IRIAF | News and Discussions

[TheCamelGuy]

What about MIG-31, Mig-25's were effective in the 1991 gulf war against F-15's

 

[Hack-Hook]

What about MIG-31, Mig-25's were effective in the 1991 gulf war against F-15's

Mig25 was not effective even agaist f16
Let just not talk about f15
They only managed to down one f18 and one mq1 and that f18 was dawned before USA deploy amraam

 

[VEVAK]

1: No such ovens are needed for smart-production designs like T-72.

2: The T-72S is the only Iranian tank that can survive a TOW-2 frontal hit

3: The number of 10 Karrars per years comes from nowhere

4: If you are in the tactical situation where you were smart enough to create low threat situation for your tanks. You can use their cheap and massive firepower, with low chances for one to get hit. This is what the Hezbollah and IRGC has teach to the Syrians and their huge T-55 family fleet --> don't get yourself into a situation where you can be hit. Tanks in a spearhead high-intensity operation must be at least of the protective level of the T-72S today, all the rest is 2-3 generations of armor protection behind the T-72S.

5: We better get things right and create a spearhead armor backbone of Karrars, all the rest is hopeless, from Chieftains to M60s.

6: Iran will only start tank production if 100% of it, including the engine, is built locally. They are reaching that point by now.

7: This all is off-topic

Yes such ovens are needed & Iran has these ovens & T-72 don't use some modern method! T-90's chassis are constructed by welding together multiple sections that have also been pressure treated on top of both temp & oxidization treatment!

So yes they have the ovens large enough to cook a 1 peace tank chassis if they wanted too

There is no magical method that's going to take away from requiring both Temp & Oxidization treatment! And there is no method faster than casting for steal!

 

[raptor22]

IRIAF F 14 Flight Check After Overhaul In IACI :

 

[VEVAK]

What about MIG-31, Mig-25's were effective in the 1991 gulf war against F-15's

The discussion was about platforms not the weapons and weapon systems the Iraqi's had or didn't have on their MiG's

The reason why Air Forces are picky about the pilots they choose is because having a smart and skilled pilot goes well beyond just learning how to fly and land a fighter jet!

According to Iranian Air Force in the Iran-Iraq war most of the Iraqi pilots were badly trained to a point that they wouldn't even attempt to turn their Aircraft when they were fired upon and clearly saw missile coming at them!
I'm not saying Iraq didn't have skilled pilots (THEY DID) but by the most part most were ill trained!

A good pilot understands the strength and weaknesses of it's own & the enemies Aircraft, weapons and weapons systems and makes full use of them!

Also, a fighter is only as good as the weapon & weapon system it has onboard!

MiG-25 & MiG-31's can fly faster and higher than most other fighter and equipped with the proper weapons that means in terms of BVR you will have the advantage the higher & faster you go making them a great interceptor to have if & ONLY IF the platform is equipped with proper weapons & weapon system!

Before the revolution Russians pilots flying MiG-25's would toy with Iranian F-4 pilots all the time because they knew exactly how to use them!

 

[VEVAK]

Mig25 was not effective even agaist f16
Let just not talk about f15
They only managed to down one f18 and one mq1 and that f18 was dawned before USA deploy amraam

Weapons & Weapons systems have come a long way from the 90's!
If Iran builds a platform similar to the MiG-25's then they need to build long range high maneuvering BVR missiles to go with them with a high powered radar with look down shoot down capability!
And within ~40km equipped with modern IRST & newer IR missiles you don't need to point the nose directly at an enemy fighter anymore and you can build larger IR missiles with greater range and maneuverability capable of chasing enemy fighters

If your aircraft is faster and capable of higher altitudes with greater payload than your enemy then you build BVR & IR missiles around that capability

So I would take a MiG-25 over an F-16 any day as long as the weapons and weapons systems are designed to take full advantage of the aircrafts strengths

 

[N_Al40]

Hello all, I'm a new member to Defense PK. I hope to contribute to the forums well! More about me here (as this forum is inappropriate for personal introductions): https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/about-me.522238/

With respect to the the IRIAF, what are your thoughts on the proposed 'Saeqeh-3' project?

It certainly looks like a promising 4th generation + design; will require at least $2 billion though, and extensive R&D, along with wind tunnel tests, taxi tests, and flight tests. They will almost certainly face some bottlenecks.

However, Iranians being intelligent and given that their defense industry is not a Military Industrial Complex (MIC) that purposefully drags out fighter jet programs (F-35 for instance) to rack a profit (Lockheed Martin); this hopefully should enter service in 12 years, assuming they initiate the program of course.

This is my personal opinion, may well be wrong.

 

[TheImmortal]

At this point the only known new fighter jet program is F-313 and even that is up for debate at where it is in the development process.

So far it went from mock up to limited taxi tests in April with significant changes made to airframe from mock up version.

But we have to wait for further confirmation that this project is being taken seriously by Iran's military complex.

 

[VEVAK]

Hello all, I'm a new member to Defense PK. I hope to contribute to the forums well! More about me here (as this forum is inappropriate for personal introductions): https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/about-me.522238/

With respect to the the IRIAF, what are your thoughts on the proposed 'Saeqeh-3' project?
View attachment 430374 View attachment 430375

It certainly looks like a promising 4th generation + design; will require at least $2 billion though, and extensive R&D, along with wind tunnel tests, taxi tests, and flight tests. They will almost certainly face some bottlenecks.

However, Iranians being intelligent and given that their defense industry is not a Military Industrial Complex (MIC) that purposefully drags out fighter jet programs (F-35 for instance) to rack a profit (Lockheed Martin); this hopefully should enter service in 12 years, assuming they initiate the program of course.

This is my personal opinion, may well be wrong.

Welcome brother!

Iran has come a long way from that old design! Also, to decide to build a single engine fighter it's capabilities would have to far out way Iran's current capabilities & the aircraft would have to preform tasks that modern Iranian UAV's, Azarakhsh, Saegheh, Kowsar & precision guided missiles wouldn't be able to preform!

In a country the size of Iran Single engine fighters are only good for Close Air support with limited air to air & strike capabilities
Iran has the Azarakhsh, Saegheh, Kowsar, UCAV like the Simorgh, Shahed-129 and in the future F-313 to preform close Air Support and for strikes within ~700km of Iranian boarders Iran will likely use Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar Missiles which would be equivalent to the strike capability of a single engine fighter with combat radius of ~1000km from its base on a fighter without Air refueling capability or with limited endurance capability (meaning adding air refueling pods wouldn't effect range by that much due to endurance factors)

So what Iran needs to invest in as it pertains to fighters is a large twin engine, high powered, high endurance twin seat force multiplier for Air Superiority to defend against incoming fighters & Long range high payload strike capability to go after heavily fortified bunkers at long ranges

The reason small countries like Israel can use & upgrade single engine fighters like the F-16 for Air Superiority is mainly due to the small size of the country allowing them to fly the aircraft at a higher thrust than the aircrafts normal cruise speed to intercept and for Air to Air engagements but Iran due to it's size doesn't have that luxury & has to invest in larger force multipliers or else Iran would have to build over 1200 single engine fighters to even come close to match that capability in a country the size of Iran

Titanium is the key component that's holding Iran back from producing a capable Air Frame
For now UN has placed sanctions on Iran prohibiting it from buying OR producing it's own Titanium alloy! Because that's how scared they are of Iran's technological progress & that's how much they fear Iran's capability to one day produce a capable fighter airframe of it's own! Iran has already started laying the foundation for Titanium production & I believe they were hoping that under the JCPOA after a certain amount of time those sanction would be lifted but that may come sooner than expected

I believe the best way forward is for Iran($500 Million per year), Iraq($500 Million per year), Syria($250Milllion per year) & Lebanon($150 Million per year) to pull their resources together and invest in a Joint project to produce a capable Low RCS fighter prototype I believe if they manage to build a capable prototype other countries may join in and with more investment you can build an even more advanced production model!

 

[VEVAK]

At this point the only known new fighter jet program is F-313 and even that is up for debate at where it is in the development process.

So far it went from mock up to limited taxi tests in April with significant changes made to airframe from mock up version.

But we have to wait for further confirmation that this project is being taken seriously by Iran's military complex.

F-313 is a subsonic fighter and if the flight test are successful they will be built mainly for specific low altitude air to ground missions the Aircraft will not have the speed, maneuverability, altitude & sensors required for Air to Air missions

Iran has already announced that they have already started initial research in the development of a large fighter jet!
So the F-313 is NOT the only project!
But most likely than not R&D in a larger fighter is likely a backup plan for Iran if they are unable to get a co-production deal with the Russians or the Chinese at that point Iran would have no choice but to go at it alone!

The 1st step in producing a capable fighter airframe is to have your own Titanium Industry http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/17/485086/Iran-minerals-titanium-production-investment

And this is something Iran is clearly investing in! Within the next decade Iran's Aluminum & Titanium industry will reach a point that they can divert enough Ti alloy towards a capable fighter Airframe

In terms of power plant Iran is clearly capable of producing the J-85 so again within the next decade best case would be an engine superior to the RD-33 turbofan engine & worst case would be an upgraded version of the J-79 (reduce the number of compressors, increase the size of the 1st 3 Airflow regulators, allow for limited bypass & upgrade the combustion chamber & ball brings)

In terms of optics Iran is making good advancements so developing an IRST within the next decade would be possible

In terms of Radars Iran is making good advancements at a high rate worst case there is continued upgrade of the AWG-9 antenna and digitizing it

In terms of Air to Air weapons Iran's is continuing to make great advancements in SAM, Iran is also making advancements in thrust vectoring engines software and hardware for it's ballistic missile program which will all contribute to developing an advance Air to Air missile

Iran's ability to build PGM is a proven fact

And Iran didn't go threw the trouble of funding and building this if they weren't serious about a domestic fighter program

That's a major investment towards something some like to claim to be nothing but propaganda!

 

[N_Al40]

Welcome brother!

Iran has come a long way from that old design! Also, to decide to build a single engine fighter it's capabilities would have to far out way Iran's current capabilities & the aircraft would have to preform tasks that modern Iranian UAV's, Azarakhsh, Saegheh, Kowsar & precision guided missiles wouldn't be able to preform!

In a country the size of Iran Single engine fighters are only good for Close Air support with limited air to air & strike capabilities
Iran has the Azarakhsh, Saegheh, Kowsar, UCAV like the Simorgh, Shahed-129 and in the future F-313 to preform close Air Support and for strikes within ~700km of Iranian boarders Iran will likely use Fatteh-110, Fatteh-313 & Zolfaghar Missiles which would be equivalent to the strike capability of a single engine fighter with combat radius of ~1000km from its base on a fighter without Air refueling capability or with limited endurance capability (meaning adding air refueling pods wouldn't effect range by that much due to endurance factors)

So what Iran needs to invest in as it pertains to fighters is a large twin engine, high powered, high endurance twin seat force multiplier for Air Superiority to defend against incoming fighters & Long range high payload strike capability to go after heavily fortified bunkers at long ranges

The reason small countries like Israel can use & upgrade single engine fighters like the F-16 for Air Superiority is mainly due to the small size of the country allowing them to fly the aircraft at a higher thrust than the aircrafts normal cruise speed to intercept and for Air to Air engagements but Iran due to it's size doesn't have that luxury & has to invest in larger force multipliers or else Iran would have to build over 1200 single engine fighters to even come close to match that capability in a country the size of Iran

Titanium is the key component that's holding Iran back from producing a capable Air Frame
For now UN has placed sanctions on Iran prohibiting it from buying OR producing it's own Titanium alloy! Because that's how scared they are of Iran's technological progress & that's how much they fear Iran's capability to one day produce a capable fighter airframe of it's own! Iran has already started laying the foundation for Titanium production & I believe they were hoping that under the JCPOA after a certain amount of time those sanction would be lifted but that may come sooner than expected

I believe the best way forward is for Iran($500 Million per year), Iraq($500 Million per year), Syria($250Milllion per year) & Lebanon($150 Million per year) to pull their resources together and invest in a Joint project to produce a capable Low RCS fighter prototype I believe if they manage to build a capable prototype other countries may join in and with more investment you can build an even more advanced production model!

Good point made regarding the size of Iran and the link to engine size. Come to think of it, Saudi Arabia is a good case study: roughly Iran's size, and its air force is almost wholly made up of F-15s, no single engine F-16s (or any other for that matter).

Definitely agree on the fact that Iran needs an air superiority fighter, rather then CAS jets, whose roles are as you said, being filled by Shahed-129 UCAV, and SRBMs. However, I don't think we should expect an indigenous air-air fighter any time soon. Iran has already drafted an MOU with Russia regarding SU-30 purchases and limited TOT (production line and producing few engine components), after the conventional arms embargo is fully eliminated under UN Security Council Resolution 2231 (2020). Though I think this measure is temporary to allow IRIAF to become a lethal fighting force immediately, while working on better long-term solutions at home, so Iran is not reliant on other countries for high-tech weapon exports.

As for the afore mentioned nations coming together to work on such a program, that is currently unimaginable giving what Syria and Iraq are explicitly going through, coupled with a low technological know-how, for which Iran would have to shoulder the burden. Lebanon on the other hand is at the mercy of the US, France, and the KSA when it comes to its military. All three provide military aid of some sort, on the condition that the Lebanese armed forces buy selected and approved military equipment. Safe to say that if they invested into an Iran led fighter jet program, that military aid would be annulled; I don't think Lebanon would want that.

 

[VEVAK]

Good point made regarding the size of Iran and the link to engine size. Come to think of it, Saudi Arabia is a good case study: roughly Iran's size, and its air force is almost wholly made up of F-15s, no single engine F-16s (or any other for that matter).

Definitely agree on the fact that Iran needs an air superiority fighter, rather then CAS jets, whose roles are as you said, being filled by Shahed-129 UCAV, and SRBMs. However, I don't think we should expect an indigenous air-air fighter any time soon. Iran has already drafted an MOU with Russia regarding SU-30 purchases and limited TOT (production line and producing few engine components), after the conventional arms embargo is fully eliminated under UN Security Council Resolution 2231 (2020). Though I think this measure is temporary to allow IRIAF to become a lethal fighting force immediately, while working on better long-term solutions at home, so Iran is not reliant on other countries for high-tech weapon exports.

As for the afore mentioned nations coming together to work on such a program, that is currently unimaginable giving what Syria and Iraq are explicitly going through, coupled with a low technological know-how, for which Iran would have to shoulder the burden. Lebanon on the other hand is at the mercy of the US, France, and the KSA when it comes to its military. All three provide military aid of some sort, on the condition that the Lebanese armed forces buy selected and approved military equipment. Safe to say that if they invested into an Iran led fighter jet program, that military aid would be annulled; I don't think Lebanon would want that.

An Air superiority fighter will not be something that will be achieved anytime soon
1st thing Iran has to take care of is developing a Titanium industry & other super alloys and composites which is something Iran is currently doing and it will take at least a decade before can produce enough titanium alloy so an adequate amount can be diverted towards a fighter Air Frame production

Iran's Su-30 deal with Russia is not 100% and looking at how the U.S. is reacting to the JCPOA & how KSA is running to Russia to make large weapons deals out of fears that Iran may upgrade it's Air force with an Aircraft superior to the F-15 it is more likely that the U.S. with Saudi Arabia will pay Russia to prevent such a sale from happening so Iran can't afford not to have a back up plan! Russia knows that unlike Saudi Arabia Iran will never agree to $20 Billion USD a year weapons sales & the Russian's will happily sacrifice $1-2 Billion USD of weapons sales per year to Iran for $20 Billion USD from the Saudi's so Iran needs a back up plan

In a properly funded program it would take ~3-5 years to come up with 2 competing advanced prototype airframes and another 10 years of yearly investments to develop the infrastructure required to take a capable large twin engine fighter Airframe into production & perfect an engine to take into production so your looking at a fighter going into production between 2030-2040 in a properly funded program

For Iran the technological aspect of it would be easier than funding it on it's own that's why they would be better if they can team up with their allies & friends

Developing an Airframe prototype with off the shelf engines shouldn't take any more than 5 years plus a year of testing and fixing the flaws if the cost is divided between 3 countries Iran, Iraq & Syria it shouldn't cost any more than $100 Million per year per country to develop 2 competing prototypes that's a $1.5 program & if they are worth producing then you start investing in developing the tools and facilities required to take the aircraft into mass production

Also, there would be less chance for corruption if there are engineers and monitors from 3 countries regulating & monitoring how, where & on what the money is being spent on
And clearly such a project would have to remain covert inside Iran with Iraqi & Syria engineers and monitors moving to Iran until the prototypes are built & it would likely have to remain covert until production starts

I believe all 3 countries should be investing in joint ventures just as the EU is doing

 

[raptor22]

 

[TheImmortal]

Definitely agree on the fact that Iran needs an air superiority fighter, rather then CAS jets, whose roles are as you said, being filled by Shahed-129 UCAV, and SRBMs. However, I don't think we should expect an indigenous air-air fighter any time soon. Iran has already drafted an MOU with Russia regarding SU-30 purchases and limited TOT (production line and producing few engine components), after the conventional arms embargo is fully eliminated under UN Security Council Resolution 2231 (2020). Though I think this measure is temporary to allow IRIAF to become a lethal fighting force immediately, while working on better long-term solutions at home, so Iran is not reliant on other countries for high-tech weapon exports.

You are naive to think that it is a slam dunk the arms embargo will get lifted.

China and Russia were surprised Iran agreed to delay lifting of embargo, because by not getting it immediately it allows the West to later refuse to lift it using a whole set of excuses.

F-313 is a subsonic fighter and if the flight test are successful they will be built mainly for specific low altitude air to ground missions the Aircraft will not have the speed, maneuverability, altitude & sensors required for Air to Air missions

Iran has already announced that they have already started initial research in the development of a large fighter jet!
So the F-313 is NOT the only project!
But most likely than not R&D in a larger fighter is likely a backup plan for Iran if they are unable to get a co-production deal with the Russians or the Chinese at that point Iran would have no choice but to go at it alone!

The 1st step in producing a capable fighter airframe is to have your own Titanium Industry http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/17/485086/Iran-minerals-titanium-production-investment

And this is something Iran is clearly investing in! Within the next decade Iran's Aluminum & Titanium industry will reach a point that they can divert enough Ti alloy towards a capable fighter Airframe

In terms of power plant Iran is clearly capable of producing the J-85 so again within the next decade best case would be an engine superior to the RD-33 turbofan engine & worst case would be an upgraded version of the J-79 (reduce the number of compressors, increase the size of the 1st 3 Airflow regulators, allow for limited bypass & upgrade the combustion chamber & ball brings)

In terms of optics Iran is making good advancements so developing an IRST within the next decade would be possible

In terms of Radars Iran is making good advancements at a high rate worst case there is continued upgrade of the AWG-9 antenna and digitizing it

In terms of Air to Air weapons Iran's is continuing to make great advancements in SAM, Iran is also making advancements in thrust vectoring engines software and hardware for it's ballistic missile program which will all contribute to developing an advance Air to Air missile

Iran's ability to build PGM is a proven fact

And Iran didn't go threw the trouble of funding and building this if they weren't serious about a domestic fighter program

View attachment 430501


That's a major investment towards something some like to claim to be nothing but propaganda!

If what you say is true, then it will take Iran 10 years just to have enough technology threshold to build a large fighter jet, that doesn't include testing, prototype flight trials, etc. which could add another 10-15 years onto the development time depending on how serious priority it is given.

So you are talking about a large fighter that will be using old technology by the time it is even reaches service which could be 2+ decades away!

 

[VEVAK]

You are naive to think that it is a slam dunk the arms embargo will get lifted.

China and Russia were surprised Iran agreed to delay lifting of embargo, because by not getting it immediately it allows the West to later refuse to lift it using a whole set of excuses.



If what you say is true, then it will take Iran 10 years just to have enough technology threshold to build a large fighter jet, that doesn't include testing, prototype flight trials, etc. which could add another 10-15 years onto the development time depending on how serious priority it is given.

So you are talking about a large fighter that will be using old technology by the time it is even reaches service which could be 2+ decades away!

I'm talking about a large fighter "platform" with 2 wide diameter engines!

Platforms can be upgraded with modern weapons & sensor in time but it's important to 1st have a large enough platform that can be upgraded!

Strictly talking about platforms in a properly funded program with modern tech 5 years is more than enough to go from 0 - flight testing of 2 prototypes & you can do it at a much faster pace due to CAD & far more advanced tools
F-15, Su-27,.... were done in 5 years in the early 70's
Canada between 1953-1959 went from design to the production of 5 Avro Arrows with 0 computing power! SO NO! It's NOT going to take 10 years for prototype testing

The idea that Iran technologically needs another 10 years is absurd! You should go check out how many Iranians educated in Iran (Bachelors & Master from Iran with continued education in the U.S.) are now working at JPL

So going from 0 to conducting test of a full size flying prototype isn't going to take 5 years "IF IT IS PROPERLY FUNDED" especially on a larger airframe designed around existing parts

A lot of the components & subsystems Iran is already producing for it's F-14's can be used like landing gears, avionics, Hydraulics,... & you can easily reverse engineer F-14 ejection seats,......
And designing around existing large diameter engines allows you to speed up the process in perfecting an Airframe


If Iran chooses a large airframe around parts and subsystems used on the F-14 It will cost Iran no more than $250-$300 Million USD a year for the next 3-4 years to develop 2 competing Airframes (that includes funding going towards R&D for a production model engine as well) & they'll need 2 years of flight testing and fixing flaws with likely 4 prototypes built by the 6th year

But going from that to a production model while you build and developing the tools, facilities & personal to start serial production and continued R&D for an engine would take another 5-6 years "IF" you choose to stick with many of the sub systems Iran is already building or can reverse engineer off it's F-14's which would be the smart thing to do if you choose a large platform

Getting the Titanium required for 4 prototypes in a 4 year timespan is not an issue & you don't really need a lot of Titanium for your early prototypes but producing enough Titanium to take a large fighter in to production is currently a problem and will take time & that's not a matter of technology or knowhow it's strictly a matter of funding!

Iran is already doing this and not just with Ti but with various other super alloys so production levels will easily reach the required amount within a decade!

Your prototypes will be flying with existing engines but Iran will need 10 years of R&D to take a fairly good engine into production The life span & maintenance hours required may not be as good as Russian & American engines but that will naturally improve in time!


So in about 10-12 years time & ~$3Billion spent you can start serial production of a fighter about the size of an F-14, with an eternal weapons bay & reduced RCS using known methods and it will take another 10 years of developing weapons and upgrading the weapons systems & sensors to match current F-35's (NOT future F-35)

So yes Iran is at least 2 decades behind when it comes to sensors, weapons and weapons systems! In 20 years US F-35's & 6th Gen fighters may be equipped with directed energy weapons or at least directed energy countermeasures plus 6th gen fighters may be escorted by semi autonomous UCAV's piloted by the rear pilots of 6th Gen fighters or upgraded twin seat F-35's and by then US will likely be testing sub orbital prototypes!

If your platform is large enough building directed energy countermeasures and semi autonomous jet powered UCAV's with Air to Air capability are both within Iran's technological capability if funded to do so!

This is why I believe small manned fighters are a waist of time and money!

With a large twin seat 70ft long platform you can build Air to Air weapons with greater range and maneuverability + added laser countermeasures & the ability to control multiple cheaper UCAV which will overall reduce the number of manned fighter jet you'll need & you can make up the difference with semi autonomous jet powered UCAV with air to air capability