless appeal, would be conducive to sound and sensible planning. It would also go a long way in precluding Kargil-like disasters.

Tailpiece

Come change-over time of the Chief of Air Staff in 2001, President Musharraf struck at PAF’s top leadership in what can only be described as implacable action: he passed over all five Air Marshals and appointed the sixth-in-line who was practically an Air Vice Marshal till a few weeks before. While disregarding of seniority in the appointment of service chiefs has historically been endemic in the country, the practice has been seen as breeding nepotism and partiality, besides leaving a trail of conjecture and gossip in the ranks. Given Air Chief Marshal Mehdi’s rather straight-faced and forthright dealings with General Musharraf, particularly during Kargil conflict, there is good reason to believe that the latter decided to appoint a not-very-senior Air Chief whom he could order around like one of his Corps Commanders. (As it turned out, Air Chief Marshal Mus’haf was as solid as his predecessor and gave no quarter when it came to PAF’s interests.) Whatever the reason of bypassing seniority, it was unfortunate that PAF’s precious corporate experience was thrown out so crassly and several careers destroyed. Lives and honour lost in Kargil is another matter.

 

[batmannow]

You're a retired military man, right? Is it true that Clausewitz is taught in Pakistan military Schools?

plz, just be specific to the topic!ok
im really trying to be as nice as much as i can with you, i dont know why?

@Mav3rick

You should not feel obliged to fight the case of a dumb kamando just because he belongs to your tribe, I know it is the only reason otherwise you MQM goons have no respect for the army as an institution. Instead of posting your further usual nonsense take some time and read this article written by a retired air commodore of PAF. I just posting a part of this article, if you want to read it in its entirety clink on the following link.
Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force


Aftermath

It has emerged that the principal protagonists of the Kargil adventure were General Pervez Musharraf: Chief of Army Staff, Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmed: Commander 10 Corps and, Maj Gen Javed Hasan: Commander Force Command Northern Areas. The trio, in previous ranks and appointments, had been associated with planning during paper exercises on how to wrest control of lost territory in Siachen. The plans were not acceptable to the then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to whom the options had been put up for review more than once. She was well-versed in international affairs and, all too intelligent to be taken in by the chicanery. It fell to the wisdom of her successor, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to approve the Army trio’s self-serving presentation.

In an effort to keep the plan secret, which was thought to be the key to its successful initiation, the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its own operational commanders nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed-loop thought process which engendered a string of oversights and failures:

• Failure to grasp the wider military and diplomatic ramifications of a limited tactical operation that had the potential of creating major strategic effects.

• Failure to correctly visualise the response of a powerful enemy to what was, in effect, a major blow in a disputed sector.

• Failure to spell out the specific aim to field commanders, who acted on their own to needlessly capture territory and expand the scope of the operation to unmanageable levels.

• Failure to appreciate the inability of the Army officers to evaluate the capabilities and limitations of an Air Force.

• Failure to coordinate contingency plans at the tri-services level.

The flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable and, could not have escaped even a layman’s attention during a cursory examination. The question arises as to why all the planners got blinded to the obvious? Could it be that some of the sub-ordinates had the sight but not the nerve in the face of a powerful superior? In hierarchical organisations, there is precious little room for dissent, but in autocratic ones like the military, it takes more than a spine to disagree, for there are very few commanders who are large enough to allow such liberties. It is out of fear of annoying the superior – which also carries with it manifold penalties and loss of promotion and perks – that the majority decide to go along with the wind.

In a country where democratic traditions have never been deep-rooted, it is no big exposé to point out that the military is steeped in an authoritarian, rather than a consensual approach. To my mind, there is an urgent need to inculcate a more liberal culture that accommodates different points of view – a more lateral approach, so to speak. Disagreement during planning should be systemically tolerated and, not taken as a personal affront. Unfortunately, many in higher ranks seem to think that rank alone confers wisdom and, anyone displaying signs of intelligence at an earlier stage is, somehow, an alien in their ‘star-spangled’ universe.

Kargil, I suspect, like the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course. Such an organisational milieu, based on honest appraisal and fearless appeal, would be conducive to sound and sensible planning. It would also go a long way in precluding Kargil-like disasters.

Tailpiece

Come change-over time of the Chief of Air Staff in 2001, President Musharraf struck at PAF’s top leadership in what can only be described as implacable action: he passed over all five Air Marshals and appointed the sixth-in-line who was practically an Air Vice Marshal till a few weeks before. While disregarding of seniority in the appointment of service chiefs has historically been endemic in the country, the practice has been seen as breeding nepotism and partiality, besides leaving a trail of conjecture and gossip in the ranks. Given Air Chief Marshal Mehdi’s rather straight-faced and forthright dealings with General Musharraf, particularly during Kargil conflict, there is good reason to believe that the latter decided to appoint a not-very-senior Air Chief whom he could order around like one of his Corps Commanders. (As it turned out, Air Chief Marshal Mus’haf was as solid as his predecessor and gave no quarter when it came to PAF’s interests.) Whatever the reason of bypassing seniority, it was unfortunate that PAF’s precious corporate experience was thrown out so crassly and several careers destroyed. Lives and honour lost in Kargil is another matter.

baisd , off topic,eithinicly oreinted post?
derailing thread!
reported

 

[nangyale]

Wrrora naraaaz ho ?

Did I say something wrong ?

Nahi Bhai bilkul be nahi
I didn't mean it in a bad way. I hope you are not upset with me, coz of my reply

 

[pkuser2k12]

the urban terrorists of karachi are hurt by losing grip on there base in karachi and feudals and industrialists are on turn based government and opposition

they want business as usual

they will keep wishing InshAllah

 

[Mav3rick]

plz, just be specific to the topic!ok
im really trying to be as nice as much as i can with you, i dont know why?


baisd , off topic,eithinicly oreinted post?
derailing thread!
reported

I don't remember ever reporting a post before. However, the way he got personal, I just had to report. I mean, I had the option of coming back with cross breeding definitions of my own for him but then what would be the difference b/w me and him.

 

[Porus]

I don't remember ever reporting a post before. However, the way he got personal, I just had to report. I mean, I had the option of coming back with cross breeding definitions of my own for him but then what would be the difference b/w me and him.

Yeah man, and you are such a gentleman. I never initiate the mudslinging contest unless others forced me to do so. I have removed that part anyway. I have been verbally abused in a far more severe manner but the mods never took any notice, they are anyway biased towards me and I know the reasons.

 

[batmannow]

Yeah man, and you are such a gentleman. I never initiate the mudslinging contest unless others forced me to do so. I have removed that part anyway. I have been verbally abused in a far more severe manner but the mods never took any notice, they are anyway biased towards me and I know the reasons.

sory, but thats the way it is, you hve to be patient here?try to put your POV just once, if everybody likes that then you ill know by the likes you gona get?
but dont be presistent about, it & going to the moon to prove yourself?right
MODS here has became a lot softer then, 5 years before you cant imagine it?
they hve been, more libral now adays?
every thing will be allright?
thanks take care

I don't remember ever reporting a post before. However, the way he got personal, I just had to report. I mean, I had the option of coming back with cross breeding definitions of my own for him but then what would be the difference b/w me and him.

actully its not the matter who is right or wrong, but. crazy thing was, the boxing match went out of the ring?
it was derailling the thread, even though your POV was true & on the point!
i admire you post mate!
but im what they call, the targeted , most hated one on PDF? lolzzz
guss you know it!
keep up the good work?

 

[Jzaib]

plz show a good proov by the royal british police, that Altaf was denied his trip to dubai?
in karachi every other party has the guns, if thats the case then UZAIR BALUCH, OR BABA LADALAA should hve been in sindh assembly at least?
no your claims are biasd!

batman is back to safe atlaf ...and u r not baised against IK ..right .. btw i have a question, one u have ever read ur post.. did it even make sense to u ? i personally think u should be ban as i genuinly think u r mentally retarded

 

[batmannow]

batman is back to safe atlaf ...and u r not baised against IK ..right .. btw i have a question, one u have ever read ur post.. did it even make sense to u ? i personally think u should be ban as i genuinly think u r mentally retarded

i guss, wrong time , friend?
i was clear from the frist day, even before the elections, when you guys were celebrating the foolish khans victory as the next PM of pakistan?
even with the open support of the TTp killers in KPK, still PTI needs JI as its sleeping masters to form a provincial govt in KPK?
what happened to the sunami on 13 may 2013? ohh went into the gutters? right?
& after his fall from the stage, foolish khan cant even find his place as the main opposition leader in fakly elected NA?
ever you tried to think , what happend wrong, why PTI been disgraced so down?
its all just because IMRAN,s foolish way of thinking, giving offices to TTp?
to the killers of, 60,000 innocent pakistanis?
man of peace, went into blankets with fear of failure, when was appointed as the negociator by the TTp dogs?
telling whole pakistan that hakkem ullha mehsud was just a innocent tribal?
my dear friend , if ever ALTAF have done that, you ill see me going against. MQM 1000 times more aggersive , at least on PDF & thats my promise?
but the fact is that, ALTAF was one of very few leaders, telling the nation from the begaining that, TTp are the worst kind of terrorists, & he still stands against them at least polticly?
why cant IMRAN can come up with a clear stand against TTp terroists & thier terrorism in which 60,000 pakistanis have losted thier lives ?
at least a small dharni in KPK, agianst the TTp killers? no ?
IMRAN KHAN unexperinces led his fall in politics & his fame is ALL time LOW because of his foolish open political support to TTP TERRORISTS, all over pakistan???
i gusss, i have explained as much as i can, READ my points politics is not above the nation, & pakistan?
i belive in PAKISTAN FRIST!
if you hve any thing else to say plz hit me, but if like to come up, with personal attacks then just remember im the very best of, the attackers on PDF, im going to report you, then hit you back in a way which you never ever had thought before? TRY ME?
for me , you are a good patriotic pakistani, i think you like a brother but dont be mistaken you can use it as your godammmed advantge ?

 

[Patriots]

Every party started having guns after MQM started militant politics other wise all parties are all over pakistan no body does politics which Mafiya MQM does and all has to pick up Arms in karachi only

Perhaps you forgot IJT or you don't like to mention its name intentionally ... Before formation of APMSO in late seventies IJT goons had introduced arms in Karachi University ..............

@Pakistanisage Kindly correct me if I am wrong ............

 

[Patriots]

By the way which scumbag will you vote for next time? PML-N? They are towing PTI's line now. PML-N is copying PTI. Or for JI? They are with PTI too. Or PPP+Mushy-The-Traitor?, who brought Pak to where it is now, or for MQM-ANP who themselves are anti-Pak.!!! Or for Mullah-Diesel? whose maddrassas are producing terrorists all the time...!!

You too small to declaring anyone a traitor or anti-Pakistan .............