Iranian UAVs | News and Discussions

[shadihassan28]

Well said.

Well said.

Thank you I appreciate that and honestly I really do need to check my stuff I really do have a lot of typos but thank you very much

 

[Shawnee]

Two engine karrar with two turbojets
Rumors
Any source?

 

[Sineva]

The mortar shell which they claim to be the warhead of Shahed-136 drone:

View attachment 879487View attachment 879488View attachment 879489View attachment 879490

Wheres the rest of the debris?,theres no way that this little hole in the ground,wrecked motor and supposed warhead is all thats left,these are not that small.

Heres a pic of the yemeni variant,one can see just how big it is by comparing the size of the motor with the rest of the airframe.

Heres one that gave me a smile,its a post from a pro ukraine site:
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/russia-fired-at-the-nikopol-district-with-iranian-uavs/
I especially like this quote:
"Shahed 136 loitering munition is not highly accurate, not high-powered, not inconspicuous, yet a very unpleasant weapon."

 

[Stryker1982]

Russ allows Israel to bomb Syria and Iranians in Syria

He's right though. To make Israel happy, they ignored these attacks, now they want help.

Wheres the rest of the debris?,theres no way that this little hole in the ground,wrecked motor and supposed warhead is all thats left,these are not that small.

Heres a pic of the yemeni variant,one can see just how big it is by comparing the size of the motor with the rest of the airframe.

Heres one that gave me a smile,its a post from a pro ukraine site:
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/russia-fired-at-the-nikopol-district-with-iranian-uavs/
I especially like this quote:
"Shahed 136 loitering munition is not highly accurate, not high-powered, not inconspicuous, yet a very unpleasant weapon."

The drone can fly at an altitude between 60 to 4000 meters with a cruising speed of about 180 km/h. The UAV has a loud MD 550 or 3W engine, therefore the impact drone can be heard for kilometers.

More like 60 feet, not 60 meters, it doesn't need to fly that high.

"heard for kilometers" -> It's noisy, not that noisy!

not inconspicuous

I guess we'll see about that.

 

[Arash1991]

Two engine karrar with two turbojets
Rumors
Any source?

Interesting question. I think we can get close to an answear if we think about this by our own.
lets asume that there is a twin engine karrar. So how would the tecnical datas change? what kind of modifications would be needed and which problems and solutions would accure?

General data of karrar:

Combat Range: 1000 km
Empty Weight: 450 kg
Max Weight: 700 kg
Max Payload: 227 kg
Engine: Toloe 4
Thrust 3,7 KN
Engine Weight: 54,7 kg (par of Empty weight)

Hoch much fuel does Karrar need for these specifications?
Fuel = Max weight - (MaxPayload + EmptyWeight) => 700kg - (450+227) = 700 - 677 = 23kg Fuel

That means that Karrar needs 23 kg Fuel with a single toloe 4 Engine for a general range up to 1000 km or a combat range of 500 km.

If we add another toloe 4 Engine and want to keep the specifications, we need the same amount of fuel. That means

Added weight = EngineWeight + FuelWeight = 54,7kg + 23kg = 77,7 kg Additional weight.

If we take into account that the engine will double the thrust wich means that the Max possible Weight will also be doubles (dont consider the additional drag), we will have a max weight of 1400 kg inseat of 700 kg. The weight of the body + two engines and double fuel will be alltogether = 784,7 kg. So the new specifications will be round about: 600kg Payload instead of 227 kg.

Iran can also double or triple the range. Karrar will have 46 kg Fuel for 1000 km range. 2000 km range will need round about 100 kg fuel. That means 550 kg payload and 2000 km range.


Constructive Changes inside in the karrar:

The fuel tank will also increase its size because it have to hold not 23 kg of fuel anymore but 100 kg or 50 kg according to configuration.
Lets take a look if there are any bigger changes has to be made or if its possible to put the fuel tank in the already existing frame:

1kg jetFuel = 0,8Liter
23kgjetFuel = 18,4 liter = 18.400 cm^3 => 3rd squrt out of that and we get Tank sidelenght if tank is square: 26 cm
50kg JetFuel = 40 Liter = 40.000 cm^3 => 3rd squrt out of that and we get Tank sidelenght if tank is square: 34 cm
100kgJ etFuel = 80 Liter = 80.000 cm^3 => 3rd squrt out of that and we get Tank sidelenght if tank is square: 43 cm

Okay honestly a Tank maybe be barrel or Sphere Shaped and not square shaped. But this reference should give us only an overview about the evolution of the dimensions.
Cause there are many other subsystems inside the karrar drone and many other subsystems may have to be also doubled, for example Oil System, Fuel pumps and redunancy systems, i believe that the whole frame of the karrar will also increase. That means that the lenght or the thickness of the body will maybe increase.
This will lower the whole payload weight, increase the overall drag again and higher the fuel consumption. Taking all these facts into consideration I expect general payload of 500 kg for realistic instead of the 600kg mentioned before.

The question is: What optioins do we have with 500kg payload?

Air Defence support with 1000 km range version:

Yes It is generally possible to mount Fakour 90 Air defence Missiles on that drone and fire them from karrar, guided with radars from other aircraft or radars on the ground.
It is also possible to mount modern Jet Aircraft radars on that drone (100 - 150 kg ) with Azarakhsh or Fatter Air-Air missiles. If Infrared Missiles are used, radar is not needed and the drone can carry between 6 - 8 Air to Air missiles and Support the Air defence specially against other drone.

The Karrar is very good to use for an Air defense drones, specially against other drones because it is fast, high payload, mobile and cheap to produce.

Drones are a big problem for any air defence. Iran shot the Heron drone with a big S-200 Missile. Of course there are also valuable drones like the Global Hawk. But most drones are not valuable or costly. For example, if an enemy owns 200 Bayaktir drones and several hunderet cheaper drones with the possibility to replace them if shoot down, the defending country can not always use its S-300 or Bavar 313 or even Tabas Systems and so on. Other option is to use large and costly fighter aircraft. Another Option are CIWS. problem with CIWS is that they are not able to take the initiative in this game. They wait for enemy drones until they come and react on their actions. But first: It is simply not possible to protect every single assed in a country with sophisticated air defence.

So a twin engine Air defence Karrar drone with 500 - 600 kg payload will enable Iran to be in the initiative in any drone war.
The Karrar drone is almost the only drone wich is able to do the job fast and with big amount of missiles on board.
One single karrar can potentially destroy 6 enemy drones. 12 Karrars needed to fight more than 60 enemy drone swarms.

 

[Hack-Hook]

The mortar shell which they claim to be the warhead of Shahed-136 drone:

View attachment 879487View attachment 879488View attachment 879489View attachment 879490

they don't knew shit about designing drones , the warhead is not at head , there you can only find sensors , behind those sensors you'll find the warhead

Two engine karrar with two turbojets
Rumors
Any source?

that use fuel like crazy , its always more favourable to use more powerful engine than two engine specially on such small platform

 

[Hack-Hook]

Interesting question. I think we can get close to an answear if we think about this by our own.
lets asume that there is a twin engine karrar. So how would the tecnical datas change? what kind of modifications would be needed and which problems and solutions would accure?

General data of karrar:

Combat Range: 1000 km
Empty Weight: 450 kg
Max Weight: 700 kg
Max Payload: 227 kg
Engine: Toloe 4
Thrust 3,7 KN
Engine Weight: 54,7 kg (par of Empty weight)

Hoch much fuel does Karrar need for these specifications?
Fuel = Max weight - (MaxPayload + EmptyWeight) => 700kg - (450+227) = 700 - 677 = 23kg Fuel

That means that Karrar needs 23 kg Fuel with a single toloe 4 Engine for a general range up to 1000 km or a combat range of 500 km.

If we add another toloe 4 Engine and want to keep the specifications, we need the same amount of fuel. That means

Added weight = EngineWeight + FuelWeight = 54,7kg + 23kg = 77,7 kg Additional weight.

If we take into account that the engine will double the thrust wich means that the Max possible Weight will also be doubles (dont consider the additional drag), we will have a max weight of 1400 kg inseat of 700 kg. The weight of the body + two engines and double fuel will be alltogether = 784,7 kg. So the new specifications will be round about: 600kg Payload instead of 227 kg.

Iran can also double or triple the range. Karrar will have 46 kg Fuel for 1000 km range. 2000 km range will need round about 100 kg fuel. That means 550 kg payload and 2000 km range.


Constructive Changes inside in the karrar:

The fuel tank will also increase its size because it have to hold not 23 kg of fuel anymore but 100 kg or 50 kg according to configuration.
Lets take a look if there are any bigger changes has to be made or if its possible to put the fuel tank in the already existing frame:

1kg jetFuel = 0,8Liter
23kgjetFuel = 18,4 liter = 18.400 cm^3 => 3rd squrt out of that and we get Tank sidelenght if tank is square: 26 cm
50kg JetFuel = 40 Liter = 40.000 cm^3 => 3rd squrt out of that and we get Tank sidelenght if tank is square: 34 cm
100kgJ etFuel = 80 Liter = 80.000 cm^3 => 3rd squrt out of that and we get Tank sidelenght if tank is square: 43 cm

Okay honestly a Tank maybe be barrel or Sphere Shaped and not square shaped. But this reference should give us only an overview about the evolution of the dimensions.
Cause there are many other subsystems inside the karrar drone and many other subsystems may have to be also doubled, for example Oil System, Fuel pumps and redunancy systems, i believe that the whole frame of the karrar will also increase. That means that the lenght or the thickness of the body will maybe increase.
This will lower the whole payload weight, increase the overall drag again and higher the fuel consumption. Taking all these facts into consideration I expect general payload of 500 kg for realistic instead of the 600kg mentioned before.

The question is: What optioins do we have with 500kg payload?

Air Defence support with 1000 km range version:

Yes It is generally possible to mount Fakour 90 Air defence Missiles on that drone and fire them from karrar, guided with radars from other aircraft or radars on the ground.
It is also possible to mount modern Jet Aircraft radars on that drone (100 - 150 kg ) with Azarakhsh or Fatter Air-Air missiles. If Infrared Missiles are used, radar is not needed and the drone can carry between 6 - 8 Air to Air missiles and Support the Air defence specially against other drone.

The Karrar is very good to use for an Air defense drones, specially against other drones because it is fast, high payload, mobile and cheap to produce.

Drones are a big problem for any air defence. Iran shot the Heron drone with a big S-200 Missile. Of course there are also valuable drones like the Global Hawk. But most drones are not valuable or costly. For example, if an enemy owns 200 Bayaktir drones and several hunderet cheaper drones with the possibility to replace them if shoot down, the defending country can not always use its S-300 or Bavar 313 or even Tabas Systems and so on. Other option is to use large and costly fighter aircraft. Another Option are CIWS. problem with CIWS is that they are not able to take the initiative in this game. They wait for enemy drones until they come and react on their actions. But first: It is simply not possible to protect every single assed in a country with sophisticated air defence.

So a twin engine Air defence Karrar drone with 500 - 600 kg payload will enable Iran to be in the initiative in any drone war.
The Karrar drone is almost the only drone wich is able to do the job fast and with big amount of missiles on board.
One single karrar can potentially destroy 6 enemy drones. 12 Karrars needed to fight more than 60 enemy drone swarms.

why go to that twine engine route , with 2x tolue-4 while we have single engines that can fill that role?
and don't forgey tolue-4 is not that reliable engine and soon or later it will be replaced by something more reliable on platforms that will be used more than once

 

[Arash1991]

they don't knew shit about designing drones , the warhead is not at head , there you can only find sensors , behind those sensors you'll find the warhead


that use fuel like crazy , its always more favourable to use more powerful engine than two engine specially on such small platform

It can be cheaper if the strong engine is too sensitive or expensive or not matured enough.

Wich else engine can be fitted to karrar with low cost and reliability?
I dont think toloue 4 is unreliable. Even if it was, it should be improved by now. If this engine is unreliable than you can throw most of our drones and cruise missiles in the garbage can. This can not be the solution.

 

[Hack-Hook]

It can be cheaper if the strong engine is too sensitive or expensive or not matured enough.

the stronge engine is being used in iran heavier uavs AKA shahed-171

Wich else engine can be fitted to karrar with low cost and reliability?

if you want to put two Tolue-4 then you can go and put one Tolue-14

 

[Arash1991]

the stronge engine is being used in iran heavier uavs AKA shahed-171

if you want to put two Tolue-4 then you can go and put one Tolue-14

The analyze ive done was regarding the question from @Shawnee .I said "lets assume that there is such a project with 2 engines". So this whole analyze from me is based on the assumption that there is a twin engine project.
About Tolou 14 and so on:

Karrar drone is definitly not a high end drone comparable to Gaza or Simorgh drone. I believe Iran need Karrar for mass production. So Goal is to be cheap, easy to produce and replaceable. I think Toloue-14 may be not availiable in high numbers, and as far as I know its relatevely new and maybe not finished in development. Maybe its easier to produce as simple as possible for this class.
What is the production price and production time?

I think toloue-4 engine is very simple to produce. Only necessary Allois and so on.
is toloue 14 reliable? Because its very new.

Shahed 171 is very expensive compared to Karrar. Toloue 14 would make sense for expensive drones.
I mean, Iran can also modify T55 Tanks with active defense systems, but would it make sense?

I think in Iran there are many many defense projects wich require micro engines. We have cruise missiles, Antoship missiles, various drones. So Is we look at the engines as a resource, there are many actors in Iran wich need that resources. And these resources are not unlimited. To they need to set priority. I dont believe that Toloue 14 is produced in very high numbers. Karrar project is a comparable low cost design.

For Karrar class wich production rate could be several hundret in a year, toloue 4 would make more sense. Its maybe not efficient as Toloue 14 or toloue 10, but it works, reliable and availiable.

 

[Dariush the Great]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1570743745964027905

 

[Hack-Hook]

Karrar drone is definitly not a high end drone comparable to Gaza or Simorgh drone. I believe Iran need Karrar for mass production. So Goal is to be cheap, easy to produce and replaceable. I think Toloue-14 may be not availiable in high numbers, and as far as I know its relatevely new and maybe not finished in development. Maybe its easier to produce as simple as possible for this class.

all shahed-171 come with Tolue-14 so i say its a serially produced engine

about karrar drone vs Shahed-171 and shahed-149 drone and which one is more dvance .

let just say which is more advance , B2 , B-52, F-18

you can't mix their mission . if you want penetrate contested area you must use Shahedd-171 , if you want endurance , then shahed-171 will fail you , now if you want intercept enemy aircraft , you think whaich one have any chaance doing so , I believe its Karrar with spead 4 time of Shahed-149 and 3 time of Shahed-171

For Karrar class wich production rate could be several hundret in a year, toloue 4 would make more sense. Its maybe not efficient as Toloue 14 or toloue 10, but it works, reliable and availiable.

if you want to use karrar as cheap drone it make sense , but the roles airforce planed for karrar (use for delivering heavy bombs and used as a airdefence platform or wingman) make those version a lot more valuable and more expensive so using enggine like Toloue-10 if they plan on single engine or Tolue-14 if ever a double engine bigger version is in agenda will make sense

reliable

tolue-4 is not reliable in term of lasting , it first used for cruise missiles and suicide drones , aka one way mission . they had to change engine after several mission when the drone is supposed to come back , so the price in long term is higher

 

[Shawnee]

why go to that twine engine route , with 2x tolue-4 while we have single engines that can fill that role?
and don't forgey tolue-4 is not that reliable engine and soon or later it will be replaced by something more reliable on platforms that will be used more than once

Two jahesh 700

3 Mach
Rumors

 

[Hack-Hook]

Two jahesh 700

3 Mach
Rumors

I don't think Jahesh 700 is designed for such speeds , but you must ask some one who is more knowledgable in that field
also the engine is around half a meter wide , puting two of them in a drone will make tail at least one meter wide . such drone can't be called karrar anymore , its a new drone and far bigger one

 

[BlessedKingOfLonging]

Two jahesh 700

3 Mach
Rumors

Don't you need a ramjet design to reach Mach 3?