Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[surya kiran]

3)And all i am saying is that we should atleast start radar trials like russians

We can if we get the prototypes

Our whole assumption of getting fgfa in 2022 was

1)Rafale delivery will start in 2015 and by 2022 we will have a sizable number...........assumption was good but as usual delayed


3)lca will be produced serially from like 2012 onwards and with rate of prosuction of 12 per year we will move on ti mk2 in 2015-16......................very good thinking but where is lca??answer------will get foc in 2014 end ,start mass production in 2015

AWESOME..................RIGHT

And consider that we are to etire all mig-21 in 2018.,,,,i think even mig-27 too

Mig 27 will be retired in 2017. The reason we need the Rafale and the LCA is to make up numbers and replace aircraft asap.

 

[sardar1987]

3)And all i am saying is that we should atleast start radar trials like russians

We can if we get the prototypes

Our whole assumption of getting fgfa in 2022 was

1)Rafale delivery will start in 2015 and by 2022 we will have a sizable number...........assumption was good but as usual delayed


3)lca will be produced serially from like 2012 onwards and with rate of prosuction of 12 per year we will move on ti mk2 in 2015-16......................very good thinking but where is lca??answer------will get foc in 2014 end ,start mass production in 2015

AWESOME..................RIGHT

And consider that we are to etire all mig-21 in 2018.,,,,i think even mig-27 too

Mig 27 will be retired in 2017. The reason we need the Rafale and the LCA is to make up numbers and replace aircraft asap.

news man news


IAF planning to phase out MiG-27 combat planes by 2017 - Indian Express

That was the whole argument...........the plan was to fill the gap between 2012 and 2022 with

1)lca

2)rafale

3)su-30 as usual

And now what will happen?

1)what happens if we retire 264 mig-21 in active service?

2)+90 odd mig 27 starting 2017??

ANSWER-------WE ARE SHORT BY 354 AIRCRAFTS!!!


So i ask pls calculate the number of replacements??


see even iaf is scared of prospects.......
http://aeoraw.blogspot.in/2013/04/indian-airforce-plans-delay-mig-21.html

 

[MilSpec]

Let sandy answer. He is ex HAL.

yes, it was wrong choice.Why even buy these aircraft in an age where ballistic and ground launched cruise missiles (GLCM) can accomplish the objectives for a much lower price.

i mean forget hal i doubt any agency can handle it??

You are again comparing the PakFA to the Rafale?????

Ok. I had already commented on this earlier. The FGFA is not expected to join before 2022. The current induction date is 2022 expect it to be 2025. So everything else you are saying is out of the window? What do you want to for the next 15 years?

For your question on can HAL handle, let me let an expert handle it. @sandy_3126 answer that.

The answer is simply NO..........it cannot handle 3 diff types of fighters from 3 diff agencies??can u counter this last argument?

Thats why i say chinese are smarter as the exactly did what i am saying and look at the diff today..............induct platforms that are similar

Few things, I would mention before answering any questions or engaging into any discourse on this matter.
1> Please learn about capabilities and shortcommings of any system before making sweeping statements.
2> When you are talking about production capability, production planning, prototyping, Product launch containment etc. Please look up the terms and their meaning before passing ridiculous verdicts
3> Please learn about MMRCA project, its requirements and it's intended applications.

HAL: If required budget is provided HAL can produce starship enterprise with the appropriate ToT is set up.
In strategic planning PMF FGFA is a top priority project for HAL hence the largest and the biggest HAL unit i.e. Nasik is assigned for this project, MKI line production will finish around 2017-18, Newer set for PMF FGFA, tooling and line setup will take atleast 2 years, with another year for ELC, Without any delays in FGFA, there is no way in hell that India is ever going to see Indian made FGFA's before the year 2021.

HAL banglore Aircraft division- will be tasked with AJT prodution/Overhaul, jaguar upgrade and overhaul is done by Overhaul division which will free up floor space for Rafale production, LCA Mk2 production hangars are already in process of setup, hence Rafale airframe production is realistically an easier transition in the existing jaguar line production hangars some of which space is being used by AJT currently. Apart from that construction of newer hangars doesn't seem to extremely dauting task.

Tooling for Airframe: Airframe tooling is an area where HAL can put the biggest manufacturers around the world at shame. HAL's conventional stamping and CNC complex are state of the art. AL CNC profilers in HAL are of the largest sizes in Asia and the quality standards are world class. Now this is the area where every ToT company wants to make the money, along with the product, the JV firm will always try to sell the machine tools, jigs, fixtures, plant layout system, material handling system, Hydraulic Fixture scaffolding. And this is exactly where HAL pisses off most companies. HAL has the capability to fursnish all of the ancillary equipment for the actual build process, which dassault or irkut or any other company would love to setup according to their wishes. That doesn't means there are no short-comings in the MFG setup, but most of these are solvable.

Engine: From the data available M88 Snecma is a simpler machine than the F404/414 which India Intends to license produce, Actually the most challenging engine ever has been a Khatchaturov R39's to produce, i dont see why M88 Snecma would pose any difficulty. If Russia can provide AL31F technology transfer which is much more potent and complex engine, I dont see why DB will have any apprehensions about M88 Snecma.

Radar: If DB decides no to provide complete TOT, that would actually help the build process. Once the radar protocols already available you can learn as much as you want from it, you dont need actual production details, because you will not learn anything from copying the process anyways. To evolve indigenous product (which wronglyseems to somehow has become the Indian obsession for Tot) You actually need to come up with your own prototypes, test them and catch your early quality issues, contain them and loop it onto your product development. thats how your will learn. You wont learn to make LCA by making MKI neither will you be able to make AMCA because you JVed FGFA. For your own product you need to sit down and do the hard work.

@sardar1987 : As far as your HAL related comments on this thread is concerned, I would recommend for you to do some research on what are the process and product capabilities of HAL, how HAL functions, how decisions are mandated.

 

[sardar1987]

Few things, I would mention before answering any questions or engaging into any discourse on this matter.
1> Please learn about capabilities and shortcommings of any system before making sweeping statements.
2> When you are talking about production capability, production planning, prototyping, Product launch containment etc. Please look up the terms and their meaning before passing ridiculous verdicts
3> Please learn about MMRCA project, its requirements and it's intended applications.

HAL: If required budget is provided HAL can produce starship enterprise with the appropriate ToT is set up.
In strategic planning PMF FGFA is a top priority project for HAL hence the largest and the biggest HAL unit i.e. Nasik is assigned for this project, MKI line production will finish around 2017-18, Newer set for PMF FGFA, tooling and line setup will take atleast 2 years, with another year for ELC, Without any delays in FGFA, there is no way in hell that India is ever going to see Indian made FGFA's before the year 2021.

HAL banglore Aircraft division- will be tasked with AJT prodution/Overhaul, jaguar upgrade and overhaul is done by Overhaul division which will free up floor space for Rafale production, LCA Mk2 production hangars are already in process of setup, hence Rafale airframe production is realistically an easier transition in the existing jaguar line production hangars some of which space is being used by AJT currently. Apart from that construction of newer hangars doesn't seem to extremely dauting task.

Tooling for Airframe: Airframe tooling is an area where HAL can put the biggest manufacturers around the world at shame. HAL's conventional stamping and CNC complex are state of the art. AL CNC profilers in HAL are of the largest sizes in Asia and the quality standards are world class. Now this is the area where every ToT company wants to make the money, along with the product, the JV firm will always try to sell the machine tools, jigs, fixtures, plant layout system, material handling system, Hydraulic Fixture scaffolding. And this is exactly where HAL pisses off most companies. HAL has the capability to fursnish all of the ancillary equipment for the actual build process, which dassault or irkut or any other company would love to setup according to their wishes. That doesn't means there are no short-comings in the MFG setup, but most of these are solvable.

Engine: From the data available M88 Snecma is a simpler machine than the F404/414 which India Intends to license produce, Actually the most challenging engine ever has been a Khatchaturov R39's to produce, i dont see why M88 Snecma would pose any difficulty. If Russia can provide AL31F technology transfer which is much more potent and complex engine, I dont see why DB will have any apprehensions about M88 Snecma.

Radar: If DB decides no to provide complete TOT, that would actually help the build process. Once the radar protocols already available you can learn as much as you want from it, you dont need actual production details, because you will not learn anything from copying the process anyways. To evolve indigenous product (which wronglyseems to somehow has become the Indian obsession for Tot) You actually need to come up with your own prototypes, test them and catch your early quality issues, contain them and loop it onto your product development. thats how your will learn. You wont learn to make LCA by making MKI neither will you be able to make AMCA because you JVed FGFA. For your own product you need to sit down and do the hard work.

@sardar1987 : As far as your HAL related comments on this thread is concerned, I would recommend for you to do some research on what are the process and product capabilities of HAL, how HAL functions, how decisions are mandated.

I will make only some statements

1)I don't doubt HAL but just like any public company it has its problems and time has come to divide it into divisions and privatize it...........reason?
a)govt can never provide enough budget for good focused research
b) Forget me from telling this but only 50% of hal employees are from general quota so say what u may,,,,a private company with indipendent recruitment is poised to do better
c)There has been questions raised on the quality of engines being overhauled at the hal and a specific petition has been filed by a pilot in supreme court in this regard
d)Yes hal can do the things u mention but is that ideal??
its not buddy,look at any indian public company,,except oil and defence psu's
all are making heavy loses.Why not hal makes loss..........simply because it is
the only company dealing with aerospace in india and getting all the orders.
e)People are just cursing me here but if the above steps are not taken as soon as possible in 10-15 years we are gonna
suffer and suffer a lot


f)Due to the menial work of manufacturing the aircrafts under the tot we hal just cannot spare time for indigenous work,niether the money...............the proof is that we are spending like 800-900 million dollars per year out of defence budget of 40 billion plus,,,and this paltry sum cannot do anything as evidenced from

1)failure to make a basic trainer
2)failure to make ijt
3)heck look at tejas(although iaf is to be blamed more)


Dude what can hal do if they get no money??
What can they do if private industry participation is zero due to foolish govt policies??
Which aviation industry does so many things as HAL..................NONE............WHY:because its inefficient
So i think this deal gives a chance to govt to restructure HAL

MY SOLUTION

1)Divide it into 4-5 diff divisions and auction at least 50% stake to a private partner:Govt will retain some portion and private party will invest for profits and ppl will actually fear for their jobs

2)Give at least 5-10% of defence budget for research

Yes u may say i am talking nonsense or don't understand the working but look anywhere in the world

GOVT AGENCIES CAN WORK BUT THEY CAN NEVER BE EFFICIENT

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1872051/report-ministry-of-defence-s-desi-projects-under-cag-fire
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-09-09/news/30135463_1_radio-sets-cag-raps-iaf
http://news.oneindia.in/2010/08/06/cagreport-says-hindustan-aeronautics-helicopters-not-up-to.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hal-sold-choppers-below-cost-price/1153404/

and this last one is just telling us our real condition
http://newindianexpress.com/cities/bangalore/article201627.ece?service=print

http://corruptionindrdo.com/2013/07...l-drdo-indias-premier-defence-organigation-2/
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/276426/cag-raps-hal-rs-43.html
http://www.cag.gov.in/html/reports/defence/2010-11_16CA_AFN/chap5.pdf
http://www.ibtl.in/news/opinion/2029/drdo-indias-lumbering-dinosaur/
http://www.cag.gov.in/reports/defence/1998_book2/chap3.htm
Read this from 2010-11 audit report on dhruv

The consultant recommended for indigenisation level of fifty
per cent
of purchases of
raw material and bought out items by the year 2008. However, 90
per cent
of the value of
material used in each helicopter is still imported from foreign suppliers. Even though
ALH is in production for 10 years, the Company has not been able to identify alternative
indigenous suppliers.

from the report of 2009-10

"Defence Public Sector Undertakings were established to provide the Armed
Forces state of the art equipments and to enhance country’s self reliance in
defence production. In a distinct case of
role reversal, the Ministry procured
outdated Missiles of 1970s vintage worth Rs 587 crore in 2008 merely to
favour Bharat Dynamics Limited. The Missiles procured were not only of
lower capabilities in terms of the range but also did not meet the Army’s long
term objective of acquiring third gene
ration missiles which were available in
the market "
And i have specially included the CAG reports on kaveri engine and the arjun mbt(full reports)

All point to the obvious that i stated above

I rest my case

 

[MilSpec]

there is a saying "alp buddhi bhayankari"

^you do realize that half of the things you mentioned have nothing to do with topic at hand.... I will again advise you to research more about production capability, production capacity, technology transfer, AOP, for HAL to understand how projects are undertaken .... Your thoughts are all over the place and you cannot drive the topic into any meaningful discourse.

Your posts are extremely offensive to professionals who know what exactly goes into managing projects that deal Supply chain with thousands of sub-systems that go into a fighter aircraft. for example, you call manufacturing of fighter jets and sub-systems as "Menial Work", Do you have any clue of what goes into such mammoth task.

I am going to make an assumption that you might be younger than me, hence a small advice... when a system doesn't work as it was envisaged, you are no supposed to break it down into smaller subsystems

I often hear half baked ideas of the so-called journalists of disinvestment in HAL into smaller section, what will that achieve. Instead of solving the problem, the common tendency among policymakers in delhi is to run away from them. And the same seems to be inculcated in today's youth who are interested in defense matters.

Lets reserve the discussion of gross corruption elected by your/our leaders for a different day and focus on the topic at hand....

What according to you is the role of rafale.

What according to you is serviceability of rafale compared to any other candidate you chose to compare.

Why do you think HAL banglore division will have any issues with producing DB Rafale? What indicates shortfall in capability (hint: please lookup difference between process capability and process capacity)

If you do want to engage in any further discourse, please stick to topic on hand without bringing in Arjun MBT or other irrelevant banter.

 

[Dillinger]

there is a saying "alp buddhi bhayankari"

^you do realize that half of the things you mentioned have nothing to do with topic at hand.... I will again advise you to research more about production capability, production capacity, technology transfer, AOP, for HAL to understand how projects are undertaken .... Your thoughts are all over the place and you cannot drive the topic into any meaningful discourse.

Your posts are extremely offensive to professionals who know what exactly goes into managing projects that deal Supply chain with thousands of sub-systems that go into a fighter aircraft. for example, you call manufacturing of fighter jets and sub-systems as "Menial Work", Do you have any clue of what goes into such mammoth task.

I am going to make an assumption that you might be younger than me, hence a small advice... when a system doesn't work as it was envisaged, you are no supposed to break it down into smaller subsystems

I often hear half baked ideas of the so-called journalists of disinvestment in HAL into smaller section, what will that achieve. Instead of solving the problem, the common tendency among policymakers in delhi is to run away from them. And the same seems to be inculcated in today's youth who are interested in defense matters.

Lets reserve the discussion of gross corruption elected by your/our leaders for a different day and focus on the topic at hand....

What according to you is the role of rafale.

What according to you is serviceability of rafale compared to any other candidate you chose to compare.

Why do you think HAL banglore division will have any issues with producing DB Rafale? What indicates shortfall in capability (hint: please lookup difference between process capability and process capacity)

If you do want to engage in any further discourse, please stick to topic on hand without bringing in Arjun MBT or other irrelevant banter.

Perhaps we need to start from the very basics, difference between a high end heavy platform and a medium platform and their associated operational cost/logistics differences.

And then we swing back to aperture size, wonder what the poor sod in a PESA equipped fighter with the extra large aperture size will feel shining the proverbial torch knowing full well that passive sensors have not only detected his emissions, ran it through a data library but also provided a fire grade solution to a BVR missile. Not a good day for the flanker driver.

As to AESA equipped super Flankers, for the love of god the Rafale has been selected based upon a very specific operational role and its place in the IAF's operational doctrine- a 500 plus force of Flankers will bleed the IAF dry.

Although I'd have to agree, engine and spectra are not going to be provided for beyond M-ToT IMO.

 

[Yeti]

Real question should be can we now afford the Rafale? in the short-term I would suggest no, BTW my first choice was to partner Saab for the Gripen and use the tech offsets for our LCA program.

 

[帅的一匹]

Real question should be can we now afford the Rafale? in the short-term I would suggest no, BTW my first choice was to partner Saab for the Gripen and use the tech offsets for our LCA program.

I think Rafale is a better choice than Grippen, cause India already had LCA. Besides, France has fully owned intellectual property of Rafale. IAF made the right choice, the problem pertaining to how much India could learn through Rafale induction. I think Spectra, AESA radar, Engine will be excluded from the TOT negotioation.

 

[sardar1987]

1)Ok first of all this distinction of medium and heavy fighters is a totall bullshit.

2)Just pick up today's newspaper and read the economics section.............let me give u some links

India 'least favourable', makes sense to exit, Nokia tells govt - Indian Express
Debt of top ten Indian groups up by 15 per cent - The Hindu
National Interest: Current accountability deficit - Indian Express

3)The fact remains that money is very short right now and will remain so till growth picks up in 2-3 years(speculative)

4)mining sector growth-negative

5)manufacturing,steel production----down by like 100% or so and right now we are net importer of steel and iron ore

So do u think its a short term problem??

Regarding rafale all i am saying is right now it is unaffordable and pls consider rupee value,so just induct pakfa's from 2016!!!
If russia dosen't require a medium fighter why do we??

And pls don't say pakfa won't be inducted in 2016,cause russian pakfa begins series production in 2016 and it will be a good platform

What u ppl are saying is fiscally impossible........just read economic section of newspaper...........groth has been slashed to 4.8%

And to the HAL GUY.........what can i say when dhruv's 90 % content is imported,u can be in ur dreams but am not

And had u read any of the cag reports i posted u would have drowned in shame,,,,,,HAL and DRDO are just guzzling up funds and importing all the stuff,assembling it and presenting it as made in india.But i am sure u will read none of it and once again divert to some other topic.

This time do read the links i have posted and after that if u still thinkwe can pay then well and good!!!

I think Rafale is a better choice than Grippen, cause India already had LCA. Besides, France has fully owned intellectual property of Rafale. IAF made the right choice, the problem pertaining to how much India could learn through Rafale induction. I think Spectra, AESA radar, Engine will be excluded from the TOT negotioation.

That is exactly the point!!

without tot of these whats with paying 100 million per plane?

Perhaps we need to start from the very basics, difference between a high end heavy platform and a medium platform and their associated operational cost/logistics differences.

And then we swing back to aperture size, wonder what the poor sod in a PESA equipped fighter with the extra large aperture size will feel shining the proverbial torch knowing full well that passive sensors have not only detected his emissions, ran it through a data library but also provided a fire grade solution to a BVR missile. Not a good day for the flanker driver.

As to AESA equipped super Flankers, for the love of god the Rafale has been selected based upon a very specific operational role and its place in the IAF's operational doctrine- a 500 plus force of Flankers will bleed the IAF dry.

Although I'd have to agree, engine and spectra are not going to be provided for beyond M-ToT IMO.

See just don't look at short term as no valuable tot will come at all,,,,so invest wisely as our debt has risen to 200 billion$ and reserves are only 277 billion$ and shrinking everyday.......mate just read 3 articles i provided in above post especially the 3rd one

 

[sardar1987]

there is a saying "alp buddhi bhayankari"

^you do realize that half of the things you mentioned have nothing to do with topic at hand.... I will again advise you to research more about production capability, production capacity, technology transfer, AOP, for HAL to understand how projects are undertaken .... Your thoughts are all over the place and you cannot drive the topic into any meaningful discourse.

Your posts are extremely offensive to professionals who know what exactly goes into managing projects that deal Supply chain with thousands of sub-systems that go into a fighter aircraft. for example, you call manufacturing of fighter jets and sub-systems as "Menial Work", Do you have any clue of what goes into such mammoth task.

I am going to make an assumption that you might be younger than me, hence a small advice... when a system doesn't work as it was envisaged, you are no supposed to break it down into smaller subsystems

I often hear half baked ideas of the so-called journalists of disinvestment in HAL into smaller section, what will that achieve. Instead of solving the problem, the common tendency among policymakers in delhi is to run away from them. And the same seems to be inculcated in today's youth who are interested in defense matters.

Lets reserve the discussion of gross corruption elected by your/our leaders for a different day and focus on the topic at hand....

What according to you is the role of rafale.

What according to you is serviceability of rafale compared to any other candidate you chose to compare.

Why do you think HAL banglore division will have any issues with producing DB Rafale? What indicates shortfall in capability (hint: please lookup difference between process capability and process capacity)

If you do want to engage in any further discourse, please stick to topic on hand without bringing in Arjun MBT or other irrelevant banter.

Everything is connected to other as money remains same...............wastage in one thing limits use in other,,,,u should know better.

Sir its my humble request that atleast u acknowledge the real problem as the defence psu's.Its impossible to increase productivity as one organization cannot handle the amount of load.

And i posted very relevant links exposing drdo completely
just look at

1)nag-----not inducted

2)lca------no


3)kaveri-------no

4)dhruv and arjun--------yes but almost all the stuff is foreign(above links of cag report)

5)akash sam is a success but its a copy of sa-6 gainful in my opinion(if u can shed some light)

In short the only 2 areas where india has done well under govt are

1)missiles
2)isro

No doubt

 

[帅的一匹]

Everything is connected to other as money remains same...............wastage in one thing limits use in other,,,,u should know better.

Sir its my humble request that atleast u acknowledge the real problem as the defence psu's.Its impossible to increase productivity as one organization cannot handle the amount of load.

And i posted very relevant links exposing drdo completely
just look at

1)nag-----not inducted

2)lca------no


3)kaveri-------no

4)dhruv and arjun--------yes but almost all the stuff is foreign(above links of cag report)

5)akash sam is a success but its a copy of sa-6 gainful in my opinion(if u can shed some light)

In short the only 2 areas where india has done well under govt are

1)missiles
2)isro

No doubt

The most important is the India goverment should tell the public what they will get in the Rafale deal, rather than make it under the table. For every penny you spend, make sure it is really worth it. India is now undergoing finanicial predicment, the goverment should be responsible for taxpayer's money.

 

[sardar1987]

The most important is the India goverment should tell the public what they will get in the Rafale deal, rather than make it under the table. For every penny you spend, make sure it is really worth it. India is now undergoing finanicial predicment, the goverment should be responsible for taxpayer's money.

Appreciate that comment man............and by the way any news about chinese aesa??

 

[Enemy]

The most important is the India goverment should tell the public what they will get in the Rafale deal, rather than make it under the table. For every penny you spend, make sure it is really worth it. India is now undergoing finanicial predicment, the goverment should be responsible for taxpayer's money.

You again started caring about India?

How about your own commie regime which is donating millions of USD to Indian universities whereas kids from villages of northwestern China have to climb up hills to attend schools built inside caves? Why don't they spend that Chinese tax payers' money in the development of Chinese universities?

Don't you believe me? See this one example.

China donates $1m for Nalanda University revival - Times Of India

WTF is wrong with you? You are still not in a position to donate money, can't you get it?

I have never seen any stupid who gives money to his enemy!

Whatever India is doing, let it do, its the problem of Indian tax payers, and they will sort it out, if they don't they will get what is coming to them. This is not Chinese tax payers' problem. So, please keep your mouth shut and watch the show!

 

[帅的一匹]

Appreciate that comment man............and by the way any news about chinese aesa??

You could check in this threadhttp://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/272997-j-11b-has-received-aesa-upgrade.html

 

[sardar1987]

You could check in this threadhttp://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/272997-j-11b-has-received-aesa-upgrade.html

Have seen the pictures but looks like a pese,,,not an aesa
can u tell the radar specs??

You again started caring about India?

How about your own commie regime which is donating millions of USD to Indian universities whereas kids from villages of northwestern China have to climb up hills to attend schools built inside caves? Why don't they spend that Chinese tax payers' money in the development of Chinese universities?

Don't you believe me? See this one example.

China donates $1m for Nalanda University revival - Times Of India

WTF is wrong with you? You are still not in a position to donate money, can't you get it?

I have never seen any stupid who gives money to his enemy!

Whatever India is doing, let it do, its the problem of Indian tax payers, and they will sort it out, if they don't they will get what is coming to them. This is not Chinese tax payers' problem. So, please keep your mouth shut and watch the show!

yaar lets keep the thread civilized and just like we don't like pakistan laughing at us.....we have no moral right to laugh at china and china at usa.
lets learn from our mistakes and stop laughing at others.peace