Iranian Air Defense Systems

[Ich]

F-35 is shit. Even dumb german politicians say it off the record.

 

[Flotilla]

Yeah, germans are probably buying amerika suport. And I am afraid after germans, spaniards will do... damn fighter mafia.

 

[BlessedKingOfLonging]

F-35 is shit. Even dumb german politicians say it off the record.

Yeah, germans are probably buying amerika suport. And I am afraid after germans, spaniards will do... damn fighter mafia.

Aren't Germany, Spain and France collaborating on a 6th generation fighter jet program?

 

[Ich]

Aren't Germany, Spain and France collaborating on a 6th generation fighter jet program?

As far as i know it is canceled.

 

[BlessedKingOfLonging]

As far as i know it is canceled.

What exactly happened?

 

[Ich]

What exactly happened?

Well, "exactly" happened i cant say cause "they" dont say. But the official status is "There is no alternative; it must work!". Well, thats the old phrase for "its over". It is all about money and the pointless "Who is the Boss of the old Franken-Brothers?" (you know east-Franken and west-Franken? Well since then...). Normally the tandem would work cause of "throw in the money!", as it was with Airbus. But at the moment the EU-Countries loose about 1 trillion Dollar in 2022 and more in the next years cause of "russia-sanctions" and the energy-crises...Bloomberg wrote it some days ago after calculation. So it is cancelled cause of lack of money.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Well, "exactly" happened i cant say cause "they" dont say. But the official status is "There is no alternative; it must work!". Well, thats the old phrase for "its over". It is all about money and the pointless "Who is the Boss of the old Franken-Brothers?" (you know east-Franken and west-Franken? Well since then...). Normally the tandem would work cause of "throw in the money!", as it was with Airbus. But at the moment the EU-Countries loose about 1 trillion Dollar in 2022 and more in the next years cause of "russia-sanctions" and the energy-crises...Bloomberg wrote it some days ago after calculation. So it is cancelled cause of lack of money.

my guess is aside from money the exact problem that resulted France to pull out of Eurofighter happened here . France requirement for the aircraft is probably different from the others and its probably nearly impossible to build something that satisfy everyone.

 

[Horse_Rider]

F-35 is shit. Even dumb german politicians say it off the record.

Yet you are buying it? It seems majority of big countries in NATO will have it. I don't understand, you guys have a very large collective defense budget, where it a 5th gen EU platform?

 

[gambit]

Sure, and Captain Maverick was sitting in that F-35 flying over Iran just for fun. Imagine believing a F-35 could enter Iranian airspace undetected and even fly over Tehran. Amazing how the F-35 is able to defy the laws of physics.

Actually, the F-35 would be obeying the laws of physics. Remember when an F-22 flew with the Iranian F-4s and surprised them? The reality is that the F-22 surprised Iranian ground radars, not the Iranian F-4s.

Aside from AWACS, airborne radars are limited to frontal view, simply because the array is mounted in the front end of the jet. It means that for air defense, the ground control intercept (GCI) method is the best.

NORAD Control Center - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NORAD Control Centers (NCCs) were Cold War "joint direction centers"[2] for command, control, and coordination of ground-controlled interception by both USAF Air Defense Command (ADC) and Army Air Defense Command (ARADCOM).​

Iranian air defense is no different. I used NORAD to remove any suspicious of deception.

What GCI does is direct interceptors to the air location of suspicious targets, then the interceptors make VISUAL identification of whatever they see. So when Iranian ground radars detected the US drone, they directed Iranian F-4s to intercept. What Iranian GCI controllers saw were three targets when there was a fourth body -- the F-22. In other words, Iranian air defense radars saw three bodies when there were PHYSICALLY four. If the F-22 flew close enough to check out the armaments carried by the Iranian F-4s, the F-22 was definitely inside the Iranian GCI radar beam.

Even if the platform is 'stealth', it does not mean the pilot have a license to be careless about radar nets. When I was active duty and on the F-111 stationed at RAF Upper Heyford, our squadrons, along with F-111S from RAF Lakenheath, often trained to avoid radar detection. Once, I was in the WSO seat over the Channel at 50 ft altitude in TFR hard ride. From the WSO seat, I tuned the TFR so that it would pick up even the waves. It was a hard flight because our two-ship flight were flying the waves as if they were land terrain features. We successfully 'attacked' France when they requested our assistance in testing their new air defense radar.

The B-2, F-117, F-22, and F-35 pilots are no different. Their mission plannings would include avoidance of radar nets as much as possible. Being low radar observable means that if you have to be in a radar beam, you would have enough time to exit the situation without being tagged as a target. It does not mean you can fly as if nothing happened. But in this particular situation, the F-22 pilot did not cared. The fact that he flew close enough to the Iranian F-4s means he knew he would be inside the Iranian GCI radar beam, but he also knew that being that close to the F-4s, he would be essentially invisible to the Iranian ground radars. Keep in mind that the American drone was physically smaller than the F-22 but the Iranian GCI radar saw only three, not four, targets, when all of them were flying in a STEADY STATE FORMATION.

If an Israeli F-35 was inside Iranian airspace, most likely the Iranians would not know it.

 

[Messerschmitt]

Actually, the F-35 would be obeying the laws of physics. Remember when an F-22 flew with the Iranian F-4s and surprised them? The reality is that the F-22 surprised Iranian ground radars, not the Iranian F-4s.

Aside from AWACS, airborne radars are limited to frontal view, simply because the array is mounted in the front end of the jet. It means that for air defense, the ground control intercept (GCI) method is the best.

NORAD Control Center - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NORAD Control Centers (NCCs) were Cold War "joint direction centers"[2] for command, control, and coordination of ground-controlled interception by both USAF Air Defense Command (ADC) and Army Air Defense Command (ARADCOM).​

Iranian air defense is no different. I used NORAD to remove any suspicious of deception.

What GCI does is direct interceptors to the air location of suspicious targets, then the interceptors make VISUAL identification of whatever they see. So when Iranian ground radars detected the US drone, they directed Iranian F-4s to intercept. What Iranian GCI controllers saw were three targets when there was a fourth body -- the F-22. In other words, Iranian air defense radars saw three bodies when there were PHYSICALLY four. If the F-22 flew close enough to check out the armaments carried by the Iranian F-4s, the F-22 was definitely inside the Iranian GCI radar beam.

Even if the platform is 'stealth', it does not mean the pilot have a license to be careless about radar nets. When I was active duty and on the F-111 stationed at RAF Upper Heyford, our squadrons, along with F-111S from RAF Lakenheath, often trained to avoid radar detection. Once, I was in the WSO seat over the Channel at 50 ft altitude in TFR hard ride. From the WSO seat, I tuned the TFR so that it would pick up even the waves. It was a hard flight because our two-ship flight were flying the waves as if they were land terrain features. We successfully 'attacked' France when they requested our assistance in testing their new air defense radar.

The B-2, F-117, F-22, and F-35 pilots are no different. Their mission plannings would include avoidance of radar nets as much as possible. Being low radar observable means that if you have to be in a radar beam, you would have enough time to exit the situation without being tagged as a target. It does not mean you can fly as if nothing happened. But in this particular situation, the F-22 pilot did not cared. The fact that he flew close enough to the Iranian F-4s means he knew he would be inside the Iranian GCI radar beam, but he also knew that being that close to the F-4s, he would be essentially invisible to the Iranian ground radars. Keep in mind that the American drone was physically smaller than the F-22 but the Iranian GCI radar saw only three, not four, targets, when all of them were flying in a STEADY STATE FORMATION.

If an Israeli F-35 was inside Iranian airspace, most likely the Iranians would not know it.

Based on reports from 2013 and USAF claims, which can't be verified. Even if the story were true, Iran's AD posture has improved significantly since the 2010s. The country is flooded with long-wavelength LR EW radars now and has capable ADS close to the border with powerful EO/IIR sensors (e.g. 3rd Khordad). A F-22 or F-35 attempting to enter Iranian airspace would likely be exposed to emissions by these lower band radars from multiple angles. Since "stealth" fighters are not optimized against longer wavelength radars and the fighters wouldn't face most radars from an optimal angle (large country, radars spread all over the place), they won't be invisible to Iran's IADS, as shown in this open-source model. The point wasn't that "stealth" is "crap" or doesn't play a role but that a F-35 entering Iranian airspace undetected and carrying out strikes on HVTs undisturbed before returning home will only work in Hollywood.

 

[Ich]

Yet you are buying it? It seems majority of big countries in NATO will have it. I don't understand, you guys have a very large collective defense budget, where it a 5th gen EU platform?

I do not buying. I would prefer that all german politicians get a shot in the head. No one in Germany is buying the F-35. The US ordered Germany to buy them. Ordered in the same way they explode Nordstream 1+2 and over the decades lots of other things.

 

[Muhammed45]

Actually, the F-35 would be obeying the laws of physics. Remember when an F-22 flew with the Iranian F-4s and surprised them? The reality is that the F-22 surprised Iranian ground radars, not the Iranian F-4s.

Aside from AWACS, airborne radars are limited to frontal view, simply because the array is mounted in the front end of the jet. It means that for air defense, the ground control intercept (GCI) method is the best.

NORAD Control Center - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NORAD Control Centers (NCCs) were Cold War "joint direction centers"[2] for command, control, and coordination of ground-controlled interception by both USAF Air Defense Command (ADC) and Army Air Defense Command (ARADCOM).​

Iranian air defense is no different. I used NORAD to remove any suspicious of deception.

What GCI does is direct interceptors to the air location of suspicious targets, then the interceptors make VISUAL identification of whatever they see. So when Iranian ground radars detected the US drone, they directed Iranian F-4s to intercept. What Iranian GCI controllers saw were three targets when there was a fourth body -- the F-22. In other words, Iranian air defense radars saw three bodies when there were PHYSICALLY four. If the F-22 flew close enough to check out the armaments carried by the Iranian F-4s, the F-22 was definitely inside the Iranian GCI radar beam.

Even if the platform is 'stealth', it does not mean the pilot have a license to be careless about radar nets. When I was active duty and on the F-111 stationed at RAF Upper Heyford, our squadrons, along with F-111S from RAF Lakenheath, often trained to avoid radar detection. Once, I was in the WSO seat over the Channel at 50 ft altitude in TFR hard ride. From the WSO seat, I tuned the TFR so that it would pick up even the waves. It was a hard flight because our two-ship flight were flying the waves as if they were land terrain features. We successfully 'attacked' France when they requested our assistance in testing their new air defense radar.

The B-2, F-117, F-22, and F-35 pilots are no different. Their mission plannings would include avoidance of radar nets as much as possible. Being low radar observable means that if you have to be in a radar beam, you would have enough time to exit the situation without being tagged as a target. It does not mean you can fly as if nothing happened. But in this particular situation, the F-22 pilot did not cared. The fact that he flew close enough to the Iranian F-4s means he knew he would be inside the Iranian GCI radar beam, but he also knew that being that close to the F-4s, he would be essentially invisible to the Iranian ground radars. Keep in mind that the American drone was physically smaller than the F-22 but the Iranian GCI radar saw only three, not four, targets, when all of them were flying in a STEADY STATE FORMATION.

If an Israeli F-35 was inside Iranian airspace, most likely the Iranians would not know it.

Question remains, would have USA allowed Israeli F-35 to risk a crash in Iranian airspace?

For sure, F-35 is not more stealthier than F-22, you maybe able to fool your European customers but not us. F-35 is obviously inferior to F-22 from every point of view. The engines, avionics, stealthy etc.

Iranian general prior to the Israeli claims, announced that they had detected F-22 on their radar scopes in Persian Gulf. So it wouldn't be hard to detect Israeli F-35 even if the pilot followed every instruction of remaining undetected.

Let me tell you an other thing, F-35 is so garbage that USA doesn't give a hoot if it flies over a territory that lacks strategic depth. Russians can easily study it from Syrian bases using their advanced air defense systems. In Russian case, F-35 is not something to be afraid of. It is already evaluated over the occupied Palestine's airspace.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Question remains, would have USA allowed Israeli F-35 to risk a crash in Iranian airspace?

For sure, F-35 is not more stealthier than F-22, you maybe able to fool your European customers but not us. F-35 is obviously inferior to F-22 from every point of view. The engines, avionics, stealthy etc.

Iranian general prior to the Israeli claims, announced that they had detected F-22 on their radar scopes in Persian Gulf. So it wouldn't be hard to detect Israeli F-35 even if the pilot followed every instruction of remaining undetected.

Let me tell you an other thing, F-35 is so garbage that USA doesn't give a hoot if it flies over a territory that lacks strategic depth. Russians can easily study it from Syrian bases using their advanced air defense systems. In Russian case, F-35 is not something to be afraid of. It is already evaluated over the occupied Palestine's airspace.

These are some silly questions. If the US can send in F-22 into the Iranian airspace many times I think they will use the F-35 whenever they need to. After all, it's an offensive weapon system designed to fight. F-35 is also not "inferior" to the F-22.. In many ways, the F-35 uses more advanced tech than the F-22 as it was build after about two decades, but then there are a few things kept away from people's view limited to only F-22 due to it's role, Iranian AD is just as ineffective against the F-35 than it was against the F-22.

I think I've read reports that Israel has used the F-35 already a few times to penetrate the Iranian airspace. I also read on an Israeli forum that there were constant combat missions being flown by the F-35's and that did include deep penetration into Iranian airspace for a future conflict. Seems like they've created a full map of ingress and egress when need be.

 

[Ich]

These are some silly questions. If the US can send in F-22 into the Iranian airspace many times I think they will use the F-35 whenever they need to. After all, it's an offensive weapon system designed to fight. F-35 is also not "inferior" to the F-22.. In many ways, the F-35 uses more advanced tech than the F-22 as it was build after about two decades, but then there are a few things kept away from people's view limited to only F-22 due to it's role, Iranian AD is just as ineffective against the F-35 than it was against the F-22.

I think I've read reports that Israel has used the F-35 already a few times to penetrate the Iranian airspace. I also read on an Israeli forum that there were constant combat missions being flown by the F-35's and that did include deep penetration into Iranian airspace for a future conflict. Seems like they've created a full map of ingress and egress when need be.

You mean that F-22 in 2013? Yes, at that time Iran radar wasnt that good what it is today.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Actually, the F-35 would be obeying the laws of physics. Remember when an F-22 flew with the Iranian F-4s and surprised them?

We are still waiting for any evidence of it, just like evidence of those F35 fly over Tehran or USA disabled our air defense after Ain-al-Asad or that truck you parked on deck of your carrier actually managed to shoot down our drones