Is Hindi-Urdu Closer to Persian or Turkic?

[Sugarcane]

I would say Persian. I mean look at the anthem of Pakistan. It is understandable both in Persian and Urdu.

Example of anthem is wrong there is only one adverb in whole anthem, other wise from grammar, structure to vocabulary it's more in Farsi than Urdu.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well..well
From whatever lil knowledge I have of IVC (SSC in my lexicon, I believe Sarawasti had an equally important part to play as the Sindhu river in IVC), archaeologists found evidences of circular houses and pottery divergent from that of inhabitants of SSC, towards stage-VII of SSC.
Now if at all these newcomers were Aryans then they would have had very little influence on the inhabitants of SSC, who had already moved towards Ganges plains after a cataclysmic event.
In the gulf of Cambay remnants of a twin metropolises were found, these were dated back to the end of ice age (when the last of the 3 pulses of melt water was released). The twin cities were structurally identical to Harappa.
So for obvious reasons I believe the influence of culture(and language) would have happened from east to west in this case.

+ this discovery pretty much reinforces my belief
Rare discovery pushes back Iron Age in India - The Times of India

I hope you have got the difference between the cultures that we are discussing here, and the advent of the Iron Age that the ToI story talks about. They are different, chalk and cheese. The Aryan-speaking immigrants are probably the ones responsible for the introduction of iron, and the dates, 2400 BC to 1800 BC, are not inconsistent with that advent.

Why not East?

Because that followed large rivers and fertile alluvial soil.

Which a people tired of moving and desirous of roots would have coveted for a settle-down.

The deccan at the time would still have been largely a land of smaller rivers, and volcanic activity and soil and plateau rockbed.



Bingo.

A garrison tongue I believe some call/ed it.

??

You do know that 'horde' and 'urdu' have a common etymology? and that urdu was known as the language of the camp?

 

[Srinivas]

Smart alec.

As of now, the accepted academic version, which @levina is fighting so hard, is that a common horde of Indo-Iranian speakers split apart - timing and speed and seriousness of the speed not known - in a region which could be where the graphic shown earlier indicates, northern Iran, somewhere near the Caspian, or around the Syr Daria/ Amu Daria delta. They may have been moving west to east, as the graphic suggests, throwing out a peculiar off-shoot into the Takla Makan, the Tukharians, or north-north-east, from the BMAC culture location, to south-south-west, through Balkh and onwards to the Iranian plateau.

The split seems to have been religious in nature, as the roles of gods and Titans are reversed on each side of the split.

The minority faction moved across the mountain barriers, either to the north, or to the south, through the Bolan, in dribs and drabs, replicated their tribal nature as they recovered for a few generations in the Indus Valley, and moved into the Gangetic plain by about 1500 BC.

This is reflected in genetic terms, as there was a giant churning of ANI and ASI at that time, for a protracted period. It is tempting to see this perturbation as reflecting the increasing spread of the Indo-Aryan language over the Gangetic Plain, and physical distancing of the older elites speaking Dravidian from the scene of the linguistic take-over.

We came from you.

It is a mix of beliefs that happened in Gangetic plains, It may be immigrants or cultural exchanges.

Yoga is the epi centre for Vedas and there is no mention of this technique in Persia or other parts of world, similarly the letter OM. Making a Dravidian looking guy as the supreme GOD either Rama, Krishna or Shiva.

we can see the yogic pose in IVC depicting Manu or may be Shiva.

They all point to that some kind of amalgamation happened in India. Or Brahmins are given the job to spread the faith by the rulers at that time ( no idea)

Crediting all the things to a small group of migrants is not correct I think.

Indra is the major God in Vedas but with the passage of time Vishnu or Shiva is given more importance and these guys are seen as supreme God.

This points to the fact that the change of beliefs happened based on the assertions of the Majority in India.

There are many missing links for sure in this regard.

 

[Levina]

After my class; I have to teach Michael Porter's Five Forces, and there is little that is more boring.

The business model???
(Or something to that effect).
Yeah I have heard about it. But thenevrrythingvrleater to industries and business whooshes over my head.

The class is also a boring one. None of them inspire me; I really don't like them

Don't mind...but it's up to the professor to make the class an interesting one...or so I believe. Being a corporate trainer myself, I have a lil experience in this field. I had a tough time training a few Mauritanians today.

 

[vsdoc]

??

You do know that 'horde' and 'urdu' have a common etymology? and that urdu was known as the language of the camp?

Yup. It developed out of the need of the Perso-turks to communicate with the local soldiers as the armies grew and took on a greater local hue. With the swelling ranks came hierarchies. And power center politics as well. Much of it revolving, surprisingly in spite of the Muslim commonality, or maybe not so surprisingly based on what we know and see today, around the victor vs the recently-vanquished-now-on-our-side.

I believe camp and garrison are used interchangeably here.

 

[Levina]

I hope you have got the difference between the cultures that we are discussing here, and the advent of the Iron Age that the ToI story talks about. They are different, chalk and cheese. The Aryan-speaking immigrants are probably the ones responsible for the introduction of iron, and the dates, 2400 BC to 1800 BC, are not inconsistent with that advent.

My bad!
I should have explained what I really meant there.
I meant an Iron find in the Deccan indicates indigenous origins.. It also means that the ppl who had migrated to central part of India picked up the technology from deccan. To summarise it, the direction in which technology and languages seem to have travelled is contrary to popular belief.
But before coming to any conclusion I would wait for some more discoveries down south(which is rare because archeolgists find IVC/SSC more interesting). Not so long back Britishers had ostensibly "conlcuded" that India's history began at 3BC. Their theory fell flat on its face when they stumbled upon Harappa.


Ciao

 

[Joe Shearer]

It is a mix of beliefs that happened in Gangetic plains, It may be immigrants or cultural exchanges.

Yoga is the epi centre for Vedas and there is no mention of this technique in Persia or other parts of world, similarly the letter OM. Making a Dravidian looking guy as the supreme GOD either Rama, Krishna or Shiva.

we can see the yogic pose in IVC depicting Manu or may be Shiva.

They all point to that some kind of amalgamation happened in India. Or Brahmins are given the job to spread the faith by the rulers at that time ( no idea)

Crediting all the things to a small group of migrants is not correct I think.

Indra is the major God in Vedas but with the passage of time Vishnu or Shiva is given more importance and these guys are seen as supreme God.

This points to the fact that the change of beliefs happened based on the assertions of the Majority in India.

There are many missing links for sure in this regard.

There is much more than meets the eye. After my (dull and boring) class.

The business model???
(Or something to that effect).
Yeah I have heard about it. But thenevrrythingvrleater to industries and business whooshes over my head.


Don't mind...but it's up to the professor to make the class an interesting one...or so I believe. Being a corporate trainer myself, I have a lil experience in this field. I had a tough time training a few Mauritanians today.

This is a class with a sense of entitlement. The difficulties started elsewhere, now that they have started showing up in my class, it is hugely offputting.

Real Mauritanians? or Mauritians? if Mauretanians/Mauritanians, you have a tough time ahead.

My bad!
I should have explained what I really meant there.
I meant an Iron find in the Deccan indicates indigenous origins.. It also means that the ppl who had migrated to central part of India picked up the technology from deccan. To summarise it, the direction in which technology and languages seem to have travelled is contrary to popular belief.
But before coming to any conclusion I would wait for some more discoveries down south(which is rare because archeolgists find IVC/SSC more interesting). Not so long back Britishers had ostensibly "conlcuded" that India's history began at 3BC. Their theory fell flat on its face when they stumbled upon Harappa.


Ciao

Your bad. Your assessment, and who are we to disagree?

 

[Levina]

Real Mauritanians?

Hahaha
Yes, Mauritanians from Mauritania.
I don't understand their French.

you have a tough time ahead.

Don't scare me.

Your bad. Your assessment, and who are we to disagree?

Run out of arguments Mr Joe?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hahaha
Yes, Mauritanians from Mauritania.
I don't understand their French.


Don't scare me.


Run out of arguments Mr Joe?

Of course! Against a fertile brain and superb grasp of the subject such as yours, who stands a chance? As it happens, it was my class, from 18:00 to 19:15, which I adjourned early after a student squashed a frog (I am informed it was unintentional).

My bad!
I should have explained what I really meant there.
I meant an Iron find in the Deccan indicates indigenous origins.. It also means that the ppl who had migrated to central part of India picked up the technology from deccan. To summarise it, the direction in which technology and languages seem to have travelled is contrary to popular belief.
But before coming to any conclusion I would wait for some more discoveries down south(which is rare because archeolgists find IVC/SSC more interesting). Not so long back Britishers had ostensibly "conlcuded" that India's history began at 3BC. Their theory fell flat on its face when they stumbled upon Harappa.


Ciao

An iron find in the Deccan hardly indicates indigenous origins. Why did you say that?

Second, where did you dig up that 3 BC date?

Third, what route are you looking at, Central India via the Deccan? There're more.

 

[Bang Galore]

So my 10th std pass crude history post above yours was pretty accurate?

Not clear at all. The Indo-Iranian split has always been a bit curious. Those advocating the conventionally held theory suggesting that the split happened somewhere in central Asia or Northern Iran have never been able to reconcile it with the fact that the commonality of language in the Rg Veda is noticed in a very late part -the 8th Mandala, not as would be expected if the split happened earlier where the commonality should have shown up, if at all, in the early parts. No scholar has been able to explain it. Add to it, the fact that known Iranian mythology starts of from late Rg vedic mythology has been noticed by all top Avesta/n scholars. Also the fact that the Avesta is ignorant of western Iran while being both aware & claiming as part of their lands the Hapta Hendu. Makes no sense if they came in directly from the north & settled in Iran.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Not clear at all. The Indo-Iranian split has always been a bit curious. Those advocating the conventionally held theory suggesting that the split happened somewhere in central Asia or Northern Iran have never been able to reconcile it with the fact that the commonality of language in the Rg Veda is noticed in a very late part -the 8th Mandala, not as would be expected if the split happened earlier where the commonality should have shown up, if at all, in the early parts. No scholar has been able to explain it. Add to it, the fact that known Iranian mythology starts of from late Rg vedic mythology has been noticed by all top Avesta/n scholars. Also the fact that the Avesta is ignorant of western Iran while being both aware & claiming as part of their lands the Hapta Hendu. Makes no sense if they came in directly from the north & settled in Iran.

Doubt, as some people say, is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

Here you go again......

 

[Cherokee]

Just to say the obvious @Joe Shearer posts are a pleasure to read .

 

[Levina]

iron find in the Deccan hardly indicates indigenous origins. Why did you say that?

Second, where did you dig up that 3 BC date?

Third, what route are you looking at, Central India via the Deccan? There're more.

Will reply back in detail later. Gotta prepare some docs for tomorrow.

 

[TMA]

Dari is cultured and better than hindi but not urdu.

We will have to agree to disagree. All I will say is that Allama Iqbal preferred Dari to Urdu. And he was a master of both languages. Our Muslim history in Central and South Asia is most and better preserved in Dari/Persian rather than Urdu. Our elders made a great mistake. We would have been much closer to Iran, Tajikstan and Afghanistan and also our Muslim history.

 

[Bang Galore]

Doubt, as some people say, is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

Here you go again......

Oh I agree completely. Which is why you never see me offer up my "certain" ideas of where the split happened etc.....