Is Pakistani military taking note of recent conflicts, technologies and tactics?

[PakFactor]

Both armies lack effective anti-aircraft firepower, so low-tech UAVs have had a lot of success.But these UAVs are of little use to modern armies.

It might be useful in small border skirmishes.

Talking to some retired US Military Officers these small UAV drones are a key asset in intelligence collection and helps analyze battlefield situation to prepare accordingly, and lest not forget even the countries with the best AD have gaps and these drones are the perfect tool to exploit and target infrastructure and installations.

 

[313ghazi]

Multiple recent conflicts

Syria
Yemen
Armenia- Azerbaijan

What we have seen is smart use of ATGMs nullify armour

Smart use of multiple drones decimate your enemy without risking your soldiers and hardware and jets etc which then can be reserved for if and when the conflict gets hot


is the Pakistani military taking note and adapting our fighting doctrine appropriately?

we have a Massive stock of Baktiar Shikans and missiles but have we any more modern or advanced ATGMs

Has PAKISTAN taken note of how drones are being used against enemy armour especially considering one of our closest allies is at the forefront of new drone technology and tactics, we have heard of drone development as part of project Azm but are getting anywhere with the multiple drone system countries like Turkey, Israel are now utilising

We've been extensively using ATGM's to target enemy bunkers along LOC. We've also procured a large number of modern ATGM's including the Kornet-E. This has been discussed on this very forum.

We're buying Chinese UCAV's and have our own Burraq UCAV operational. Also on this forum. A member on this forum who is in PA hinted that PA may be planning to use UCAV's to target enemy logistics and infrastructure. No reason why it wouldn't include armoured columns.

It might be easier to list the technologies Pakistani military has not paid attention to, which include:

Cyberattacks (Iran, Israel, North Korea, China, Russia, US)
Drones (Iran, Israel, Turkey, China, US) - Burraq UCAV, we also have Shahpur, Uqab and Jasoos operational. We also are buying and flying foreign drones, including Chinese and Italian ones.
Cheap DIY suicide drones (Iran)
Satellites (Iran, Israel, Russia, India, China, US)
Precision cruise missiles (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US) - We have Babur, it's a cruise missile.
Civilian space program (Iran, India, Russia, China, US)
Artificial military islands (Iran, China, US) - Do we have a military that could benefit from one or even protect the assets put on one?
Dual use civill/military rockets (Iran, China, Russia, US)
EMP weapons (Iran, China, Russia, US)
Asymmetric decentralized navy (Iran)
Remote control explosive boats (Iran)
Small speedboats (Iran) - We're buying and building lots of FAC's. Can't remember the names.
EFP armor piercing IED (Iran)
Sea skimming missiles (Iran, Russia, China, US) zarb cruise missile? Then there is the submarine launched version of Babur.
Artificial intelligence (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Proxy warfare (Iran, Israel, Russia, US) - Kashmir, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya - plenty of experience here. Is it overt and brazen like those countries you stated? No.
Ballistic missiles (Iran, Israel, India, North Korea, China, Russia, US) - Are you suggesting we don't have ballistic missiles?
Cryptocurrency (Iran, North Korea, China, Russia)
JF-17 export restrictions - Aren't we exporting to Myanmar, Nigeria (and Azerbaijan potentially?)
Reverse engineering (Iran, China) - How did you think the Babur came about?
Loitering munitions (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Terrain and topography surveying
SCADA cyberattacks on infrastructure (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Exportable missiles (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Hypersonic glide vehicle (Iran, China, US)
MIRV research (Iran, China, US) - Ababeel says hi.
Underground missile bunkers (Iran, Russia, China, US) - how do you know? where do we keep them?
Drones and cyberattacks (Iran, Turkey, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Directed energy weapons (Turkey)
Seizing enemy ships (Iran)
Guaranteed hit smart scope rifles (Israel, US)
Ninja blade missiles (US)

That list is inaccurate. I've made some notes on it. I can't tell if you were trolling or not.

 

[diligence]

The swarm drone tactic is being studies by the US Navy:

- Helps deplete enemy air defenses forcing them to fire their ammo
- Helps expose locations of enemy fire
- Allows a pin point targeting of strategic assets on enemy land or sea asset (ships, tanks, etc.)

Some drones might not completely destroy certain assets but could render them immobile and out of action --

Of course there are more similar benefits of using drones. But these are indirect benefits of using drones. What I am talking about is a group of drones flying to the battle field, work cooperatively and autonomously to take out the enemy assets without a need for feeding them with the target coordinates. These drones will be smart enough to recognize their targets from the background clutter, coordinate with each other to pick/assign the targets simultaneously among themselves, and then hit those targets. The enemy gets, say, 50 hits at the same time and boom... 5o enemy assets got knocked out in no time. That is the direct and active fighting action that these birds will do. People with machine learning and AI background know that it is very much doable task. It needs only resources and related R&D.

 

[Falcon26]

It's not like this has not been pitched, or that they do know how this tech can change the results on the ground. But it's mindset of a generation. Can't make old people think different. It would be either via spilt blood or some miracle.

Majority here does not know that the first weapon system Chinese deployed in Depsang were Sula89 drones, to offset Indian infantry advantage in mountain warfare. And this was one of the first things that Nato was updated about. India directly went for an off the shelf buy, after this. All of this tech will eventually be used against us too. =)

Good points. ZAB kept pitching the nuclear program to the military for years and it took the 1971 debacle to change their mindset.

 

[Falcon26]

no matter how much their thinking has been shaped by WoT, or no matter how busy the COAS is, the army is a huge organization. it must have a think-tank that looks into these matters and advises the planners accordingly. so, either that think-tank is useless, or the planners are.

it appears as if they are living in a bubble, and refuse to listen to others. similar things have been witnessed by those who work in nescom. seniors are not willing to change/adapt new technologies. higher ups are not interested in doing any innovation or anything new, they do what the army tells them, or what they already know.

At one point, there was a plan to significantly reduce the size of PA. This was during Musharraf era. The plan was to have highly trained and equipped 250k-350k that was more suited for the modern warfare. This was akin to the Israeli model that relies on mix of highly trained, agile and hard-hitting army packed by superior Air Force. Unfortunately, the WOT hit and since then, Pakistan hasn’t given any serious thought to some of Musharraf’s forward-thinking ideas.

 

[ziaulislam]

Tell me about it, I want to go hide somewhere whenever I remember how many technologies Pakistan military is missing. It is embarrassing.

No drone force in Pakistan in 2020 is honestly unbelievable and utterly unacceptable.

There is no other country on earth with an enemy as hostile as India is to Pakistan that doesn't have a drone force in 2020.

We started with falco 15 years ago..we simply didnt invest or made progress

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

At one point, there was a plan to significantly reduce the size of PA. This was during Musharraf era. The plan was to have highly trained and equipped 250k-350k that was more suited for the modern warfare. This was akin to the Israeli model that relies on mix of highly trained, agile and hard-hitting army packed by superior Air Force. Unfortunately, the WOT hit and since then, Pakistan hasn’t given any serious thought to some of Musharraf’s forward-thinking ideas.

In general, the armed forces only ever explored massive force changes like that when there was a stable source of income. In Ayub Khan and Musharraf's times, we could leverage US aid in various ways to directly and indirectly achieve that outcome. The PAF and PN seem to be on-track to their long-term vision, but the Army hasn't moved as far (likely owing to its larger size, wider leadership stakeholders, and other factors).

 

[JonAsad]

What is a loitering missile/ammo?

In recent Azerbaijan and Armenian conflict people calling them suicide drones.. which basically what they are..

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Let it be a surprise to our enemy.

27 Feb 2019 was a very small trial.

1. Use of smart SoWs 100 kms away from the target.
2. Use of EW/ECM and AWACS combo to assist offensive and defensive missions. A complete enemy comm and radar denial.

I was watching a Turkish TV talk show last night on the recent Azerbayjan-Armenia skirmishes. The Azeri experts - both civil and military - were mentioning Turkey and Pakistan within the same sentence.....

 

[Vapour]

At one point, there was a plan to significantly reduce the size of PA. This was during Musharraf era. The plan was to have highly trained and equipped 250k-350k that was more suited for the modern warfare. This was akin to the Israeli model that relies on mix of highly trained, agile and hard-hitting army packed by superior Air Force. Unfortunately, the WOT hit and since then, Pakistan hasn’t given any serious thought to some of Musharraf’s forward-thinking ideas.

Regardless of how much you gain in efficiency, can PA afford such a reduction in troop numbers given the substantial length of borders needed to be defended as well as IA already fielding a larger army with better resources?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

In recent Azerbaijan and Armenian conflict people calling them suicide drones.. which basically what they are..

May be Alpagu loitering drones with 5km range and10 min of loitering time......

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

May be Alpagu loitering drones with 5km range and10 min of loitering time......

Will you shoot tanks with Alpagu? Dude, I don't know, do you realize, but there are no Pakistani Army purchasers here. You don't have to be bullshit just to show products that you don't even believe in yourself.

 

[paritosh]

Terrific post. We need to pretty much abandon tanks and go drone drone drone.

tanks were meant to be cost effective options for delivering massive firepower with mobility. They were cost effective because of two main reasons - reliance on dumb shells that are cheap and pack a punch and a lower reliance on field logistics (something artillery massively depends on).
The moment tanks transformed from being used to push and capture territory to being used for holding a territory, the focus shifted to sinking money into tank defence which is a losing cause, making tanks extremely financially and operationally ineffective. A drone tank that doesn’t focus on protection and focuses on offensive mobile power, seems a winner as far as I am concerned.

 

[KaiserX]

tanks were meant to be cost effective options for delivering massive firepower with mobility. They were cost effective because of two main reasons - reliance on dumb shells that are cheap and pack a punch and a lower reliance on field logistics (something artillery massively depends on).
The moment tanks transformed from being used to push and capture territory to being used for holding a territory, the focus shifted to sinking money into tank defence which is a losing cause, making tanks extremely financially and operationally ineffective. A drone tank that doesn’t focus on protection and focuses on offensive mobile power, seems a winner as far as I am concerned.

1st lesson of tank warfare--- Tanks without infantry support are sitting ducks.

Be it drone tanks, light tanks, heavy tanks... a tank cannot operate alone without mechanized infantry.

Now back to topic.... Pakistan needs to focus on drone technology and special forces.

We need to reduce the army size by atleast 100-150k. I mean give me a break ive seen my fair share of army men with buldging bellies. We need an army size of 450k max that is highly mobile, agile, and technologically advanced. While i strongly believe the overall army size needs to be decreased, I also strongly belive that that the size of the SSG/Special forces need to be increased. Special forces are becoming the modern day tip of the spear and are the frontline specialized soldiers. We need a special force size of atleast 40- 50k either within the army or as a seperate branch with its own independant command. This command should have its own drone fleet, helicopter fleet, and light mechanized armor. Time and time again we have seen that specialized units of 100-200 men have done more damage to the enemy than large formations of 10,000 men.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Establishment let Nawaz off the hook thinking he might want to calm down and spend the rest of his days in London, but they never learn. Ab wahan se beth kar geela danda de raha aur army maze le rahi hai. Nice.

For all the engineering and maneuvering we credit them for, they're pretty short-sighted. Hoping they listen to people coming out of NDU.

But considering NDU's website is straight out of the 80's, I think they might be stuck in a time-loop where everyday is a Sunday.