Is it possibility the Indians didn’t know how to use their equipment for Jf-17 shooting down SU-30

[Sergi]

Is it possibility the Indians didn’t know how to use their equipment for Jf-17 shooting down SU-30 in Feb 2019?
Is it possibility the Indians don’t know how to use their equipment for Jf-17 vs SU-30 shot down in Feb 2019? We have to understand the psych behind India's failure in confronting deadly Pakistani Jets. The Indians look like they have become failures in Arab mindsets of purchasing equipment off the shelf instead of mastering them? From the looks of it New Dehli government just gave careless orders to its Air Force which in return the Air Force was average performance instead of top notch due to its training in pilots of flight hours.
First you have to understand how targets are tracked and fired upon.
Jf-17, Su-30MKI, and Rafale, like all modern aircraft have a radar that emits radiation waves. When these radiation waves hit a sizable object, they will reflect back to the radar receiver but only if the object is within the radar's tracking range.
Below are the radars of each aircraft and their maximum tracking ranges,
Rafale RBE2-AA: 200km
SU-30MKI N011M: 200km
Jf-17 Block I KLJ-7: 105km
Jf-17 Block II KLJ-7A-V2: 200km
[There is a problem not easily seen with above numbers that I will discuss at the end]
These radars will not track just any object (i.e. birds) but objects that have one or more of the following:
Large size: the larger the size, the easier the tracking
Large heat emission (i.e. from engine exhaust): the larger the heat emission, the easier the tracking
Radiation emissions (i.e. from object's radar): the larger the radiation emission, the easier the tracking.
You can go pretty undetected on any radar if you manage to somehow mask/reduce/eliminate #3.
#1 provides detection by the fact that airplanes have large bodies that heat up due to air friction and that heat spreads throughout the entire metallic airframe, but this only provides a weak signal known as an RCS (radar cross section). Interestingly, the Su-30MKI has one of the largest RCS of any fighter aircraft in the world. Rafale has a low RCS.
#2 provides detection by the fact that the engine nozzles and the exhaust gases are extremely hot and easily picked on by enemy radars, but the problem with this is that if the engine nozzles are facing away from you, your aircraft will not get good signals (because the body of enemy aircraft will be infront of it's hot engine nozzles); meaning, if your enemy is flying straight towards you, his engine nozzles will be hidden behind his aircraft.
#3 provides detection by the fact that the enemy aircraft’s radar, IF TURNED ON, will be emitting radiation emissions all around it for it's own purpose, and the radar reciever in your aircraft can pick enemy radiation very accurately and very precisely, to provide a strong signal.
In addition to these, air forces also operate another type of surveillance aircraft called an AWACSwhose only sole purpose of existence is to track enemies at long ranges and provide electronic intelligence, out of harm's way itself.
Below is a list of IAF & PAF AWACS and their maximum ranges,
IAF EL/W-2090: 400km
PAF Erieye: 450km
PAF ZDK-03: +400km (+undisclosed range)

Now, let me give you a simple hypothetical scenario with which you can build a reasonable imagination of how all this works (and I'll give you some common obstacles that arise in these scenarios),
Scenario 1:
IAF Su-30MKI with its radar turned on enters Pakistan Airspace. PAF sends Jf-17 with its radar turned off to intercept the intruder. Range between both aircraft is 75km and closing. Su-30MKI will have a very difficult time tracking the Jf-17 due to it's small size and no radiation emission. Jf-17 with radar off cannot track Su-30MKI on it's own BUT it can use datalinks from an Erieye +300km away that has been tracking the Su-30MKI. The Erieye will be out of the max. 200km Su-30MKI's tracking range. If Su-30MKI cannot track its enemy, it cannot shoot its enemy, and most likely it will get shot down by Jf-17.
Scenario 2:
IAF Su-30MKI with radar off, datalinked to a EL/W-2090 AWACS 200km behind it, enters Pakistan Airspace. PAF dispatches Jf-17 with radar off, datalinked to an Erieye AWACS 200km behind it. 75km distance between IAF and PAF. Both Su-30MKI and Jf-17 will have difficulty tracking each other but the odds will favor Jf-17 because it's small size (small RCS) and single-engine (small heat emission) is more difficult to track for the IAF AWACS, versus a larger size (larger RCS) and double-engined (larger heat emission) Su-30MKI which will be easier to track for the PAF AWACS.
In both scenarios, Su-30MKI is at a disadvantage. This disadvantage is not necessarily the fault of the plane, but the situation. The situation is the Su-30MKI is entering beyond its territory into hostile territory where the enemy has more electronic coverage than IAF can get. If Rafale was used instead, it would have a better chance because of its smaller RCS but it would still be at a clear disadvantage due to more electronic coverage that defenders usually have.
Scenario 3:
Su-30MKI or Rafale with radar turned off, datalinked to EL/W-2090 AWACS 200km behind, enters 5km inside Pakistan Airspace. PAF dispatches low-flying Jf-17 50km away with radar off, datalinked to Erieye 200km behind as well as numerous powerful ground-based stationary radars and mobile radars with tracking ranges in excess of hundreds of kilometers. Obstacle: numerous mountains between the IAF and Jf-17 make it impossible for the EL/W-2090 to track the Jf-17. When the IAF crosses over a mountain (or even before), it will probably be in the tracking range of ground-based radars which will be linked to the Jf-17. In this scenario, Jf-17 will most likely shoot down the Su-30MKI/Rafale. Indian ground-based radars cannot track anything behind a mountain (radiation waves travel in straight lines).
Pakistan Army's Mobile Radar IBIS-150 has a 150km tracking range and it can move anywhere in the country, behind, in front, or in between mountains. This is just one type, there are many more ground based radars equipped in Pakistan army, including the mobile LY-80 with a 140km range stacked with a surface-to-air missile to do the job of interception.
This is the defender's advantage which allows inferior aircraft to shoot down superior aircraft.
If Jf-17 went head-to-head versus an Su-30MKI or Rafale, 75km apart in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, Jf-17 would most likely be shot down. But at its home turf where it has greater access to electronic coverage from multiple sources, head-to-head it will likely win most battles.
If you look at modern conflicts, i.e. invasion of Iraq or the aerial strikes of Libya, the first thing the Americans would do is to take out the radar stations with long-range cruise missiles.
The stealthiest aircraft in the world, the F-117.. do you know why it was so stealthy? Because it did not have a radar! It relied entirely on datalinks. Yet still, somebody managed to shoot it down.
At the end of the day, what really matters is the people operating all the different machines and systems. If they are more motivated than you, have a higher morale than you, less stressed than you, more intelligent than you, you will likely lose the battle regardless of how superior your equipment is.

Source Quora https://qr.ae/TW8Qwb
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Offcourse, We don’t know s.hit. We buy all the fancy stuff just showcase it on trucks. We train and pay our service men so that we feel good. We are nowhere the might of elite Pakistan and it’s alianware hardware.
There is no such thing as defenders advantage. Almighty PAF went till South end of India and return back with no scratch Next time try entering the enemy air space then see the myth busted.
Mig-21 pilot entered the enemy airspace in hot pursuit. So if you think he doesn’t know what he was doing ??? Good for you. Next time tell your Aces to engage a pursuit in hostile airspace then you will know the worth of hardware and ofcouse the airmen.

 

[Cuirassier]

Offcourse, We don’t know s.hit. We buy all the fancy stuff just showcase it on trucks. We train and pay our service men so that we feel good. We are nowhere the might of elite Pakistan and it’s alianware hardware.
There is no such thing as defenders advantage. Almighty PAF went till South end of India and return back with no scratch Next time try entering the enemy air space then see the myth busted.
Mig-21 pilot entered the enemy airspace in hot pursuit. So if you think he doesn’t know what he was doing ??? Good for you. Next time tell your Aces to engage a pursuit in hostile airspace then you will know the worth of hardware and ofcouse the airmen.

Speaking of defender's advantage, who told you to cross the LC?

 

[Sergi]

Speaking of defender's advantage, who told you to cross the LC?

Nobody. That the point dude. Do you even understand what Mig21 pilot did ??? Nobody asked him to chase. He did it on his own risk.

Speaking of defender's advantage, who told you to cross the LC?

Just remembered a quote
How can a man die better,
Than facing the fierce full odd,
For the temples of his gods,
And the ashes of his forefathers

 

[Cuirassier]

Nobody. That the point dude. Do you even understand what Mig21 pilot did ??? Nobody asked him to chase. He did it on his own risk.


Just remembered a quote
How can a man die better,
Than facing the fierce full odd,
For the temples of his gods,
And the ashes of his forefathers

Well, if he had shown some caution it could have saved him.

They say there's a fine line between bravery and foolishness. And I get it, you're a Maroon Beret lover. [emoji12]

 

[Sergi]

Well, if he had shown some caution it could have saved him.

They say there's a fine line between bravery and foolishness. And I get it, you're a Maroon Beret lover. [emoji12]

Fine line between bravery and foolishness.Ya you got that right. Now ask your PM why he was saved then you will fine a right place to place a word moron. And may be in 3/4 years your AF will accept the loss of F16 just like your people did with Kargil guies. Let them die like pigs and later acknowledged their bravery Plz help yourself and feel free to talk with Northen Light Infentry

 

[Cuirassier]

Fine line between bravery and foolishness.Ya you got that right. Now ask your PM why he was saved then you will fine a right place to place a word moron. And may be in 3/4 years your AF will accept the loss of F16 just like your people did with Kargil guies. Let them die like pigs and later acknowledged their bravery Plz help yourself and feel free to talk with Northen Light Infentry

Why do you seem to be irked dear fellow.
Truth be told, the F-16 story is a good lollipop like the Su-30MKI claim is, for both domestic audiences to boost their spirits.

NLI seems to be on every other Indian's mind, guess your men couldn't forget their experiences with them? Losing more men and material there and spewing such BS is pretty audacious.

 

[_Sherdils_]

Fine line between bravery and foolishness.Ya you got that right. Now ask your PM why he was saved then you will fine a right place to place a word moron. And may be in 3/4 years your AF will accept the loss of F16 just like your people did with Kargil guies. Let them die like pigs and later acknowledged their bravery Plz help yourself and feel free to talk with Northen Light Infentry

I think both air forces are professional and view each other with respect.

What's despicable is all the shameless Indian trolls rampant on social media trying to claim the "success" of strikes and the F-16 kill without an iota of proof.

Our proof: we served tea to your pilot
Your proof: your air force in future will admit just wait - wtf dude seriously?

Look at international media, they have literally stopped even mentioning your claim of the F-16 kill. They just mention Pakistan shot down an indian jet and captured a pilot and that's it!

International media has shared satelite images showing IAF missed targets, even thewire.in which is Indian has shared HD imagery to prove the strikes were unsuccessful andathe reasons why but you trolls are special in your delusion, nothing can save you, not even time. You will live in this delusion forever.

 

[Mav3rick]

I just mean that the development potential of JF-17 is huge, only depending on what PAF wants it to be in the future.

I most definitely agree. But regardless of what PAF wants, and not even going in the affordability argument, Chinese tech is just NOT there yet. I mean, even today Thunders have to use a Russian Engine merely because Chinese Engines are not mature enough and so on and so forth.

 

[LKJ86]

I mean, even today Thunders have to use a Russian Engine merely because Chinese Engines are not mature enough and so on and so forth.

It has nothing about whether Chinese engines are mature enough or not now.
It is just about the additional cost that PAF isn't willing to pay.

 

[Mav3rick]

It has nothing about whether Chinese engines are mature enough or not now.
It is just about the additional cost that PAF isn't willing to pay.

So you mean to say that China can produce engines comparable to Pratt & Whitney F119 for Thunders, if Pakistan can afford it?

I seriously hope you get the gist of it and quit this senseless debate. If you are trying to prove to me that China today can produce defense goods which are comparable to top US/European products then there is no point in arguing because it will never convince anyone. In Fighter Jets alone, China is still playing catch-up to American Jet of the 90's and there are serious doubts about Chinese capability and capacity to produce something equivalent to the F-22 even today, over 20 years after the first flight of an F-22.

But, I have faith in China and I believe that in 30-50 years, China will be ahead of US technology, if atleast not at par. And so even if Pakistan can afford, China cannot provide capabilities which are still not available with China.

Infact, it would be interesting to see if any Chinese Jet can take on a Rafale in single one on one scenario without external assistance from ground based or aerial systems.

 

[Imran Khan]

indians should not spouse to tell you this

 

[LKJ86]

So you mean to say that China can produce engines comparable to Pratt & Whitney F119 for Thunders, if Pakistan can afford it?

Engines like F119 for JF-17? Are you crazy?

Infact, it would be interesting to see if any Chinese Jet can take on a Rafale in single one on one scenario without external assistance from ground based or aerial systems.

For A2A, J-10C can do that job, although its multirole is not so perfect.
Except J-20, J-16...

 

[Mav3rick]

Engines like F119 for JF-17? Are you crazy?

Perhaps I am unable to explain, or you are deliberately misunderstanding. It was not about the type of Engine for 'Thunder' but rather an engine equivalent to F119 which China cannot even produce today, even for her own use!!!!

For A2A, J-10C can do that job, although its multirole is not so perfect.
Except J-20, J-16...

As I said, it would be interesting to see. It is, however, not interesting to read your opinion about Chinese top of the line 4.5th Gen Fighters taking on Rafale because your opinion is biased, in China's favor.

 

[Raider 21]

Do you guys know how Pakistani pilots are chosen, amongst the millions who apply less than 100 (from the top) are chosen. In Pakistan, being a pilot in PAF is as much respected as top doctors in their field. Imagine 100 highest IQs from lets assume 2 million applicants.

Above average people but not the high IQs projected. All kinds of people apply for it.

 

[LKJ86]

As I said, it would be interesting to see. It is, however, not interesting to read your opinion about Chinese top of the line 4.5th Gen Fighters taking on Rafale because your opinion is biased, in China's favor.

In fact, no one knows the real performance of 4.5th-generation fighters in high-intensity conflicts.
And India used to be proud of Su-30MKI, but Rafale now.

Perhaps I am unable to explain, or you are deliberately misunderstanding. It was not about the type of Engine for 'Thunder' but rather an engine equivalent to F119 which China cannot even produce today, even for her own use!!!!

I think you missed WS-15.