Iranian Air Defense Systems

[mohsen]

Is this guy hearing himself?

You can't save money on an F-14 by making Karrars because Karrar can not do any of the things F-14 can.

This is a common form of nonsense in Turkey too, people comparing TB2 with F-16.

TB2 can drop a 22kg bomb that hits the ground at around 250km/h, F-16 can drop a 1000 kilogram bunker buster that hits the ground at nearly mach 2. These things arent comparable even if we reduced the fighter jet to just a plane that drops bombs.




while it's nice that Karrar can launch an AAM, launch parameters will never be the same as F-14, the missile will fly slower because it's being thrown by a slower platform, it doesn't have F-14s radar, it doesn't have F-14s maneuverability. These are desperate last-ditch weapons of a country that forsees the loss of its airspace.

I'm not shitting on Karrar, it's a novel system if it works but the perception of it at least by Iranian "experts" seems a bit strange.

He means in peace time, its cheaper to use karrar for intercepting foreign birds in our ADIZ, and we have already used Karrar for several times to repel American's ISR planes in Persian gulf and strait of Hormuz.

 

[LegionnairE]

He means in peace time, its cheaper to use karrar for intercepting foreign birds in our ADIZ, and we have already used Karrar for several times to repel American's ISR planes in Persian gulf and strait of Hormuz.

Ok, now it makes a bit more sense.

Spare parts of F-14 aren't easy to come by, flight hours of that plane are precious

 

[jauk]

I didn't come here for Turkey vs Iran urine racing.

you'd call me a copycat but I would congratulate Iran if you could make a fighter UAV like Kızılelma.
View attachment 958444

you know, this is certainly a challenge for F-14 and we could argue which one is cheaper or better and whatnot.

Iran doesn’t want that second hand garbage. I encourage Türkiye to start innovation and stop playing with herself. Getting out of the path of EU’s urine is especially suggested.

 

[WagmutJ]

Blow the can of zionist tear

 

[LegionnairE]

Iran doesn’t want that second hand garbage. I encourage Türkiye to start innovation and stop playing with herself.

Is that why you bought second hand Yak-130? Just shut up please

 

[jauk]

Is that why you bought second hand Yak-130? Just shut up please

 

[TheImmortal]

Just since the K-4. prior to that, our missiles relied on terminal guidance, hence the use of fins.

Qiam 1 warhead Where is the fin Mohsen?

HINT: The entire body doesn’t have fins.

When our commanders say, for the first time in K-4 missile, all guidance functions are performed in space, to neutralize the possible EW, then it means EW has been possible in prior missiles. EW means manipulating the positioning signals (whether land or space based), otherwise gyroscopes are immune.

EW =/= GPS spoofing. You cannot GPS spoof in space. Stop the bullshit.

You can’t even lock Iran out of GPS. There is 31 GPS satellites - you only need 4 to get an accurate reading. There is BILLIONS of devices pinging those 31 satellites a day. You are telling me US can tell which satellites a single missile is pinging?

Using GPS for positioning has extra advantage, as those in the receiving point of our missiles are using the same signal, and it will limit their use of jammers. otherwise news like this in northern Iraq will become a habit in their territories.

Those jammers are on the ground and don’t reach space.

Is this guy hearing himself?
You can't save money on an F-14 by making Karrars because Karrar can not do any of the things F-14 can.

I said for routine interception.

I didn’t say Karrar has the same capability as F-14. Reading comprehension at all time lows.

If our gyroscopes were that accurate then we wouldn't turn the K-4's guidance system off in terminal phase, benefits would have been extra maneuvering against enemy's defenses and eliminating weather factor. but no, we turn it off fearing the EW. it means one thing, that we rely on positioning signals, not gyroscopes.

Just stop. You sound absurd right now. K-4 doesn’t “turn off“ its guidance system. It literally doesn’t have ENDO-ATSOMPHERIC way to maneuver. Do you understand physics?

Let me break it down for you In order to maneuver inside the atmosphere you need either:

• fins (like Fattah or Emad or Sejill)
• Gas thrusters
• Both

K-4 does not have an advanced warhead. I can guarantee you K-5 will have a way more advanced warhead. Right now K-4 would likely carry sub munitions to bomb large airbases and other HVT targets using its massive payload.

K-4 has a dummy warhead + exo thrusters meaning the warhead lines up the re-entry telemetry based INS and it’s onboard computer in space using its thrusters and than THATS IT. Not because it “shuts off its guidance system”. But because it has no way to maneuver in the atmosphere when it lacks fins (mechanical) or thrusters (pressurized gas)

Hence why K-4 has a higher CEP (<50 meters) than any other modern BM. The reason it’s CEP isn’t 250+ meters like early 00’s Shahab-3 is due to 1) laser fiber optic gyroscope 2) improved INS/guidance kit 3) datalink mid course correct via GLNSS or any positioning satellite system


I don’t know why you think K-4 is so advanced it literally is 2010 era tech. Just unveiled recently.

The latest (unveiled) tech:
1) Fattah which uses fins and motor to provide lift during HGV maneuvers (guess it isn’t susceptible to your Hollywood voo doo EW magic)
2) classified Qiam/Sejill warhead seen in war games that is not only finless but uses gas thrusters to deviate its trajectory during Re-entry allowing significant maneuvering according to Patarames

 

[ReasonableStar75]

I didn't come here for Turkey vs Iran urine racing.

you'd call me a copycat but I would congratulate Iran if you could make a fighter UAV like Kızılelma.
View attachment 958444

you know, this is certainly a challenge for F-14 and we could argue which one is cheaper or better and whatnot.

do you really believe kizilelma is a fifth generation war plane? this is ridiculous. Iran F-14 would destroy this thing easily with fakour air to air missiles from miles away...

Really, please study what you say.... Kizilelma does not serve for TUrkiyeh, this platform is for sales to countries does not grasp military technologies.

 

[TheImmortal]

@mohsen @immortal

Neutrino’s analysis on the high tech gyroscopes Iran has developed and installed in it’s precision guided missiles. He seems to be implying these bring high accuracy even for long distances. Especially applicable in polluted EW environments.

It’s well known Iran’s fiber optic gyroscopes lead to a quantum leap in accuracy. Mohsen wants us all to believe that it was because us cavemen Iranians finally discovered GPS. As if GPS didn’t exist prior to 2010 and Iran couldn’t incorporate it.

It’s simply laughable. No sane military power would rely on its enemy satellites to primarily power its missiles.

Lastly look at S-136, it has 4 GPS/GLNSS you know why? That is because each receiver can reach out to a separate set of satellites to gain positoning data. So that means 2 receivers can ping GPS satellites and 2 can ping GLNSS satellites and then redundancy checks are done.

This prevents two things jamming - since you need to jam 4 receivers not 1 and also spoofing since system will realize it is being spoofed by discrepancies in location coordinates from different sources. Not a single S-136 has been jammed or spoofed successfully or else Ukraine would be staging a world parade for its accomplishment.

Now this is a 20K drone using off the shelf parts from Alibaba/Ebay. Imagine what a $250K-$1M Iranian BM uses. A single Iranian BM can do a quick GPS + GLNSS + Beidou check to make sure it isn’t facing EW. This thinking that it can ONLY use GPS is laughable.

K-4 is one of Iran’s least accurate warheads its CEP is <50M. It’s old design trust me. Its only claim to fame is axis thrusters to re-align in space. After that it’s dummy RV. However without fins or endo thrusters it wouldn’t be able to re-align even if wanted once inside the atmosphere. Unless Iran is hiding that capability from us.

I expect the warhead to be replaced with either a DF-17 HGV warhead or Fattah warhead in the future. There can also be the first Iranian bus warhead with multiple RVs since the missile has such a high payload capability ir could carry 3 x 500KG RVs in future.

Stay tuned.

 

[LegionnairE]

do you really believe kizilelma is a fifth generation war plane? this is ridiculous. Iran F-14 would destroy this thing easily with fakour air to air missiles from miles away...

Really, please study what you say.... Kizilelma does not serve for TUrkiyeh, this platform is for sales to countries does not grasp military technologies.

This is a valid discussion to have, a study conducted by a couple of retired Turkish Air Force generals showed that theoratically it's very much a threat for any 4th gen fighter, and later variants of Kızılelma could even pose a threat to other fifth gen fighters like the F35. I can link the study here if you sepak Turkish, you can read it.

 

[TheImmortal]

that theoratically it's very much a threat for any 4th gen fighter

1) depends on A2A missile

2) depends on RCS

3) depends on its radar

4) depends on its strength of its military data-link. If operator gets jammed/EW out of the connection then drone goes into passive mode

I like the concept of Kilizema. Iran decided to use the F-313 proof of concept to make its own. I’ll wait to see before making judgement. A drone fighter jet is only as good as its radar/A2A/staying undetected.

Against 5th Gen fighters no one knows since we don’t even know how manned 5th Gen fighters will do against each other. All theoretical. Radar detection drops to <50KM for a F-35 level cross section unless F-35 allows itself to get illuminated from a bad angle.

 

[LegionnairE]

1) depends on A2A missile

2) depends on RCS

3) depends on its radar

4) depends on its strength of its military data-link. If operator gets jammed/EW out of the connection then drone goes into passive mode

I like the concept of Kilizema. Iran decided to use the F-313 proof of concept to make its own. I’ll wait to see before making judgement. A drone fighter jet is only as good as its radar/A2A/staying undetected.

Against 5th Gen fighters no one knows since we don’t even know how manned 5th Gen fighters will do against each other. All theoretical. Radar detection drops to <50KM for a F-35 level cross section unless F-35 allows itself to get illuminated from a bad angle.

It's a bit of a read, I'll link it here, I know many Iranians speak Turkish. I suspect @aryobarzan could help you.

Beyazıt Karataş yazdı: Dikkat Kızılelma çıkabilir

Emekli Hava Pilot Tümgeneral Beyazıt Karataş ve Makine Mühendisi Fazıl Altay yazdı...

www.veryansintv.com

Turkey obviously won't solely rely on Kızılelma, but it will be networked with TFX and Anka 3. There's a great emphasis on Datalink capabilities, encryption etc.

We pretty much know what the radar will be, it will be a GaN based AESA radar, just a smaller version of the one on the TFX but the missiles and RCS are subject to change. I think the RCS will be really reduced by the time we get to Block 2

 

[TheImmortal]

It's a bit of a read, I'll link it here, I know many Iranians speak Turkish. I suspect @aryobarzan could help you.

Beyazıt Karataş yazdı: Dikkat Kızılelma çıkabilir

Emekli Hava Pilot Tümgeneral Beyazıt Karataş ve Makine Mühendisi Fazıl Altay yazdı...

www.veryansintv.com

Turkey obviously won't solely rely on Kızılelma, but it will be networked with TFX and Anka 3. There's a great emphasis on Datalink capabilities, encryption etc.

We pretty much know what the radar will be, it will be a GaN based AESA radar, just a smaller version of the one on the TFX but the missiles and RCS are subject to change. I think the RCS will be really reduced by the time we get to Block 2

If RCS can be brought below <.5m2 and equipped with a BVR with 50-100KM range then it is threat against any 4th Gen if it’s radar is what you say. Engine(s) need to allow at least Mach 1 to be able to intercept at somewhat acceptable rate. Chinese Darksword UAV is currently at that speed. Range at least 1000KM to prevent decent sorties.

What is the cost produce this? That is also key. Needs to be <$15M to be viable, under <$10M would be even better.

It’s a good first concept either way.

 

[LegionnairE]

If RCS can be brought below <.5m2 and equipped with a BVR with 50-100KM range then it is threat against any 4th Gen if it’s radar is what you say. Engine(s) need to allow at least Mach 1 to be able to intercept at somewhat acceptable rate. Chinese Darksword UAV is currently at that speed. Range at least 1000KM to prevent decent sorties.

What is the cost produce this? That is also key. Needs to be <$15M to be viable, under <$10M would be even better.

It’s a good first concept either way.

At Kızılelma block 2 stage, there will be the same dielectric radar absorbing panels as the ones used on TFX. We're not even at block 0 but we're planning ahead which is good. Authors of this study, (which it seems you didn't read) are expecting 0.005m2 frontal RCS at that point. I'm copy pasting the relevant image here

AAM missile carried will be Bozdoğan, which is comparable to AIM-120C-8 in range and technology but this is subject to change of course. I'm expecting a ramjet powered missile at some point.

The cost is impossible to predict but I will be happy with 20-25 million $

I almost forgot, your question about the engines is answered here

Block 2 will be powered by TF10000 (which will most likely be a twin engine configuration) should be able to keep up with TFX though the initial production will be subsonic, non afterburning variant.

Even though we still have a lot of ways to go, to see it flying next to an F-16 was great

Only 2 years left, it's exciting.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Is this guy hearing himself?

You can't save money on an F-14 by making Karrars because Karrar can not do any of the things F-14 can.

This is a common form of nonsense in Turkey too, people comparing TB2 with F-16.

TB2 can drop a 22kg bomb that hits the ground at around 250km/h, F-16 can drop a 1000 kilogram bunker buster that hits the ground at nearly mach 2. These things arent comparable even if we reduced the fighter jet to just a plane that drops bombs.




while it's nice that Karrar can launch an AAM, launch parameters will never be the same as F-14, the missile will fly slower because it's being thrown by a slower platform, it doesn't have F-14s radar, it doesn't have F-14s maneuverability. These are desperate last-ditch weapons of a country that forsees the loss of its airspace.

I'm not shitting on Karrar, it's a novel system if it works but the perception of it at least by Iranian "experts" seems a bit strange.

The question is not saving money by replacing them.
Here our air Defence unit wanted a drone launched air Defence to use against threats that did need interception by a full fledged air superiority aircraft or interceptor.
They used karrar drone because it's our fastest drone and have a flight radius of around 900 km and can de that while carrying an AD-08 under it's belly.
They say it's cheaper to use it against drones and helicopters than using manned aircraft to do so.