Iran Wanted the Soviet MiG-29 Fighter Jet as its Next Primary Fighter

[Hack-Hook]

Yep, that makes no sense to me , saddam of Iraq tried missile weapons didn’t change anything in his war

saddam missiles had a cep of around let say > 1000m
but well we don't rely on missile around , our strategy is staying out of the war.

 

[kingQamaR]

without sanctions probably not, they are very competent but with sanctions
it'll be a tough ride, I really hope they somehow convince either China or Russia to give them top of the line jets
A shrewd Iranian diplomat is needed where not all his focus is on nuclear deal but to make bilateral relationship strong enough with other strong nations that they can overlook Israel, GCC, west concerns
Iran also needs to combine diplomatic efforts with international lawfare as they are facing lawfare from the most power countries on earth

he brings up Iran as an example on brutal international lawfare can potentially be and we are facing something abiet on a much smaller level

I think they are just being to fussy when it comes to none western suppliers. Turkey bought Chinese version of s400 got in to trouble by USA and nato, tehran can improve there areas and bits in the army / Air Force they choose not do so. Accurate post by a Iranian poster above nicely explained on here the west sanctions on there equipment after 1979 I reckon has clouded or effected in buying abroad all they doing in-house not sure that’s going pay off

 

[zartosht]

once people see aircraft for what they actually are: Flying missile carriers

Then Irans strategy makes complete sense, and this strategy comes from bitter experience...

Iran has 2 choices right now with its limited resources:

1. Beg a foreign country for expensive planes.
2. Beg that foreign country for missiles and accompanying services for decades to come.
3. Having your entire national defense strategy in the hands of foreigners
4. Pray to god that on the day you actually need the planes, The conflict geopolitically aligns with the country that sold you the plane, and doesnt cut you off and makes your 300 billion dollar investment useless overnight,
5. Build massive, static, vulnerable infastracture like large airbases to give juicy targets for the enemy to easily cripple you.
6. Pray to god the enemy doesnt have a strong air-defense, as this would cause unacceptable casualties to any modern air force (look at the azerbaijan armenia war, and how useless the azeri airforce was.. it pretty much didnt even participate).
7. Face an enemy that has absolutely 0 air defense and your airforce has free reign to push buttons.
8. Make sure no harm comes to your expensive, precious planes costing hundreds of millions a peice, Their large accompanying infastracture, and a whole army of very specialized, hard to replace crews like pilots/mechanics.
9. Make absolute sure you avoid war with a serious country with air superiority (US, China , Russia) . As your entire air force will get slaughtered before it knows what hit it, regardless of how many hundreds of billions you throw in the toilet.
10. Pray that the country you begged and bought planes from, doesnt turn around and sell something better to your mortal enemy, forcing you into an eternal auction of trying to outbid the enemy and buy the latest crap.

choice #2: Go for missiles

1. you have complete control over the production of every single component.
2. You spends 1/10th of the money to build a far more survivable and potent force.
3. Every single dollar spent stays and gets spent in the local economy, instead of paying foreign countries to keep their industrial superiority on your dime.
4. It keeps a large, highly educated, and valuable workforce busy with work.
5. survivability
6. survivability
7.survivability
8. Did i mention survivablity? cause it is very very VERRRRRY important in war that saddam hussein learned the hard way.
9. i could literally go on and on about the pros of missiles.

while having planes doesnt hurt as they serve some purpose (mainly patrols and show of force). For Iran, whos enemies are a 100x times richer and better resourced, it doesnt make any sense at this current time to make a huge investment.

A minor upgrade of a few dozen planes for patrols wouldnt hurt though.

 

[TheImmortal]

China has fighters /.lots of other military products it now produces

So why do Middle Easterners always run to Russia for

Would you buy fighters from a country who just started (relatively speaking in comparison to Russia and US) it’s own fighters giving uncertainty to engine life span, maintenance needs, and performance or would you go with a tried and true company that has been around for 100 years and has a clearly demonstrated track record and whose platform your engineers are familiar with?

That's bound to change soon, since Pakistan has a lot of Chinese tech

And what has that proven? Nothing. Pakistan has a lot of untested Chinese tech.

Iran’s missiles - tested in live combat

Iran’s UAVs - tested in live combat and against western air defenses and radars (see UAE and Saudi Arabia attacks)

Iran’s anti air missiles- both 351 and Sayyad have brought down advanced UAVs like Global Hawk or Chinese Drones like Loong (spelling?).

No one is saying Chinese tech isn’t capable, but to spend $5B+ on advanced fighters that you have zero track record of and your engineers are not familiar with the Chinese way of engineering is not a smart move.

WS-10 is a very new engine whose life span and capabilities are quite unknown where as AL family of jet engines has been around for over 40 years with AL-41 representing the latest in Russian engine tech.


Iran on the other hand does regional maintenance on Russian helicopters and has been doing maintenance on Russian jets and submarines for decades. They are familiar with the Russian ecosystem to an extent.

The only Chinese fighter aircraft Iran has i believe is the F-7.

 

[TheSolution]

And what has that proven? Nothing. Pakistan has a lot of untested Chinese tech.

Iran’s missiles - tested in live combat

Iran’s UAVs - tested in live combat and against western air defenses and radars (see UAE and Saudi Arabia attacks)

Iran’s anti air missiles- both 351 and Sayyad have brought down advanced UAVs like Global Hawk or Chinese Drones like Loong (spelling?).

No one is saying Chinese tech isn’t capable, but to spend $5B+ on advanced fighters that you have zero track record of and your engineers are not familiar with the Chinese way of engineering is not a smart move.

WS-10 is a very new engine whose life span and capabilities are quite unknown where as AL family of jet engines has been around for over 40 years with AL-41 representing the latest in Russian engine tech.


Iran on the other hand does regional maintenance on Russian helicopters and has been doing maintenance on Russian jets and submarines for decades. They are familiar with the Russian ecosystem to an extent.

The only Chinese fighter aircraft Iran has i believe is the F-7.

It's not about the present, it's about the future

It's either make or break

 

[PakAlp]

once people see aircraft for what they actually are: Flying missile carriers

Then Irans strategy makes complete sense, and this strategy comes from bitter experience...

Iran has 2 choices right now with its limited resources:

1. Beg a foreign country for expensive planes.
2. Beg that foreign country for missiles and accompanying services for decades to come.
3. Having your entire national defense strategy in the hands of foreigners
4. Pray to god that on the day you actually need the planes, The conflict geopolitically aligns with the country that sold you the plane, and doesnt cut you off and makes your 300 billion dollar investment useless overnight,
5. Build massive, static, vulnerable infastracture like large airbases to give juicy targets for the enemy to easily cripple you.
6. Pray to god the enemy doesnt have a strong air-defense, as this would cause unacceptable casualties to any modern air force (look at the azerbaijan armenia war, and how useless the azeri airforce was.. it pretty much didnt even participate).
7. Face an enemy that has absolutely 0 air defense and your airforce has free reign to push buttons.
8. Make sure no harm comes to your expensive, precious planes costing hundreds of millions a peice, Their large accompanying infastracture, and a whole army of very specialized, hard to replace crews like pilots/mechanics.
9. Make absolute sure you avoid war with a serious country with air superiority (US, China , Russia) . As your entire air force will get slaughtered before it knows what hit it, regardless of how many hundreds of billions you throw in the toilet.
10. Pray that the country you begged and bought planes from, doesnt turn around and sell something better to your mortal enemy, forcing you into an eternal auction of trying to outbid the enemy and buy the latest crap.

choice #2: Go for missiles

1. you have complete control over the production of every single component.
2. You spends 1/10th of the money to build a far more survivable and potent force.
3. Every single dollar spent stays and gets spent in the local economy, instead of paying foreign countries to keep their industrial superiority on your dime.
4. It keeps a large, highly educated, and valuable workforce busy with work.
5. survivability
6. survivability
7.survivability
8. Did i mention survivablity? cause it is very very VERRRRRY important in war that saddam hussein learned the hard way.
9. i could literally go on and on about the pros of missiles.

while having planes doesnt hurt as they serve some purpose (mainly patrols and show of force). For Iran, whos enemies are a 100x times richer and better resourced, it doesnt make any sense at this current time to make a huge investment.

A minor upgrade of a few dozen planes for patrols wouldnt hurt though.

Iran has done really well with missile technology, they have made all sort of different home made missiles and have made their country a fortress. Cutting edge technology in land to land missiles, navy missiles, land to air missiles, cruise missiles. Who would dare to mess with Iran.

But they are making a mistake by not upgrading their airforce. They should buy 500 4th generation Jf17 block 3s, get the transfer of technology from China and produce Iranian missiles, avionics etc for it, produce all parts in Iran and this way they will not be sanctioned during war (or if Russia is offering any jet with same conditions then go for it)

If west and allies attack with 5000 fighter jets then without a doubt Iranian air force will be defeated but the 500 planes will be a deterrent and they also will be backed by all the missiles, so this will make Iran more stronger.

Country like Pakistan has nuclear weapons, with powerful missile force but they are still finding different ways to be stronger, like airforce, ships, submarines. Somebody can say why waste billions on navy and airforce when your a nuclear power. The answer is they want to make their defence strong from all angles. If for example Pakistan is hurt really bad then they will still be able to destroy enemies through submarines which will be quietly hiding in the ocean with nukes.

Iran needs missiles on submarines, airforce, ships, underground. Try any means necessary to defend themselves, keep the enemies worried .

When Iran shot missiles in to Iraq at Usa bases, all Iranian defences were on high alert for an American attack and they ended up shooting their own plane, if they had 500 planes in the air packed with missiles then the military generals would know Usa and allies will have to first deal with our air force before entering our airspace. The Iranian airforce would have been guarding the borders from the air with powerful missiles and the sea with powerful submarines/ships.

 

[kingQamaR]

Would you buy fighters from a country who just started (relatively speaking in comparison to Russia and US) it’s own fighters giving uncertainty to engine life span, maintenance needs, and performance or would you go with a tried and true company that has been around for 100 years and has a clearly demonstrated track record and whose platform your engineers are familiar with?


And what has that proven? Nothing. Pakistan has a lot of untested Chinese tech.

Iran’s missiles - tested in live combat

Iran’s UAVs - tested in live combat and against western air defenses and radars (see UAE and Saudi Arabia attacks)

Iran’s anti air missiles- both 351 and Sayyad have brought down advanced UAVs like Global Hawk or Chinese Drones like Loong (spelling?).

No one is saying Chinese tech isn’t capable, but to spend $5B+ on advanced fighters that you have zero track record of and your engineers are not familiar with the Chinese way of engineering is not a smart move.

WS-10 is a very new engine whose life span and capabilities are quite unknown where as AL family of jet engines has been around for over 40 years with AL-41 representing the latest in Russian engine tech.


Iran on the other hand does regional maintenance on Russian helicopters and has been doing maintenance on Russian jets and submarines for decades. They are familiar with the Russian ecosystem to an extent.

The only Chinese fighter aircraft Iran has i believe is the F-7.

I will try, Japanese started making cars in 1970s with no history of it. Guess what , they best car makers in Europe North America etc. if you got brains and money which China has lots of both of it nothing is impossible for them. They’ve flown in to space with there so called questionable technology “
China launched the core of its space station in April, and sent three astronauts up in June. But although the space station probably won’t be complete until late 2022, there is already a long queue of experiments from across the world waiting to go up. Scientists in China told Naturethat the China Manned Space Agency (CMSA) has tentatively approved more than 1,000 experiments, several of which have already been launched. I can only talk for PAF here not others who are happily using Chinese stuff. Our joint Chinese built jf17 fighter recently engaged and shot down Russian mighty SU30 with Israeli upgrades aboard it flown by Indians others ran back. According to experts before SU30 clash we were doomed the jf17 fighter proved itself and it now runs on China engine with no problem. Here’s your evidence on china there systems do worked and tested in real war by us.

 

[zartosht]

Iran has done really well with missile technology, they have made all sort of different home made missiles and have made their country a fortress. Cutting edge technology in land to land missiles, navy missiles, land to air missiles, cruise missiles. Who would dare to mess with Iran.

But they are making a mistake by not upgrading their airforce. They should buy 500 4th generation Jf17 block 3s, get the transfer of technology from China and produce Iranian missiles, avionics etc for it, produce all parts in Iran and this way they will not be sanctioned during war (or if Russia is offering any jet with same conditions then go for it)

If west and allies attack with 5000 fighter jets then without a doubt Iranian air force will be defeated but the 500 planes will be a deterrent and they also will be backed by all the missiles, so this will make Iran more stronger.

Country like Pakistan has nuclear weapons, with powerful missile force but they are still finding different ways to be stronger, like airforce, ships, submarines. Somebody can say why waste billions on navy and airforce when your a nuclear power. The answer is they want to make their defence strong from all angles. If for example Pakistan is hurt really bad then they will still be able to destroy enemies through submarines which will be quietly hiding in the ocean with nukes.

Iran needs missiles on submarines, airforce, ships, underground. Try any means necessary to defend themselves, keep the enemies worried .

When Iran shot missiles in to Iraq at Usa bases, all Iranian defences were on high alert for an American attack and they ended up shooting their own plane, if they had 500 planes in the air packed with missiles then the military generals would know Usa and allies will have to first deal with our air force before entering our airspace. The Iranian airforce would have been guarding the borders from the air with powerful missiles and the sea with powerful submarines/ships.

500 JF-17s would require the training of thousands of pilots, maintenance personnel, mechanics etc. A whole new infastracture for repair. And would make Irans airforce have large numbers of planes from China, Russia, and The US. Just imagine the logistical nightmare that would come from it.

secondly, the JF-17 is pretty much obsolete already against what is being fielded by the persian gulf arabs. let alone in 10 years~ time that would take for Iran to completely set up the whole training/infastracture eetc.etc..

Also their airbases would be extremely vulnerable to stand off weaponry... The cost to benefit ratio for Iran is almost non-existent.

Iran can make far better use of that money in other departments.

ALso look up Irans advances on supercavitating torpedos, mini subs, survivable mountain fortress missile cities, etc etc.... just because we havent gone all out for an airforce, doesnt mean were only relying on missles alone.

 

[Qutb-ud-din-Aibak]

once people see aircraft for what they actually are: Flying missile carriers

Then Irans strategy makes complete sense, and this strategy comes from bitter experience...

Iran has 2 choices right now with its limited resources:

1. Beg a foreign country for expensive planes.
2. Beg that foreign country for missiles and accompanying services for decades to come.
3. Having your entire national defense strategy in the hands of foreigners
4. Pray to god that on the day you actually need the planes, The conflict geopolitically aligns with the country that sold you the plane, and doesnt cut you off and makes your 300 billion dollar investment useless overnight,
5. Build massive, static, vulnerable infastracture like large airbases to give juicy targets for the enemy to easily cripple you.
6. Pray to god the enemy doesnt have a strong air-defense, as this would cause unacceptable casualties to any modern air force (look at the azerbaijan armenia war, and how useless the azeri airforce was.. it pretty much didnt even participate).
7. Face an enemy that has absolutely 0 air defense and your airforce has free reign to push buttons.
8. Make sure no harm comes to your expensive, precious planes costing hundreds of millions a peice, Their large accompanying infastracture, and a whole army of very specialized, hard to replace crews like pilots/mechanics.
9. Make absolute sure you avoid war with a serious country with air superiority (US, China , Russia) . As your entire air force will get slaughtered before it knows what hit it, regardless of how many hundreds of billions you throw in the toilet.
10. Pray that the country you begged and bought planes from, doesnt turn around and sell something better to your mortal enemy, forcing you into an eternal auction of trying to outbid the enemy and buy the latest crap.

choice #2: Go for missiles

1. you have complete control over the production of every single component.
2. You spends 1/10th of the money to build a far more survivable and potent force.
3. Every single dollar spent stays and gets spent in the local economy, instead of paying foreign countries to keep their industrial superiority on your dime.
4. It keeps a large, highly educated, and valuable workforce busy with work.
5. survivability
6. survivability
7.survivability
8. Did i mention survivablity? cause it is very very VERRRRRY important in war that saddam hussein learned the hard way.
9. i could literally go on and on about the pros of missiles.

while having planes doesnt hurt as they serve some purpose (mainly patrols and show of force). For Iran, whos enemies are a 100x times richer and better resourced, it doesnt make any sense at this current time to make a huge investment.

A minor upgrade of a few dozen planes for patrols wouldnt hurt though.

missiles? survivability? Brother Are You being serious?

 

[Beast]

Would you buy fighters from a country who just started (relatively speaking in comparison to Russia and US) it’s own fighters giving uncertainty to engine life span, maintenance needs, and performance or would you go with a tried and true company that has been around for 100 years and has a clearly demonstrated track record and whose platform your engineers are familiar with?


And what has that proven? Nothing. Pakistan has a lot of untested Chinese tech.

Iran’s missiles - tested in live combat

Iran’s UAVs - tested in live combat and against western air defenses and radars (see UAE and Saudi Arabia attacks)

Iran’s anti air missiles- both 351 and Sayyad have brought down advanced UAVs like Global Hawk or Chinese Drones like Loong (spelling?).

No one is saying Chinese tech isn’t capable, but to spend $5B+ on advanced fighters that you have zero track record of and your engineers are not familiar with the Chinese way of engineering is not a smart move.

WS-10 is a very new engine whose life span and capabilities are quite unknown where as AL family of jet engines has been around for over 40 years with AL-41 representing the latest in Russian engine tech.


Iran on the other hand does regional maintenance on Russian helicopters and has been doing maintenance on Russian jets and submarines for decades. They are familiar with the Russian ecosystem to an extent.

The only Chinese fighter aircraft Iran has i believe is the F-7.

Lol.. Iran shall move out of its own shelf and see the real world. China unproven tech? I think it must be a stroke of luck China manged to land a rover on Mars with no tech involved. Same as space station. Pure luck and no mature tech involved. A feat which ESA and Russian space agency still struggle.

The world is moving and it's moving in direction of China. People shall read up more and gain more latest knowledge and not keep dwell in last 20 years news.

China UCAV not proven? I don't know which world u are living? When our UCAV shooting ISIS, Iran UCAV still not born yet.

Just becos it's not involved in war, so you think the tech is not matured? U didn't know there is something called real life testing?

We put the machine into vigorious testing. Wet, dry, harsh realistic environment and thousand of realistic hours. Sometimes the testing is even harsher than real war environment with massive EW interference. Subject to even longer hours of working than a real war mission.

If not, how do we know our rover can land on Mars? By luck according to you? Same as our war machine we produced.

Your Iran produced a F-5EII fighter standard. What is the point? Shooting target only? Does it had AESA or even BVRAAM?

 

[Hack-Hook]

Your Iran produced a F-5EII fighter standard. What is the point? Shooting target only? Does it had AESA or even BVRAAM?

the point is when our 50-60kn engine become ready then our engineer have learned a lot about designing a light fighter and then we can have our light fighter jet . and by the way if we manage to made a PESA radar by then for the aircraft , I'd be glad .

 

[Beast]

the point is when our 50-60kn engine become ready then our engineer have learned a lot about designing a light fighter and then we can have our light fighter jet . and by the way if we manage to made a PESA radar by then for the aircraft , I'd be glad .

The engine of F-5EII cannot fit current doctrine. Low thrust, no FADEC and most importantly, high fuel consumption. Nobody nowadays used turbojet. Maybe on some low payload drone.

The J85 engine spec is even worst than China WP-14 Kunlun turbojet engine develop by China in the early 90s. There is no point producing those jets as they are extremely outdated. All the domestic tech learn might even hinder mastering modern aviation production.

 

[Hack-Hook]

The engine of F-5EII cannot fit current doctrine. Low thrust, no FADEC and most importantly, high fuel consumption. Nobody nowadays used turbojet. Maybe on some low payload drone.

The J85 engine spec is even worst than China WP-14 Kunlun turbojet engine develop by China in the early 90s. There is no point producing those jets as they are extremely outdated. All the domestic tech learn might even hinder mastering modern aviation production.

j-85 is a 17kn engine , I said 50-60kn engine at the time of unveiling of J-85 about 5 years ago that engine promised to be ready in two years but as many aware of Iran spending situation in recent years that didn't realized but it don't mean it was abandoned because supreme leader himself complained about the situation of the air-force and that means something will be done about it and the first thing would be channel some fund to the engine development program as funds channeled to other aviation project like 72 passenger commercial jet that was supposed to replace Iran-140 after the program get cancelled

by the wat about FADEC , when they unveiled OWJ aka J-85 they said if it be necessary they are capable of adding it to the engine

 

[Beast]

j-85 is a 17kn engine , I said 50-60kn engine at the time of unveiling of J-85 about 5 years ago that engine promised to be ready in two years but as many aware of Iran spending situation in recent years that didn't realized but it don't mean it was abandoned because supreme leader himself complained about the situation of the air-force and that means something will be done about it and the first thing would be channel some fund to the engine development program as funds channeled to other aviation project like 72 passenger commercial jet that was supposed to replace Iran-140 after the program get cancelled

by the wat about FADEC , when they unveiled OWJ aka J-85 they said if it be necessary they are capable of adding it to the engine

If Iran is capable, they would have replicate a F-4 rather than F-5EII. The J79 turbojet has decent thrust to weight ratio and bigger F-4 phantom meaning more room for upgrade and the plane has more range due to more fuel carry. But I guess, F-4 proves more difficult to made domestic compare to F-5EII.

 

[925boy]

Mate do not always be a a big cry baby when it’s comes to outsiders talking on your strengths and weakness.

can u argue my points or you're just going to start arguing me because you have no point?